$48 million allocated to terrorism prevention – worthwhile?

[bilbert]

Ah! the 'Theoretical Terrorist' strikes again.

[Stationair8]

For an interesting article on the terrorist threat, read the January issue of Professional Pilot and what could be realistically done by a terrorist group.
I don't think holding an Asic card would be much use.

[Capt Wally]

'kev9' I am aware of the theory that the whole 9/11 attack wasn't a terrorist assualt. I personally believe that what's widely recognized as being true (Terror attack) was/is true. I can see whay some would think otherwise from all the theories to say/show otherwise but the fact still remains. It was an assault on the American people their minds their way of alife for whom I feel nothing but utter sadness for, can't imagine what it would have been like to be anyway involved in that awful event.

Security is a way of life not only in the aviation industry but everywhere that humans think they can gain something for whatever idiotic cause they believe in by way of terror. The actual impact (for want of a better word) of the 9/11 event wasn't so much the result of the collapsed buildings it was the fear that was leveled in all good people out there, that fear will last forever!
That's the part that's hard to fight, the fear, not the actual attacks which sadly will continue albeit less thru vigilant well placed security proceedures & there's nothing we can do about it to stop it completely !!

CW

[Kev9]

Well stated Capt Wally.

But when you realize that the attack was done by your own Government (or certain people within it), life is further in a black hole. When the slaughter of 3000 people is a whim for someone, its impossible to get back to that level of security.
AUS Aviation Security, as stated by you is best attained by our vigilance while on the job. The Government has put in place the security fences, the rest is ours.



ps. What are the chances that another False Flag attack will occur before November '08?
Therefore more money for Aviation Security...Tenfold.

[Capt Wally]

'kev9' interesting how you believe that 9/11 was 'staged' to some degree by the very people who we would all like to think wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. I'm not going to judge you or anyone else whom also may believe it was 'false flagged' we live in a somethimes strange society anyway. But we are all to some degree born equal, what happened along the way to make you (& others) feel different to the masses? Hard Q to answer am sure but curiosity is a huge human trait.

If it where to happen again, another 9/11 event then life would still go on, but not for all of us. Humans are very frail, we either 'fight or flight'. Amazing what a mother will do when she sees/hears her own child in distress, let's hope that mankind can reamain a 'mother' !

CW

[Kev9]

Capt Wally
Interesting that Hillary Clinton last night called Dick Cheny 'Darth Vader'.
You can start anywhere but start here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02338652678634

Internet is your friend...

To the other Dick sorry to hijack your thread...stopping now.

[Dick Smith]

This is a fantastic thread and shows the best advantages of PPRuNe. There are lots of different opinions and some really good information which most of us would not have known.

Capt Claret, your post with the article from the New York Times is extraordinary. Wouldn’t it be great if we could get that article reprinted in an Australian paper? I’ll see what I can do.

I totally agree with post #30. I won’t mention the posters name here because I may get put on some type of security list. However, I would like to see the enormous amount of money which has been going into fences at country airports (and the ridiculous ASIC system – the US does not even have an equivalent) put more towards intelligence.

It would be good to see the Federal Police and their associates better funded, because surely that is the most effective way of spending the dollars we have available.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Dick

I don't think the ASIC is necessarily a big deal. Having people wear some sort of ID when airside probably makes sense. Its the cost and having to go through all of the cr*p every two years to renew it that's a pain.

Dr

[Kev9]

Dick

your quote

'I totally agree with post #30. I won’t mention the posters name here because I may get put on some type of security list. However, I would like to see the enormous amount of money which has been going into fences at country airports (and the ridiculous ASIC system – the US does not even have an equivalent) put more towards intelligence.'

A shock to a lot of people is that 'intelligence' in fact has bought us to this situation directly and deliberately for whatever their big picture is.
Could be wrong....

[gassed budgie]

"To be tactful about these things, a lot of what we do is to make people feel better as opposed to actually achieve an outcome"

The above quote was from a speech given by Senator Amanda Vanstone in Adelaide. At least she had enough honesty and enough guts to stick her hand up and say what everyone else knew to be the case. The frenzied response from the media, the then opposition and her own political collegues was astounding. But as to be expected, it was typically dishonest and oppotunistic.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...1-2702,00.html

As Mr.Bomb suggested it's about perception and nothing more. But it's that aspect that really bugs me. If it was actually doing some good and was making a positive contribution towards the security issues constantly being highlighted by those in all levels of government, fair enough. But it's not. It's not doing anything at all. It might give the local contractor a bit of work (and good on them), but that's about it.
Slowly but surely the nanny state mentality is permeating through to all sections of the bureacracy and to all levels of government. We evidentally can't be trusted to look after ourselves anymore, so governments at all levels are going to do it for us. So we're going to have to cop the increased levels of surveillance, the increased levels of intrusion into our private affairs and the increased level of inconvienience at our local airport and everywhere else.
And why is that? So that the politicians can point to what they've done on our behalf which at least gives the perception that something was done to address the alledged problem. And you can't blame them. One can only imagine the hue and cry from the media and then the public if a terrorist act occurred within the country. The pollies would be hung out to dry.
We're to blame. There simply arn't enough people (voters) out there screwing their local me member down when they have an issue they're not happy with. They need to be reminded of the fact, that the government is there to serve the people and not the other way around. More legislation was passed through Parliament (Federal) between 1985 and 2005 than from Federation up until 1985. How much has been repealed ?
Our rights freedoms and privilages are being eroded away at an ever increasing rate. All in the name of perception. $48,000,000 for this? We deserve and should expect something better than that.

[crisper]

Your right here Dick. The money spent on airport security is a farce. For example: 24hr security at AYE. The security personnel caused more trouble doing doughnuts around the windsocks and vasis when they were bored at night than they were worth. And is Osama really going to initiate an attack from the most isolated major airport is australia - get real. I've just seen a tribe of Feds conduct an operation at a major WA airport - dogs etc. We see them here quite often. The fishing is good. Now they have got onto the WA police PC-12 fishing rods and all and headed of to another nice very isolated location to do some more fishing..... I mean security. This must be costing the taxpayer a fortune. There's hardly a regional airport in Aus that you couldn't jump the fence if you wanted to.

A friend of mine and his wife recently travelled through Brisbane/Melboune and Broome Airports with a "banned" object in her bag - namely a large nail file. Broome was the only security that picked it up - says a lot for major airports.

I suppose it all boils down to affordable safety. Err, sorry, I meant affordable security.

[Mr Bomb]

Dick, don't worry mate, in my job every time I have a conversation I would end up having my conversation recorded if the conspiracy theorists are to be believed...

The article by Capt Claret shows there is at least one thinking journo willing to speak publicly along the same lines.

Gassed budgie, you state "We deserve and should expect something better than that." well sadly I believe we don't. In your words we are a Nanny society and the pollies give us exactly what we collectively want. No one wants to know about the dirty work required to combat terrorists. Everyone cries out when the US uses torture to get info out of Terrorists (and no my statement does not mean I agree with torture it is just an example.) No one really wants to believe that there are bad people out there plotting how to kill them and wipe them and their kind out. Most would just rather go on (in this forum flying their aircraft) with everyday life and sit back and not worry about something that really we can do bugger all about.

Can people tell me here how the heck they think we can fight a group of people that are happy to die for their cause, in fact they welcome it? They place no value on this life, they place it on the next and if they can take as many of us "infidels" with us then they have done their part and will live on in paradise. There is no negotiation, there is no diplomacy. There is simply war and killing and they will not stop until we in democratic Christian societies are wiped from the face of the planet.

Kev9, people here have treated you with Nanny gloves but I will speak my mind as I have seen first hand a lot of what I talk about. If you believe what is written on the internet and the conspiracy theorists in the media 9/11 then you are very gullible (yes I realise the hypocrisy of my statement being on the internet... I digress). Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, although I do respect the way you have done it, you haven't shoved it down people throats instead just directed them to search for the conspiracy theories. Mate they don't stack up. 9/11 was real done by a real enemy to achieve real panic and "terror" in the minds of most western societies. 9/11 was NOT the start of the War on terror, it was simply a wake up to western societies that we are now bringing the war directly to you. The modern war against Islamic extremists has been going on since about 1947. Look up that date, it has something to do with the formation of Israel. The cold war simply covered it up for four decades.

I don't believe the West has the guts or determination to conduct this war and see it through. I fear my children will grow up in a world where there is much more terror than there is now, because western society as a whole doesn't have the stomach for it.

Kev9, I do definitely agree with you that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Reread my first post on this thread. Iraq was about an oil field that was up for grabs, just like Timor was about gas fields. Does anyone really think we would go to war with nothing but the "salvation" of people who are under a horrible regime as our goal. If we did then we have enough military resources in the west to simply stop all these regimes, but have a look at places that have no resources up for grabs, that have nothing to offer a Western society and you will find no one there trying to help those oppressed people.

Anyway I have waxed lyrical enough for now. All I hope is that people actually THINK about things and do question the powers that be so that we stop wasting money and resources on feel good things and actually direct those limited resources to areas that have a real effect.

Cheers
Mr B

[Flying Binghi]

When I was a young un growing up in Darwin, we had what we called 'cracker night'. For this special night, my dear old mum used to buy me a large box of assorted explosive goodies, that in total probably contained a couple of kilos of black powder. - lots of fun.

If I remember correctly, cracker nights proper name was 'Guy Fawkes' night. I think it was a celibration about somebody wanting to blow up parliment ?

Terrorism type actions have been around for a long time, certainly before 47 - just the names and reasons change

[Kev9]

Mr Bomb

'Kev9, people here have treated you with Nanny gloves but I will speak my mind as I have seen first hand a lot of what I talk about. If you believe what is written on the internet and the conspiracy theorists in the media 9/11 then you are very gullible (yes I realise the hypocrisy of my statement being on the internet... I digress). Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, although I do respect the way you have done it, you haven't shoved it down people throats instead just directed them to search for the conspiracy theories. Mate they don't stack up. 9/11 was real done by a real enemy to achieve real panic and "terror" in the minds of most western societies. 9/11 was NOT the start of the War on terror, it was simply a wake up to western societies that we are now bringing the war directly to you. The modern war against Islamic extremists has been going on since about 1947. Look up that date, it has something to do with the formation of Israel. The cold war simply covered it up for four decades.'



So who is the enemy who is shoving it down our throats?
Your immediate use of the word 'conspiracy' is an attempt to discredit any opposite opinion, smells of State.


The real enemy is in fact a real enemy, but it ain't those that you point a finger at.
Sure, Islamic mentalists have been around for 50 years, they are one of the enemies, but not the really ones. Can they really be blamed anyway, for the way their people have been slaughtered in the middle east by the Neo-Zionists for the last 100 years...
The suburban myth has us believing that a war has been raging
in the middle east for thousands of years. Early 1900's more to the point?
You wishing to quote history then I'm sure you are aware of the US actions leading to WW2 and Vietnam. 9/11?
Always need an enemy, now its the turn of Islam.
But there is and always should be a balanced view and opinion.
Sadly we as individuals get farked by these Neos whether Nazis, Conservatives or Zionists.
All probably the same group..anyway.

[bilbert]

Back to the thread. So they're spending $48m of taxpayers money on a junkett to tell regional airport operators they will have to spend more of their ratepayer funds to beef up security at the local airport used by the taxpayers of Australia. Would have thought that with the lack of any evidence of terrorist acts eminating from regional airports, that the present security arrangements are working quite well Eh!

[Flying Binghi]

I guess one way to check if the fencing security is working, is to enquire if the incidence of Hoons draining avgas has stoped. Not terrorism exactly, but it is aircraft tampering - if the Hoons can do it...

[Lodown]

with the lack of any evidence of terrorist acts emanating from regional airports

Bilbert, you are sure of that are you? The people making the decisions are trying to pre-empt evidence. They are paid to work on best guesses and hunches. Has anyone actually asked the people recommending airport fencing to justify their decision or are we all just making armchair observations? Maybe the Feds/ASIO figure they can screen passengers to a reasonable degree already based on their intelligence gathering ability, but they see the risk of a suicidal nut in a ute packed with stolen fertiliser looking for an easy target like a turboprop full of passengers and fuel, parked with engines running on the ramp (detonators included) as a significant threat in rural areas. That type of terrorist exploit would take out the aircraft, the terminal and everyone in them and would make the news around the world. The community effected would be a ghost town almost overnight.

Decisions have to be made on where to spend limited funds in areas where they'll do the most good. They know they can't stop everything, but they can put up some deterrents to make a despicable act that little more difficult to undertake, lessen the capacity for follow-up activities after one deed is done and ensure destruction and loss of life is somewhat contained and minimised. I would suggest erecting a fence near the terminal would simply be picking the low hanging fruit: relatively cheap and highly effective at reducing the opportunities for, and/or resulting damage from a horrendous act.

Good thing you're a pilot Kev9. You wouldn't be taken seriously as a journo, historian, scientist or in any other role that required an evaluation of facts.

[Walrus 7]

Now that Lindsay Tanner's hatchet brigade have demonstrated no fear in decapitating some of Howard's programs (did we really need a fishing hall of fame?) maybe the cost of indiscriminate security might be looked at more closely. Perhaps we need to point it out to them.

Walrus

[Dick Smith]

Lodown, the problem with your example (or any similar examples) is that the ute in question would simply drive through the gates and knock them down. Also, wouldn’t the ute just pull up beside one of those large buses in a country town – for these have a lot more passengers in them than many turbo-props.

I think you will find that the people making the decisions were simply reacting to politicians saying, “We must look as if we are doing something.” Hopefully we are now past that. Let’s hope more rational minds can start allocating the resources to where the risk is greatest.

[Lodown]

Perhaps you're right Dick. For that matter there are chlorine and ammonia tanks all over the countryside as well, but have you asked anyone with anti-terrorism training and experience their views on the subject?

Cars simply crash through gates in the movies. Not so simple in practice.

And where is the risk greatest Dick?