25 years of holding at Williamtown
Thread Starter
Peuce, it is extraordinary how your mind thinks – it appears to be set in concrete. No, I didn’t know there was a strong possibility of being held over water, because I could simply have asked the controller for an orbit over land.
As it has been pointed out on this very thread, a pilot does not always have to accept a clearance from a controller – especially if passengers in the aircraft are being needlessly endangered.
Gundog01, you may be right, however I believe that there is a chance that the military have changed. Why wouldn’t they? Surely they have seen the error of not asking advice in losing $1 billion on the Super Seasprites. Why wouldn’t they ask controllers in other countries about better ways of doing things?
I’m hoping the culture in the military of never asking advice will change. Then large amounts of money will be saved and our military pilots will have proven aircraft to fly.
As it has been pointed out on this very thread, a pilot does not always have to accept a clearance from a controller – especially if passengers in the aircraft are being needlessly endangered.
Gundog01, you may be right, however I believe that there is a chance that the military have changed. Why wouldn’t they? Surely they have seen the error of not asking advice in losing $1 billion on the Super Seasprites. Why wouldn’t they ask controllers in other countries about better ways of doing things?
I’m hoping the culture in the military of never asking advice will change. Then large amounts of money will be saved and our military pilots will have proven aircraft to fly.
Dick, you're not alone ... I worry about how my mind works sometimes too 
But, back to the issue ... you see, I'm still confused. You seemed to have an issue with Willy because you had a non-swimming doddler onboard ... and yet you now say that you don't have to accept a clearance over water anyway ... so where's the issue ?
Or is my mind playing tricks again ...
But, back to the issue ... you see, I'm still confused. You seemed to have an issue with Willy because you had a non-swimming doddler onboard ... and yet you now say that you don't have to accept a clearance over water anyway ... so where's the issue ?
Or is my mind playing tricks again ...
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One hopes you mean abeam Broughton Island. I wouldn't like to swim to the coast from there. The rest makes sense. The RAAF have been very precious about their airspace for a long time.
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The RAAF have been very precious about their airspace for a long time.
Civvies whining about not being able to use mil airspace is ridiculous. Look at all the G class airspace out there that can be used by all and sundry, just because people want to do a scenic trip with there wife and toddlers on board dosent mean mil ATC should change procedures.
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Gundog01;
Yes mate, I concur. However Willy has tiger country to the west and ocean to the east. The 500ft corridor is OK for fine day VFR and any western option is nothing I would contemplate SE VFR at night.
I have tracked Dubbo Bankstown NVFR direct in Richmond airspace with friendly help, over tiger country, but being watched. Makes you feel a bit better. Just co-operation really and you lot were probably in the mess anyway.
The concept of flight over the top is safe and easy to manage from an arrival and departure point of view. I have planned over Sydney, Brisbane at peak times (not recently however), and seems to be the best option unless ubrupt vertical manouvers are contemplated.
I wouldn't worry about the civvies mate, pretty soon there will be none left of the 'bottom feeders' so all you have to worry about is the regionals.
Pity really.
Yes mate, I concur. However Willy has tiger country to the west and ocean to the east. The 500ft corridor is OK for fine day VFR and any western option is nothing I would contemplate SE VFR at night.
I have tracked Dubbo Bankstown NVFR direct in Richmond airspace with friendly help, over tiger country, but being watched. Makes you feel a bit better. Just co-operation really and you lot were probably in the mess anyway.
The concept of flight over the top is safe and easy to manage from an arrival and departure point of view. I have planned over Sydney, Brisbane at peak times (not recently however), and seems to be the best option unless ubrupt vertical manouvers are contemplated.
I wouldn't worry about the civvies mate, pretty soon there will be none left of the 'bottom feeders' so all you have to worry about is the regionals.
Pity really.
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I agree gundog01, williamtown has been a defence airfield since February 1941 and has since agreed to share its area with civilian aircraft. I also know williamtown serves as a training grounds for not only its fast jet boys and girls but its new ATC staff also, and you can often sense the uncertancy over the radio while they're watched by there trainer. But I think we sould be lucky that we can still fly into willy since 9/11, and in fact any millitary airspace as a matter of fact. I have flown into willy hundreds of times and very rarely have we been held. Of course some 'unusual' clearances appear but take it or leave it....my two cents anyway
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'Gundog01, you may be right, however I believe that there is a chance that the military have changed. Why wouldn’t they? Surely they have seen the error of not asking advice in losing $1 billion on the Super Seasprites. Why wouldn’t they ask controllers in other countries about better ways of doing things?
I’m hoping the culture in the military of never asking advice will change. Then large amounts of money will be saved and our military pilots will have proven aircraft to fly.'
Now, by looking at my details you can tell that whilst having been a reader of PPRUNE for quite a while, I don't post very often. And, I've been drinking and playing golf all day... but I just can't handle some of the crap that comes out of some peoples mouths.
Dick, in your time in the military, did you not see how much the military asks for other users opinions? How much money is spent by sending people overseas for that exact reason? How many people are on exchanges, and how many people do we have here on echanges for that exact reason? Plenty, and that is not just the pilots, but other members also...
Yes, the military makes some mistakes (Seasprite), but it is also a unique user. For example, who does the RAAF ask for about information on a long range BBJ, or using the same airframe for AWACS? Does QANTAS do that? Does 34 SQN already ask these people for information? I would guess yes.
When it comes to the ATC situation ,maybe they don't want to change? Yes inconveniant to you, but sometimes **** happens. Same with people complaining about the range at Willy. Its been the same for a long time. Would it be better if the military just took the airspace and made it completely a restricted area like Pearce or Sale?
I know that would cause issues, and I would not like to see that happen, but for F@#$'s sake, try and remember what they are doing there. Training fast jet pilots to do a job that you have never had the opportunity or ability to do (and I am in the second group there). Unless you move the fast jet squadrons away, the problem of having civilians hold while the fast jet guys come back will always occur, because it will only take one screw up to cause a major issue. Of course moving the jet jocks all to Tindal will screw their retention issues.
I suppose, in my semi drunken stupor, what I'm trying to say is, yes the military takes a fairly conservative view on lighties passing through Willy. You know that. Get over it and stop f$#@ing with it. And how dare you insinutate that the RAAF doesn't ask for other opinions. Just because they don't tell you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen DICK.
I’m hoping the culture in the military of never asking advice will change. Then large amounts of money will be saved and our military pilots will have proven aircraft to fly.'
Now, by looking at my details you can tell that whilst having been a reader of PPRUNE for quite a while, I don't post very often. And, I've been drinking and playing golf all day... but I just can't handle some of the crap that comes out of some peoples mouths.
Dick, in your time in the military, did you not see how much the military asks for other users opinions? How much money is spent by sending people overseas for that exact reason? How many people are on exchanges, and how many people do we have here on echanges for that exact reason? Plenty, and that is not just the pilots, but other members also...
Yes, the military makes some mistakes (Seasprite), but it is also a unique user. For example, who does the RAAF ask for about information on a long range BBJ, or using the same airframe for AWACS? Does QANTAS do that? Does 34 SQN already ask these people for information? I would guess yes.
When it comes to the ATC situation ,maybe they don't want to change? Yes inconveniant to you, but sometimes **** happens. Same with people complaining about the range at Willy. Its been the same for a long time. Would it be better if the military just took the airspace and made it completely a restricted area like Pearce or Sale?
I know that would cause issues, and I would not like to see that happen, but for F@#$'s sake, try and remember what they are doing there. Training fast jet pilots to do a job that you have never had the opportunity or ability to do (and I am in the second group there). Unless you move the fast jet squadrons away, the problem of having civilians hold while the fast jet guys come back will always occur, because it will only take one screw up to cause a major issue. Of course moving the jet jocks all to Tindal will screw their retention issues.
I suppose, in my semi drunken stupor, what I'm trying to say is, yes the military takes a fairly conservative view on lighties passing through Willy. You know that. Get over it and stop f$#@ing with it. And how dare you insinutate that the RAAF doesn't ask for other opinions. Just because they don't tell you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen DICK.
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Hello Hands on Dick,
Please don't let your misguided aviation emotions get in the way of your PIC responsibilities when ATC directs somewhere that you think is not appropriate.
"I came down through the Williamtown airspace yesterday afternoon in my helicopter. On board were my wife and three grandchildren – one of whom is under two years old and can’t swim.
As I passed Port Stephens heading south and dropped to 500 feet, it became obvious that there were a number of IFR aircraft heading into Williamtown.
I dreaded what was going to happen"
If you KNOW, as you so often state, that Willie ATC put you out over the water....GET A FLAMING TWIN ENGINE HELICOPTER to keep your loved one safe.
All commercial pilots keep the UNKNOWN FARE PAYING PASSENGERS IN THE BACK, as safe as they would THEIR LOVED ONES.
Get the hint Hands-on-DICK, and get the bloody hell out of everyone else's AVIATION.
You are a bloody menace to normal aviation.
Please don't let your misguided aviation emotions get in the way of your PIC responsibilities when ATC directs somewhere that you think is not appropriate.
"I came down through the Williamtown airspace yesterday afternoon in my helicopter. On board were my wife and three grandchildren – one of whom is under two years old and can’t swim.
As I passed Port Stephens heading south and dropped to 500 feet, it became obvious that there were a number of IFR aircraft heading into Williamtown.
I dreaded what was going to happen"
If you KNOW, as you so often state, that Willie ATC put you out over the water....GET A FLAMING TWIN ENGINE HELICOPTER to keep your loved one safe.
All commercial pilots keep the UNKNOWN FARE PAYING PASSENGERS IN THE BACK, as safe as they would THEIR LOVED ONES.
Get the hint Hands-on-DICK, and get the bloody hell out of everyone else's AVIATION.
You are a bloody menace to normal aviation.
Thread Starter
Mag,I was in my Agusta 109e which is a twin. I avoid unnecessary orbiting at low levels over a rough ocean in any aircraft when I can; Most commercial pilots would do the same.
Plenty of twin engined helicopters have ditched over the years.
When the RAAF use internationally proven modern ATC procedures there is no need to hold aircraft orbiting at low levels over rough oceans.,
Try not be so angry.
Plenty of twin engined helicopters have ditched over the years.
When the RAAF use internationally proven modern ATC procedures there is no need to hold aircraft orbiting at low levels over rough oceans.,
Try not be so angry.
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Dick,
Have you looked into the legality of Military airspace extending more than 12nm off a sovereign state. Have a look at the ICAO regs, I believe that they turn a blind eye down here because we are so far from other countries.
Have you looked into the legality of Military airspace extending more than 12nm off a sovereign state. Have a look at the ICAO regs, I believe that they turn a blind eye down here because we are so far from other countries.
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Diak,
Please regale us with tales of adventure and daring of flying a light SINGLE engine from Lord Howe ISLAND to the mainland and how that was safe compared to your helochopter sojourn.
…and don’t forgit to add in the bit about the bad bad naught ‘ole CIVIL ATCs who would not let you over-fly Sydney.
Please regale us with tales of adventure and daring of flying a light SINGLE engine from Lord Howe ISLAND to the mainland and how that was safe compared to your helochopter sojourn.
…and don’t forgit to add in the bit about the bad bad naught ‘ole CIVIL ATCs who would not let you over-fly Sydney.
Dick Dick Dick...................you can't be serious?
You were in a twin turbine helo and were worried about engine failure and ditching?
What about when you fly IMC over tiger country with nice big trees? Do you pee your pants then too?
get a grip young fella, maybe you'd be happy flying in a 4 engine turbine helo if they made one!!
Try flying over the North Pole on 2 GE 90's then come back and tell me how you were seriously worried east of Willie. Can't say I'm too impressed when I find myself 3 1/2 hours from the nearest rwy in Winter in my 777, but there is a risk in all Aviation pal, if you can't stand the heat get your family out of the kitchen.
You can't be serious, can you??????????????????
nah it's a wind up.
I would think that there is more chance of some FA 18 jock shooting you down after reading this thread than you having a catastophic double engine failure!!
You were in a twin turbine helo and were worried about engine failure and ditching?
What about when you fly IMC over tiger country with nice big trees? Do you pee your pants then too?
get a grip young fella, maybe you'd be happy flying in a 4 engine turbine helo if they made one!!
Try flying over the North Pole on 2 GE 90's then come back and tell me how you were seriously worried east of Willie. Can't say I'm too impressed when I find myself 3 1/2 hours from the nearest rwy in Winter in my 777, but there is a risk in all Aviation pal, if you can't stand the heat get your family out of the kitchen.
You can't be serious, can you??????????????????
nah it's a wind up.
I would think that there is more chance of some FA 18 jock shooting you down after reading this thread than you having a catastophic double engine failure!!
Thread Starter
ACMS, I’ve had decades of seeing this resistance to change from people similar to yourself and the military people in Canberra only to see when changes are made how everyone then grasps the advantages.
For example, many years ago when flying from my home at Terrey Hills to the Dick Smith Electronics premises helipad at North Ryde (which was about 3 miles within the Sydney controlled airspace, but over 10 miles from the airport) I would be held at Hornsby. Sometimes I would be held orbiting for 5 minutes so I could be separated from the Channel 10 VFR helicopter, also approaching or departing North Ryde.
I worked for over 3 years in attempting to have the overseas procedures introduced in Australia. That is, in “controlled” airspace (that’s all we had in those days), VFR aircraft would not be separated from other VFR aircraft using a procedural or radar standard, but would simply be given traffic on each other.
After years of resistance from people such as yourself, it was decided that we should actually attempt this new procedure. When it was introduced, no longer did I (and others) have to hold over a built up area and schools at Hornsby, and the whole thing has worked well ever since.
It is the same with the Victor 1 lane. In the old days, if an aircraft wanted to do a flight along the coast it would require a flight plan and separation from other aircraft. I remember once being at Bondi Beach at 1,000 feet and I wanted to drop down to 500 feet where there was another helicopter. The air traffic controller – increasing his workload – directed me to fly to the Sydney Harbour Bridge so I was 3 miles from the other chopper, so it could climb and then I could return.
I proposed the Victor lane after seeing a similar lane at JFK airport in New York. It was resisted in every way, including a major campaign by ex-military man Alan Green at Qantas. He was convinced that if a Qantas aircraft taking off from 07 had an engine failure, it could drop into the Victor lane. Of course the odds of this happening without the light aircraft turning away and not running into the airliner are infinitesimal.
Eventually, after a year and a half of battling, the Victor lane was introduced, and it has been there ever since. It actually improves safety because approach air traffic controllers are not concentrating on VFR aircraft that are not collision hazards to airline aircraft.
I could give you many other examples of how concrete minded resistance to change – normally from military or ex-military people – has prevented important safety and efficiency improvements.
My post was praising the Williamtown controllers for sensibly allowing me to overfly the airfield rather than having me orbit and waste even more fuel over a rough ocean at a very low 500 foot level. There are times when it is difficult to minimise risk, but when it is easy (i.e. with modern internationally proven procedures that reduce the loading on air traffic controllers) why not use them?
For example, many years ago when flying from my home at Terrey Hills to the Dick Smith Electronics premises helipad at North Ryde (which was about 3 miles within the Sydney controlled airspace, but over 10 miles from the airport) I would be held at Hornsby. Sometimes I would be held orbiting for 5 minutes so I could be separated from the Channel 10 VFR helicopter, also approaching or departing North Ryde.
I worked for over 3 years in attempting to have the overseas procedures introduced in Australia. That is, in “controlled” airspace (that’s all we had in those days), VFR aircraft would not be separated from other VFR aircraft using a procedural or radar standard, but would simply be given traffic on each other.
After years of resistance from people such as yourself, it was decided that we should actually attempt this new procedure. When it was introduced, no longer did I (and others) have to hold over a built up area and schools at Hornsby, and the whole thing has worked well ever since.
It is the same with the Victor 1 lane. In the old days, if an aircraft wanted to do a flight along the coast it would require a flight plan and separation from other aircraft. I remember once being at Bondi Beach at 1,000 feet and I wanted to drop down to 500 feet where there was another helicopter. The air traffic controller – increasing his workload – directed me to fly to the Sydney Harbour Bridge so I was 3 miles from the other chopper, so it could climb and then I could return.
I proposed the Victor lane after seeing a similar lane at JFK airport in New York. It was resisted in every way, including a major campaign by ex-military man Alan Green at Qantas. He was convinced that if a Qantas aircraft taking off from 07 had an engine failure, it could drop into the Victor lane. Of course the odds of this happening without the light aircraft turning away and not running into the airliner are infinitesimal.
Eventually, after a year and a half of battling, the Victor lane was introduced, and it has been there ever since. It actually improves safety because approach air traffic controllers are not concentrating on VFR aircraft that are not collision hazards to airline aircraft.
I could give you many other examples of how concrete minded resistance to change – normally from military or ex-military people – has prevented important safety and efficiency improvements.
My post was praising the Williamtown controllers for sensibly allowing me to overfly the airfield rather than having me orbit and waste even more fuel over a rough ocean at a very low 500 foot level. There are times when it is difficult to minimise risk, but when it is easy (i.e. with modern internationally proven procedures that reduce the loading on air traffic controllers) why not use them?
Dick, can you come around and paint my house
You have such a broad brush.
Its like me saying that most business people I know are idiots because most new businesses go bust?!
I do have trouble understanding how you can slander military people but then also donate to the AWM and help provide a fine memorial.
I seriously think you need to check your emotion/passion for this topic and stop slandering the people/organisation. As I've said before defence is busy at the moment... leave a nice message and maybe when the wars/police actions/peacekeeping/disaster relief/famine relief is over your 'small issue' may get the intense attention you believe it requires!
Now as for the idea of overflying what height are you suggesting you overfly at and what height should an aircraft overshooting/missed approach should stop at?
You have such a broad brush.
Its like me saying that most business people I know are idiots because most new businesses go bust?!
I do have trouble understanding how you can slander military people but then also donate to the AWM and help provide a fine memorial.
I seriously think you need to check your emotion/passion for this topic and stop slandering the people/organisation. As I've said before defence is busy at the moment... leave a nice message and maybe when the wars/police actions/peacekeeping/disaster relief/famine relief is over your 'small issue' may get the intense attention you believe it requires!
Now as for the idea of overflying what height are you suggesting you overfly at and what height should an aircraft overshooting/missed approach should stop at?
Dick, You said:
"My post was praising the Williamtown controllers for sensibly allowing me to overfly the airfield rather than having me orbit and waste even more fuel over a rough ocean at a very low 500 foot level."
My sick mind at work again here, but just wondering:
Sorry, couldn't help myself.... I'm off to see my therapist
"My post was praising the Williamtown controllers for sensibly allowing me to overfly the airfield rather than having me orbit and waste even more fuel over a rough ocean at a very low 500 foot level."
My sick mind at work again here, but just wondering:
- Is it safer to fly over a smooth ocean than a rough ocean
- Is the reliability of the turbine engine in direct proportion to the roughness of the ocean below it? ... just like a piston engine is affected by flying over Tiger Country
- Or, perhaps the safety of the flight is determined by the number of "white pointers" below you ... as in your flight at 500ft over Bondi Beach
Sorry, couldn't help myself.... I'm off to see my therapist
A couple of e-mails, a couple of phone calls, a RAPAC meeting, a follow up visit and jobs done. And the message? Get on the blower, flight plan and get in early on the radio to give the boys and girls at Willie time to fit you in. It isn't rocket science. The gang up there at Willie are just doing a job. REMEMBER, it IS their sandpit afterall and their toys are a tad bit faster than ours. If we can just take a little time and be a bit more pro-active the wheels just get greased that bit more and EVERYONE is happy.
Great effort people
Great effort people
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From the Australian
Newcastle a defence base, not commercial
Steve Creedy | June 27, 2008
NEWCASTLE Airport is rapidly approaching the point where it will be incapable of absorbing additional commercial operations, the RAAF's incoming deputy chief has warned.
Air Commodore Geoff Brown, who is due to take over as Deputy Chief of Air Force from Air Vice-Marshal John Blackburn, warned at this week's Waypoint conference that commercial interests needed to temper the expectations for the facility.
The comments are another nail in the coffin of a briefly floated NSW proposal to develop Newcastle as a second Sydney airport.
Commercial flights at Newcastle Airport use the the Williamtown RAAF base runway and the air force is becoming increasingly sensitive to additional demands for commercial access. It has seen an escalating number of requests from airlines to expand the operational window allowing civil movements between 6am and 10pm.
Air Commodore Brown said the facility was effectively home to four fighter squadrons, including Hawk lead-in fighter squadron, and these would be joined by No2 squadron operating airborne early warning and control.
It also supported the Forward Air Control Development Unit operating PC9s.
Significant money had been spent recently on expanding Williamtown to support the AEW&C and Hawk facilities.
"As I stated previously, Williamtown is a defence base, established for defence operations," Air Commodore Brown said. "In its present state, like any other air field, it has finite capacity and I believe that we are rapidly approaching the point where the airfield will be incapable of absorbing additional commercial operations."
The NSW report, commissioned by Premier Morris Iemma and compiled by the chairman of Events NSW, John O'Neill, recommended building a fast train service linking Sydney and Newcastle to service an expanded international airport and said the needs of the RAAF would have to be managed appropriately.
Air Commodore Brown said he had no doubt that Williamtown could handle additional traffic if a proposed second runway and necessary terminal infrastructure were developed.
But he said this was an issue for government and warned that any such decision would need a thorough examination of the potential impact of any such development on RAAF operations on the ground and in the air.
"As an example, if Williamtown was to become a major international airport, what expectations would this generate with respect to the development of inbound and outbound air routes, which would necessarily be through areas where we would conduct most of our training.
"I'm of the opinion such an outcome would debilitate our capacity to train and, by extension, have unacceptable and deleterious affect on our operational capacity as an air force."
Air Commodore Brown also warned there was no magic bullet to solve airspace problems involving the need to strike the right balance between commercial interest and the ability of the RAAF to do its job.
He predicted pressures on airspace would increase as new aircraft such as multi-role tanker transport, the AEW&Cs, the Super Hornet and the Joint Strike Fighter came into service.
He warned against the belief that concepts such as flexible use of airspace (FUA) were waiting to be plucked off the shelf.
"Unfortunately, while concepts like FUA could well be achievable in future, there will be a requirement for significant advances in associated technologies, as well as the regulations, standards and procedures needed to underpin any such concept," he said.
I think it's time to move the RAAF base to say Evens Head, and let Newcastle Airport become the regions Second Major International Airport!, If the government has to build and pay for a second airport why not make it one for the RAAF....
Steve Creedy | June 27, 2008
NEWCASTLE Airport is rapidly approaching the point where it will be incapable of absorbing additional commercial operations, the RAAF's incoming deputy chief has warned.
Air Commodore Geoff Brown, who is due to take over as Deputy Chief of Air Force from Air Vice-Marshal John Blackburn, warned at this week's Waypoint conference that commercial interests needed to temper the expectations for the facility.
The comments are another nail in the coffin of a briefly floated NSW proposal to develop Newcastle as a second Sydney airport.
Commercial flights at Newcastle Airport use the the Williamtown RAAF base runway and the air force is becoming increasingly sensitive to additional demands for commercial access. It has seen an escalating number of requests from airlines to expand the operational window allowing civil movements between 6am and 10pm.
Air Commodore Brown said the facility was effectively home to four fighter squadrons, including Hawk lead-in fighter squadron, and these would be joined by No2 squadron operating airborne early warning and control.
It also supported the Forward Air Control Development Unit operating PC9s.
Significant money had been spent recently on expanding Williamtown to support the AEW&C and Hawk facilities.
"As I stated previously, Williamtown is a defence base, established for defence operations," Air Commodore Brown said. "In its present state, like any other air field, it has finite capacity and I believe that we are rapidly approaching the point where the airfield will be incapable of absorbing additional commercial operations."
The NSW report, commissioned by Premier Morris Iemma and compiled by the chairman of Events NSW, John O'Neill, recommended building a fast train service linking Sydney and Newcastle to service an expanded international airport and said the needs of the RAAF would have to be managed appropriately.
Air Commodore Brown said he had no doubt that Williamtown could handle additional traffic if a proposed second runway and necessary terminal infrastructure were developed.
But he said this was an issue for government and warned that any such decision would need a thorough examination of the potential impact of any such development on RAAF operations on the ground and in the air.
"As an example, if Williamtown was to become a major international airport, what expectations would this generate with respect to the development of inbound and outbound air routes, which would necessarily be through areas where we would conduct most of our training.
"I'm of the opinion such an outcome would debilitate our capacity to train and, by extension, have unacceptable and deleterious affect on our operational capacity as an air force."
Air Commodore Brown also warned there was no magic bullet to solve airspace problems involving the need to strike the right balance between commercial interest and the ability of the RAAF to do its job.
He predicted pressures on airspace would increase as new aircraft such as multi-role tanker transport, the AEW&Cs, the Super Hornet and the Joint Strike Fighter came into service.
He warned against the belief that concepts such as flexible use of airspace (FUA) were waiting to be plucked off the shelf.
"Unfortunately, while concepts like FUA could well be achievable in future, there will be a requirement for significant advances in associated technologies, as well as the regulations, standards and procedures needed to underpin any such concept," he said.
I think it's time to move the RAAF base to say Evens Head, and let Newcastle Airport become the regions Second Major International Airport!, If the government has to build and pay for a second airport why not make it one for the RAAF....
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I think it's time to move the RAAF base to say Evens Head, and let Newcastle Airport become the regions Second Major International Airport!, If the government has to build and pay for a second airport why not make it one for the RAAF....
Why should the taxpayers give up a RAAF base to a civilian airport operator. If more capacity is required, they can pay for a 2nd runway or another greenfield airport. The govt isn't in the airport business anymore and shouldn't be giving up strategic assets to private companies.
The taxpayer cost to establish an alternate RAAF base is unjustified.
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did you get the message Dick?
NEWCASTLE Airport is rapidly approaching the point where it will be incapable of absorbing additional commercial operations, the RAAF's incoming deputy chief has warned.
Air Commodore Geoff Brown, who is due to take over as Deputy Chief of Air Force from Air Vice-Marshal John Blackburn, warned at this week's Waypoint conference that commercial interests needed to temper the expectations for the facility.
The comments are another nail in the coffin of a briefly floated NSW proposal to develop Newcastle as a second Sydney airport.
Air Commodore Geoff Brown, who is due to take over as Deputy Chief of Air Force from Air Vice-Marshal John Blackburn, warned at this week's Waypoint conference that commercial interests needed to temper the expectations for the facility.
The comments are another nail in the coffin of a briefly floated NSW proposal to develop Newcastle as a second Sydney airport.
DK
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I don't believe for one minute the government would give away Newcastle Airport! the money made from the sale of Newcastle Airport would pay for a new facility for the RAAF.