$48 million allocated to terrorism prevention – worthwhile?
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I think the point here is that a fence is more to keep the innocent idiots from wandering onto an active airfield.
I think that pax screening and bag screening is more important as you could walk onto a regional aircraft bound for SYD or any capital city with any sort of weapon.
I suggest you look at todays news for the New Zealand incident....apparently no security in this case prior to boarding.
I think that pax screening and bag screening is more important as you could walk onto a regional aircraft bound for SYD or any capital city with any sort of weapon.
I suggest you look at todays news for the New Zealand incident....apparently no security in this case prior to boarding.
The ASIC card is actually a worthwhile, although belated, response to the threat of people using false identities or having concealed backgrounds from accessing flight training (a la the 9/11 gang), or obtaining bonefide access to the airside of airports.
Eg., Kev Smith wants a job as an airport cleaner. Once, all he would have to do is (maybe) show his drivers licence and a couple of references to the prospective employer, and Kev’s in. Now he has to have a background check and have the results of that check tied to a photo ID if successful. If, for example, the background check indicates a few blanks then Kev may not get the ASIC card (and the job). It might even detect that Kev’s blond deadlocks, board shorts and VB t-shirt are really fakes and Kev is really Abdul Baklava al-Jihardi.
Regional airports with cameras, fences and keypad locks ?? Great news for fencing contractors. Affordable security is when you can only afford to put the fence ˝ way around the airport like at most places. Maybe the $48 mil will go to fencing the other ˝ at the places that got the terminal sides done a couple of years ago. (Often wondered why they didn’t fence the back half first…?)
Threats to aircraft now are more likely to be from fruitloops, not Islamic extremists – the latter, with more rationality, will find a work-around to a less defended path towards their goals (unless they’ve stuffed up by yapping about their plans on the phone while standing outside the Mosque, etc).
It will be interesting to see what was the reaction of the pax on the NZ aircraft (no cabin crew ?) when hijacker-babe starting slashing away.
And because of that incident I reckon we might see scanners and explosive detection Indians in Chubb uniforms at Tennant Creek pretty soon . (Otherwise, if it happens in Oz, someone in DOTARDS will get the blame for it).
Eg., Kev Smith wants a job as an airport cleaner. Once, all he would have to do is (maybe) show his drivers licence and a couple of references to the prospective employer, and Kev’s in. Now he has to have a background check and have the results of that check tied to a photo ID if successful. If, for example, the background check indicates a few blanks then Kev may not get the ASIC card (and the job). It might even detect that Kev’s blond deadlocks, board shorts and VB t-shirt are really fakes and Kev is really Abdul Baklava al-Jihardi.
Regional airports with cameras, fences and keypad locks ?? Great news for fencing contractors. Affordable security is when you can only afford to put the fence ˝ way around the airport like at most places. Maybe the $48 mil will go to fencing the other ˝ at the places that got the terminal sides done a couple of years ago. (Often wondered why they didn’t fence the back half first…?)
Threats to aircraft now are more likely to be from fruitloops, not Islamic extremists – the latter, with more rationality, will find a work-around to a less defended path towards their goals (unless they’ve stuffed up by yapping about their plans on the phone while standing outside the Mosque, etc).
It will be interesting to see what was the reaction of the pax on the NZ aircraft (no cabin crew ?) when hijacker-babe starting slashing away.
And because of that incident I reckon we might see scanners and explosive detection Indians in Chubb uniforms at Tennant Creek pretty soon . (Otherwise, if it happens in Oz, someone in DOTARDS will get the blame for it).
From what I understand, this airport security fencing, ASIC, etc, came in as a result of nine-11. The idea of this security aparently is to stop the religious fanatics getting an aircraft and flying into some target.
Seems to me, the 'target' aparently was what the nine 11 bad boys were about - not the aircraft as such.
It may be we pilots are doing what the politicians did post nine-11, and that is, focusing on the tools used, rather then what the fanatics were out to achieve.
I do not think fencing reginal airports, and having private pilots wear ASICs will stop any future terrorism.
As Ive mentioned in one of my more flippant posts, it may very well be some nutter gets an old 20,000 litre water truck, cleans it out, makes some modifications, puts in 20,000 litres of petrol, and off they go to the nearest school... maybe several nutters, and several schools.
Do we fence of every possible terrorism 'tool' ?
My thoughts are the money would have been better put directly into our security organisations. Any futur funds earmarked for airport fencing would be better put towards the boundary fence around Oz (is there still a forein crew sit-in going on at the customs vessel in Darwin?)
Seems to me, the 'target' aparently was what the nine 11 bad boys were about - not the aircraft as such.
It may be we pilots are doing what the politicians did post nine-11, and that is, focusing on the tools used, rather then what the fanatics were out to achieve.
I do not think fencing reginal airports, and having private pilots wear ASICs will stop any future terrorism.
As Ive mentioned in one of my more flippant posts, it may very well be some nutter gets an old 20,000 litre water truck, cleans it out, makes some modifications, puts in 20,000 litres of petrol, and off they go to the nearest school... maybe several nutters, and several schools.
Do we fence of every possible terrorism 'tool' ?
My thoughts are the money would have been better put directly into our security organisations. Any futur funds earmarked for airport fencing would be better put towards the boundary fence around Oz (is there still a forein crew sit-in going on at the customs vessel in Darwin?)
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 17th Feb 2008 at 08:35. Reason: tidy up
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Couldn't agree more with the above posts but given the events in Godzone this morning the intelligence services still have a way to go.
I hope the two pilots of the Jetstream have a quick recovery from their wounds.
I hope the two pilots of the Jetstream have a quick recovery from their wounds.
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The problem here is that too many of us are thinking inside the box mainly because of our culture.If I was to suggest what happened in New York but a few years earlier I would have been laughed at...
There are a few different types of people that would consider a hijacking of an aircraft.
The first is the professional for want of a better word.They are either motivated by a political purpose or some other purpose such as religion or some other cause and they want to make a statement.
The second is the unstable/disturbed etc person who are usually not acting rationally and just wants to end it all and have not thought about or to be honest care about anyone else because of their mental state.
Fencing remote airfields will only keep out the fools.
However,pax screening and baggage screening is another matter and if present in Blenheim probably have prevented this incident.I'm sure the pilots involved wish she did not have a knife on her when she boarded and that is not a knee jerk reaction.
To those who suggest that aviation is not the target anymore are wrong I believe because it gives both the above groups a chance to make a spectacular statement.
Imagine a number of turbo prop aircraft from different regional airports hijacked and the Harbour Bridge in Sydney as the target.If successful it would not only cripple Sydney's traffic flow but cripple regional air traffic as well simply as a result of the terror aspect and the highly visual result.
I'm not sure of todays purpose in New Zealand but screening could very well have prevented it.
There are a few different types of people that would consider a hijacking of an aircraft.
The first is the professional for want of a better word.They are either motivated by a political purpose or some other purpose such as religion or some other cause and they want to make a statement.
The second is the unstable/disturbed etc person who are usually not acting rationally and just wants to end it all and have not thought about or to be honest care about anyone else because of their mental state.
Fencing remote airfields will only keep out the fools.
However,pax screening and baggage screening is another matter and if present in Blenheim probably have prevented this incident.I'm sure the pilots involved wish she did not have a knife on her when she boarded and that is not a knee jerk reaction.
To those who suggest that aviation is not the target anymore are wrong I believe because it gives both the above groups a chance to make a spectacular statement.
Imagine a number of turbo prop aircraft from different regional airports hijacked and the Harbour Bridge in Sydney as the target.If successful it would not only cripple Sydney's traffic flow but cripple regional air traffic as well simply as a result of the terror aspect and the highly visual result.
I'm not sure of todays purpose in New Zealand but screening could very well have prevented it.
I agree with most of your post lowerlobe, but I will change the wording of part of it -
Imagine a number of pasenger coachs from different regional towns hijacked and the Harbour Bridge in Sydney as the target.If successful it would not only cripple Sydney's traffic flow but cripple regional coach traffic as well simply as a result of the terror aspect and the highly visual result.
probably need a couple of fuel bombs in the bus luggage bay
Imagine a number of pasenger coachs from different regional towns hijacked and the Harbour Bridge in Sydney as the target.If successful it would not only cripple Sydney's traffic flow but cripple regional coach traffic as well simply as a result of the terror aspect and the highly visual result.
probably need a couple of fuel bombs in the bus luggage bay
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 17th Feb 2008 at 08:37.
"Imagine a number of turbo prop aircraft from different regional airports hijacked and the Harbour Bridge in Sydney as the target."
Methinks you underestimate the "Coathanger"!
Dr
Methinks you underestimate the "Coathanger"!
Dr
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Forget fences and go for the bags. That is the only answer. Bag screening isnt' new; it's been around for yonks. I can remember getting stopped at ML in 1989 trying to board a Metro for AY. The bag screen had revealed a "handgun" in my briefcase. It was a rivet tool. Once they were sweet with that, I was allowed to go on, complete with rivet tool. Not much chance of that now, considering I was prevented from taking a vernier on a JQ LT-ML flight a few years back.
And forget ASICs for air crew. We are security-checked on our licences. That should be enough.
Walrus
And forget ASICs for air crew. We are security-checked on our licences. That should be enough.
Walrus
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It does not matter if it's the Coat hangar or the CenterPoint Tower..it is the symbolism just as it was with the World Trade Center,the Pentagon and possibly the White House.
Flying Binghi....2 points..
1:A number of aircraft hitting the bridge I think would have a far bigger visual impact because it is a very big and popular form of transport.
2:I agree that it does not take much to hijack a petrol tanker or bus but ask yourself the question... "If it is far easier to do that why then has it not been done"
I think the answer goes back to point #1 and that is that aircraft have a far bigger visual impact.Look at how many people die on the roads every day of the year around the world.Yet an aircraft that lands with loss of power in LHR and no fatalities is on pages1,2,3 etc..for days...Even if the 777 had had a completely catastrophic crash the loss of life is small compared to how many people are killed on the roads around the world.
ForkTailedDrKiller...No I don't underestimate the strength of the bridge but a few aircraft hits on the bridge would only have to close it for a few months if they don't actually bring it down.Sydney's traffic is chaotic during peak hour at the best of times but imagine if the bridge was unuseable.
I agree that there are other targets that terrorists could use but does that mean that we just chuck this in the too hard basket and do nothing.Certainly pax screening and bag screening is the most effective way to stop the majority of problems.
The problem with any public expenditure is that there is always someone who would want to spend that money on their own pet projects.
Flying Binghi....2 points..
1:A number of aircraft hitting the bridge I think would have a far bigger visual impact because it is a very big and popular form of transport.
2:I agree that it does not take much to hijack a petrol tanker or bus but ask yourself the question... "If it is far easier to do that why then has it not been done"
I think the answer goes back to point #1 and that is that aircraft have a far bigger visual impact.Look at how many people die on the roads every day of the year around the world.Yet an aircraft that lands with loss of power in LHR and no fatalities is on pages1,2,3 etc..for days...Even if the 777 had had a completely catastrophic crash the loss of life is small compared to how many people are killed on the roads around the world.
ForkTailedDrKiller...No I don't underestimate the strength of the bridge but a few aircraft hits on the bridge would only have to close it for a few months if they don't actually bring it down.Sydney's traffic is chaotic during peak hour at the best of times but imagine if the bridge was unuseable.
I agree that there are other targets that terrorists could use but does that mean that we just chuck this in the too hard basket and do nothing.Certainly pax screening and bag screening is the most effective way to stop the majority of problems.
The problem with any public expenditure is that there is always someone who would want to spend that money on their own pet projects.
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Could you imagine the security requirements that we would have to endure if a few "people" got together and exploded a small bomb (it wouldn't have to destroy too much) in a few well attended shopping halls on say 24th December.
I can see electronic ID coming on.
I can see electronic ID coming on.
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airmuster...
There are a few shopping centers in Manila that have metal detectors because of that very problem but from memory is was not such a huge problem....
There are a few shopping centers in Manila that have metal detectors because of that very problem but from memory is was not such a huge problem....
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After the events in NZ today, any talk of changing the current stance on screening, ASICs, cabin security etc is going to be a waste of time.
Standby for far more presciptive procedures to arrive at an airport near you soon!!!
Standby for far more presciptive procedures to arrive at an airport near you soon!!!
Not to mention paying for STCs for armoured flight deck doors on regional turbo props..
Oh yeah, if you are going to get your anti-terrorist fence all the way around the airport, all you are going to do is keep out the larger nocturnal carnivores and herbivores, so you get a kind of mini wildlife refuge = bird sanctury, unless you cut ALL of the grass and bushes down inside the fence at regional strips.
Oh yeah, if you are going to get your anti-terrorist fence all the way around the airport, all you are going to do is keep out the larger nocturnal carnivores and herbivores, so you get a kind of mini wildlife refuge = bird sanctury, unless you cut ALL of the grass and bushes down inside the fence at regional strips.
Islander Jock,
If the N.Z. incident had happened in Oz, how would the pilot having an ASIC and the airport being fenced, made any diference what-so-ever ?
Cabin security - yes, maybe...
If the N.Z. incident had happened in Oz, how would the pilot having an ASIC and the airport being fenced, made any diference what-so-ever ?
Cabin security - yes, maybe...
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What's a terrosrist main reason for doing what they do??......sure it's got a lot to do with their silly religion but I believe the main reason they create havoc is to cause as much FEAR as possible to promote their beliefs. The public in general will after the event do the rest by way of reaction! These fanatics only have to start the process, no more, the fear & thought that it might occur anytime anywhere will continue their ideals/beliefs.
Being alert is all that we can procactively do from now on. It's a brave new world out there now & aviation is just a 'tool' for these missguided individuals/groups to use at their discretion.
CW
Being alert is all that we can procactively do from now on. It's a brave new world out there now & aviation is just a 'tool' for these missguided individuals/groups to use at their discretion.
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.............where's the weakest link prior to boarding an A/C ?................answer this & rectify it we will go a long way to preventing such events as the NZ anguish. And afterall this woman wasn't in a normal state of mind. Until she boarded that A/C she obviously wasn't too much of a threat to the public otherwsie she would have been elsewhere, (such as detention). To her it was something that she felt she needed to do for whatever reasons. To protect us from those reasons no matter how insane they where is where the problem lies.
We`learn, we do & we once again wait!
CW
We`learn, we do & we once again wait!
CW
Flying Binghi....2 points..
1:A number of aircraft hitting the bridge I think would have a far bigger visual impact because it is a very big and popular form of transport.
2:I agree that it does not take much to hijack a petrol tanker or bus but ask yourself the question... "If it is far easier to do that why then has it not been done"
1:A number of aircraft hitting the bridge I think would have a far bigger visual impact because it is a very big and popular form of transport.
2:I agree that it does not take much to hijack a petrol tanker or bus but ask yourself the question... "If it is far easier to do that why then has it not been done"
I dont think there will be much chance of a petrol tanker being hijacked, they are fairly well monitered now.
What I think could be used is either a converted water truck or a tip truck with a tank in the back. The fuel is easily available. A car can be used to purchase small amounts without any notice being taken - should only take a few weeks to fill a 20,000 litre tank.
Once this device (or several) is used I think it will give the spectacular results the media crave, and horrifie the public.
Probably the reason it has not happened yet is the bad guys hav'nt got to it yet, or because the Oz security are on to these groups.
This fuel truck idea is only one of hundreds of different possibilities. I use it as an example because it has been covered before in the news media and various forums.
What concerns me with this apparent focus on aircraft being the only way for the fanatics to deliver their dramatic incident, is how it just keeps adding costs and imposts on pilots and regional airports. I have heard some say the ASIC is only a few dollars every year, and the fenceing costs are covered by the taxpayer, but unforetunatly it never ends - every year there is a little more cost, more restrictions. In the end, no flying.
And if there were no aircraft in Oz... will it stop terrorist events - NO
Terrorists do not need aircraft to do their deeds - they are oppertunists and will use anything.
As we all know, light aircraft and regional passenger services are an essential part of rural Australia. From Ag work to the many passenger flights to remote Aboriginal communities.
ASICs and airport fenceing will not stop terrorists because they do not need aircraft - the money would be better directed to the security services themselves.
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I dont think there will be much chance of a petrol tanker being hijacked, they are fairly well monitered now.
it would be harder to fall out of bed.
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There are so many possibilities of all types of transport for the terrorists to use that any sort of restriction placed on them is merely window dressing as guess what, terrorists don't obey laws and there are so many ways around them it isn't funny. Also there are so many targets that would disrupt the country that it is also impossible to defend them. However the actual physical target is irrelevant! This is because the physical target is merely a means to spread "terror". A terrorist doesn't give a stuff that he killed 3000 people on 9/11, he doesn't care that they killed 88 Aussies in Bali in the first attack. What he cares about is how it affects our psyche. Ie we now live in fear, we look over our shoulder, we look questioningly at those who may be a little different to us. It is how we have to change our values, what we now have to put up with in order to go about our everyday lives.
Think about that, now the terrorists have caused us to completely change the way we go about air travel. The police can stop and search someone for NO reason and there are many many others that most people don't even know about.
How much do we as a society accept as changes to our fundamental values of freedom etc before we say enough is enough and accept that perhaps these terrorists are winning and further curtailing the freedoms of our society is NOT the way to combat these scum bags. People are generally honest so they simply say that these changes don't affect me because I have nothing to hide. This is not the point, the point is you now have no control or RIGHT to privacy.
As I said in my first post and as others have reiterated, the only way to combat these people is through a very well resourced intelligence service and those who can act on that intelligence. The problem we have here is the intelligence services have to get it right EVERY SINGLE TIME! The bad guys only have to get it right once. This is the fundamental struggle we now have. How much freedom do we give up in order to combat these forces whilst still being able to enjoy all the things we expect from western society? Maybe it requires a mindset change on part of our society to simply accept a terrorist attack as inevitable. The only way I would do that is to know that our Intel and security forces have all the resources they can possibly need (might be an extra $48M? from fences (sic)), balanced against my freedoms as an individual. All I know is that I will not see the end of this "War" in my lifetime, but I do hope my kids get to enjoy the freedoms I have had up to this point...
Cheers
Mr B
p.S. What is refreshing is that people here are discussing it. We need more of it and we need more people to say hey, I don't care that there is nothing visible being done, as long as you continue to work behind the scenes in those areas I would rather not know about in order to keep me and mine as safe as humanly possible. But I still want to be able to go to the corner shop for a bottle of milk without being stopped searched and ID checked. As this is not how our society should be regardless of the threat...
Think about that, now the terrorists have caused us to completely change the way we go about air travel. The police can stop and search someone for NO reason and there are many many others that most people don't even know about.
How much do we as a society accept as changes to our fundamental values of freedom etc before we say enough is enough and accept that perhaps these terrorists are winning and further curtailing the freedoms of our society is NOT the way to combat these scum bags. People are generally honest so they simply say that these changes don't affect me because I have nothing to hide. This is not the point, the point is you now have no control or RIGHT to privacy.
As I said in my first post and as others have reiterated, the only way to combat these people is through a very well resourced intelligence service and those who can act on that intelligence. The problem we have here is the intelligence services have to get it right EVERY SINGLE TIME! The bad guys only have to get it right once. This is the fundamental struggle we now have. How much freedom do we give up in order to combat these forces whilst still being able to enjoy all the things we expect from western society? Maybe it requires a mindset change on part of our society to simply accept a terrorist attack as inevitable. The only way I would do that is to know that our Intel and security forces have all the resources they can possibly need (might be an extra $48M? from fences (sic)), balanced against my freedoms as an individual. All I know is that I will not see the end of this "War" in my lifetime, but I do hope my kids get to enjoy the freedoms I have had up to this point...
Cheers
Mr B
p.S. What is refreshing is that people here are discussing it. We need more of it and we need more people to say hey, I don't care that there is nothing visible being done, as long as you continue to work behind the scenes in those areas I would rather not know about in order to keep me and mine as safe as humanly possible. But I still want to be able to go to the corner shop for a bottle of milk without being stopped searched and ID checked. As this is not how our society should be regardless of the threat...
Mr Bomb,
100% agree with you.
All that I would add, is that we need to insure that our political and legal system have full and proper control of our inteligence agencys.
Also better add, that I dont see the ASIC as of much use for inteligence gathering.
100% agree with you.
All that I would add, is that we need to insure that our political and legal system have full and proper control of our inteligence agencys.
Also better add, that I dont see the ASIC as of much use for inteligence gathering.
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 9th Feb 2008 at 21:45.