Merged: Qantas Cadets
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Damo, if you applied for the cadetship, then you must also be a snotty rich kid.
It goes without saying that probably a large proportion of guys/gals who took the GA path applied for the Qantas cadetship or thought about it at some stage, and the ones who complain about cadets are obviously the ones who did not get in. If given the opportunity for the cadetship, I'm sure they would have most likely accepted it.
Jealousy is a wonderful thing. Going through the cadet program itself is not easy and cadets do it hard themselves. They are required to perform to a very high standard set from Qantas and go through rigorous training. The hard yards are done by all, only in a different way.
Not all cadets have rich parents. Can we also go saying that all pilots are snotty rich kids?... seeing as flight training is so expensive. Some may be, some aren't and have done the so-called "hard yards" saving up for flight training. Same goes with cadets, they have worked hard to be able to afford an opportunity of a lifetime. Not all cadets are fresh out of school. Some have left big things behind and taken enormous risks to follow their dream to fly.
We need to respect the fact that there is more than one way to get an airline job and each and every person is different, has a unique background, experience and life story. After all with the kind of attitude you have with generalisation, good luck in a multicrew environment working with different guys/gals day in and out. Are you going to judge someone else by the way they got into the airline or are you going to sit down, shutup and do the job?
The fact is every job in the world has varying career paths, whether you do your training through tafe, uni, private college or just get the plain old hands on experience.
Get over it!
It goes without saying that probably a large proportion of guys/gals who took the GA path applied for the Qantas cadetship or thought about it at some stage, and the ones who complain about cadets are obviously the ones who did not get in. If given the opportunity for the cadetship, I'm sure they would have most likely accepted it.
Jealousy is a wonderful thing. Going through the cadet program itself is not easy and cadets do it hard themselves. They are required to perform to a very high standard set from Qantas and go through rigorous training. The hard yards are done by all, only in a different way.
Not all cadets have rich parents. Can we also go saying that all pilots are snotty rich kids?... seeing as flight training is so expensive. Some may be, some aren't and have done the so-called "hard yards" saving up for flight training. Same goes with cadets, they have worked hard to be able to afford an opportunity of a lifetime. Not all cadets are fresh out of school. Some have left big things behind and taken enormous risks to follow their dream to fly.
We need to respect the fact that there is more than one way to get an airline job and each and every person is different, has a unique background, experience and life story. After all with the kind of attitude you have with generalisation, good luck in a multicrew environment working with different guys/gals day in and out. Are you going to judge someone else by the way they got into the airline or are you going to sit down, shutup and do the job?
The fact is every job in the world has varying career paths, whether you do your training through tafe, uni, private college or just get the plain old hands on experience.
Get over it!
There are rich kids with attitude in GA too. Generally though they get ironed out quickly or quit and some have had quick progression. So you can't say that all cadets are rich kids nor are all GA types hard luck stories.
However to say this:
to try and equate doing a cadesthip as the same as doing Australian GA is absolutely ridiculous and ill informed. Not saying that cadets haven't worked hard to be where they are at by any stretch of the imagination, however packing your bags and throwing fortune to the wind after spending $50k and sacrificing basically everything indefinitely with no guarantees IS NOT the same as doing a cadetship working your butt off spending say $100k and ending up with a QF seniority number.
Cadets do not have a special endorsement in fact they have the same endorsement as everybody else and have to get through the same training as everybody else. The issue here is that to get to that point (ie starting the endorsement) the GA guy has poured a helleva alot more blood sweat and tears than any cadet could even have imagined. The issue is not one of standards or of who's better is just that GA is a much tougher road to travel to end up at the same place as someone who is smart and has just worked hard and has 100k to spend. I think that is why there is this constant tension around the whole 'cadet' issue. The funny thing is it's really only particular to Australia. Finishing your training and starting in an airline is par for the course for those in Aisa and Europe!!
However to say this:
3. They too worked their asses off albeit in a completely different way to most other people that get into QF
Cadets do not have a special endorsement in fact they have the same endorsement as everybody else and have to get through the same training as everybody else. The issue here is that to get to that point (ie starting the endorsement) the GA guy has poured a helleva alot more blood sweat and tears than any cadet could even have imagined. The issue is not one of standards or of who's better is just that GA is a much tougher road to travel to end up at the same place as someone who is smart and has just worked hard and has 100k to spend. I think that is why there is this constant tension around the whole 'cadet' issue. The funny thing is it's really only particular to Australia. Finishing your training and starting in an airline is par for the course for those in Aisa and Europe!!
Nunc est bibendum
Neville, were I equating a cadetship with THY in GA then I'd agree. However, the implication by Damo that only GA pilots work their asses off is patently untrue. Hence my response that cadets too tend to work their asses off- albeit in an completely different way. Given that I stressed that cadets too work hard but in a different manner I think it's a long bow to draw (and therefore a strawman for someone to bring up) that I was implying in any way that it equated with GA THY. Work hard yes. As hard? Impossible to say unless you know the individuals. Same? No. So in essence, cadets too work hard albeit in a completely different way to GA THY! I think I said that before! 
It's also ignorant to suggest that a non-cadet has poured in more blood sweat and tears than a cadet. Unless you know the background of the pilots going through the respective streams then any comparison as to what each has gone through is flawed at best.
One of your points rings true though and has been brought up many times before. There is no quarter asked for nor given when it comes to jumping through the fiery hoops in QF. It'd be interesting to see the pass/fail rate of former cadets on the various courses in QF. I may crunch some recent numbers and see what I can find out.
It's also ignorant to suggest that a non-cadet has poured in more blood sweat and tears than a cadet. Unless you know the background of the pilots going through the respective streams then any comparison as to what each has gone through is flawed at best.
One of your points rings true though and has been brought up many times before. There is no quarter asked for nor given when it comes to jumping through the fiery hoops in QF. It'd be interesting to see the pass/fail rate of former cadets on the various courses in QF. I may crunch some recent numbers and see what I can find out.
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This is definitely a touchy issue and the feedback from QF mates as well as from personal experience is that the majority of cadets out there think that they're 'Gods gift to flying' and there 
doesnt stink (there is a minority out there that dont think like this but its definitely a minority) hence the tension. NOT "JEALOUSY" but an OVERSIZED EGO. The solution??????????scrap the cadetship, simple as that. Rumours are flying about that this just might be the case. I guess time will tell.
doesnt stink (there is a minority out there that dont think like this but its definitely a minority) hence the tension. NOT "JEALOUSY" but an OVERSIZED EGO. The solution??????????scrap the cadetship, simple as that. Rumours are flying about that this just might be the case. I guess time will tell.
Cebo,
Bull****. How many ex-cadets do you know. I know 6, both on places like PPrune and in real life. None of them have attitude problems. They all realise they were given an opportunity of a life time to do in 2-5 years what people work 5-15 years to achieve.
I am sure some cadets do have attitude problems, but I have also heard of ex-RAAF guys who think they are also god's gift to flying and by looking at the posts on this boar there are obviously GA guys who think they are better than Cadets.
There are always bad apples that give a group a bad name, but it usually follows the 80/20 rule.
80% are enthusiastic young pilots you recognise they have been giving an amazing kick start to their career and have a lot to learn and 20% who reckon they are perfect aviators.
Bull****. How many ex-cadets do you know. I know 6, both on places like PPrune and in real life. None of them have attitude problems. They all realise they were given an opportunity of a life time to do in 2-5 years what people work 5-15 years to achieve.
I am sure some cadets do have attitude problems, but I have also heard of ex-RAAF guys who think they are also god's gift to flying and by looking at the posts on this boar there are obviously GA guys who think they are better than Cadets.
There are always bad apples that give a group a bad name, but it usually follows the 80/20 rule.
80% are enthusiastic young pilots you recognise they have been giving an amazing kick start to their career and have a lot to learn and 20% who reckon they are perfect aviators.
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The ignorance of some people is staggering (still).
Ex- Cadets, GA, and RAAF pilots come from vastly different backgrounds, with vastly different experiences. To generalise is naive, and usually means you have been misinformed. I have met hundreds of pilots from all three 'categories', and the proportion of good buys vs bad guys vs good pilots vs bad pilots doesn't vary all that much. At the end of the day, the sort of person you are is largely independent of your stereotype. Of course, there are a few notable exceptions as demonstrated sometimes on PPRuNe.
One thing this industry really needs to address is the distinction between experienceS and experience. Other than a largely arbitrary hours figure, real experience has never been qualified, but I digress.
To clarify the financial position of the Cadet Programme as opposed to learning in GA: the difference in costs between the two is no more than the loan from HECS-HELP. How many seniority numbers is a LOAN for 60k worth?
All the best
Ex- Cadets, GA, and RAAF pilots come from vastly different backgrounds, with vastly different experiences. To generalise is naive, and usually means you have been misinformed. I have met hundreds of pilots from all three 'categories', and the proportion of good buys vs bad guys vs good pilots vs bad pilots doesn't vary all that much. At the end of the day, the sort of person you are is largely independent of your stereotype. Of course, there are a few notable exceptions as demonstrated sometimes on PPRuNe.
One thing this industry really needs to address is the distinction between experienceS and experience. Other than a largely arbitrary hours figure, real experience has never been qualified, but I digress.
To clarify the financial position of the Cadet Programme as opposed to learning in GA: the difference in costs between the two is no more than the loan from HECS-HELP. How many seniority numbers is a LOAN for 60k worth?
All the best
Nunc est bibendum
There is no one so deaf as those who will not hear or as blind as those who do not see. 
Give it up Lancer. We've both done this before and know that there is no light at the end of the tunnel for some. What is most interesting is that there are no threads on PPRUNE of cadets saying FIGJAM. There are plenty of threads of people having a go at cadets though. Often I think this says more about the individuals taking the pot shots than it does the cadets they supposedly speak of.
Give it up Lancer. We've both done this before and know that there is no light at the end of the tunnel for some. What is most interesting is that there are no threads on PPRUNE of cadets saying FIGJAM. There are plenty of threads of people having a go at cadets though. Often I think this says more about the individuals taking the pot shots than it does the cadets they supposedly speak of.
As hard? Impossible to say unless you know the individuals. Same? No. So in essence, cadets too work hard albeit in a completely different way to GA THY! I think I said that before
The GA guy has already taken the same risk of trying to pass everything, then gambles again by going out to try and find work and the usual story that follows.
It's also ignorant to suggest that a non-cadet has poured in more blood sweat and tears than a cadet. Unless you know the background of the pilots going through the respective streams then any comparison as to what each has gone through is flawed at best.
Nunc est bibendum
Nev, you don't think various cadets haven't dragged families around at various stages doing different things? You don't think cadets haven't worked a couple of jobs to get money to pay off/ pay back their cadetship whilst struggling to find a flying job? You don't think cadets don't have significant hurdles to overcome when they walk into an aviation employer with graduate of XYZ Aviation College in their log book?
Look, I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here. I understand that those who go through GA have a pretty tough time and work very hard to get into QF. Having had friends and colleagues do it I know that it's a lot of hard work. That doesn't mean that a cadetship isn't hard work- it certainly is. The other thing you forget is that along the way to a QF career, the GA driver doesn't have to get everything 100% right all the time, they just have to be 100% right when they apply. Compare that to a cadetship when the scrutiny and requirement to perform at a very high standard exists from the time you start selection until the time you start day 1 at your airline. At ANY time along the way you can be binned for saying/doing the wrong thing.....as some people were along the way. Only when the cadet and the other pilot start work at the airline are they then facing the same circumstances.
So even the 'risk' avenue doesn't work that well. Forking out more money for a cadetship than is required to do it 'normally' (according to the reports on here) for a greater level of scrutiny along the way, no guarantee of a gig if QF don't like what they see and so on would again indicate that the risk is different for each avenue. I know which I'd choose though and the reality is that the overwhelming majority of crew would choose the same way I did.
The reality is that cadets have to work hard to jump through the hurdles to get into QF. Whether that is harder or easier than someone going GA THY is really a discussion about individual journeys rather than any generic statement that one is easier than the other. I wouldn't change my time and I know that for me, my journey was relatively smooth- certainly smoother than the bloke 300 numbers junior to me who also applied for the cadetship at the same time as I did and with the same number of hours but who missed out- but don't for a second take that as meaning that I didn't have to work hard (and perhaps harder at some things) at getting into QF.
Look, I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here. I understand that those who go through GA have a pretty tough time and work very hard to get into QF. Having had friends and colleagues do it I know that it's a lot of hard work. That doesn't mean that a cadetship isn't hard work- it certainly is. The other thing you forget is that along the way to a QF career, the GA driver doesn't have to get everything 100% right all the time, they just have to be 100% right when they apply. Compare that to a cadetship when the scrutiny and requirement to perform at a very high standard exists from the time you start selection until the time you start day 1 at your airline. At ANY time along the way you can be binned for saying/doing the wrong thing.....as some people were along the way. Only when the cadet and the other pilot start work at the airline are they then facing the same circumstances.
So even the 'risk' avenue doesn't work that well. Forking out more money for a cadetship than is required to do it 'normally' (according to the reports on here) for a greater level of scrutiny along the way, no guarantee of a gig if QF don't like what they see and so on would again indicate that the risk is different for each avenue. I know which I'd choose though and the reality is that the overwhelming majority of crew would choose the same way I did.
The reality is that cadets have to work hard to jump through the hurdles to get into QF. Whether that is harder or easier than someone going GA THY is really a discussion about individual journeys rather than any generic statement that one is easier than the other. I wouldn't change my time and I know that for me, my journey was relatively smooth- certainly smoother than the bloke 300 numbers junior to me who also applied for the cadetship at the same time as I did and with the same number of hours but who missed out- but don't for a second take that as meaning that I didn't have to work hard (and perhaps harder at some things) at getting into QF.
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Mcgrath,
Ex-cadets????????none. Cadets...........plenty (not to be boostful but more than your infinitesimal number). Obviously you didnt thoroughly read my post carefully. A majority of cadets have attitudes as big as ben hur, just ask the crew members including FAs that have to fly with them. However in defense of those well grounded cadets out there
. But in my experience as well as other colleagues this is just a minority. "Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference" Churchill. The cadetship creates a culture of unmerited privilege in the current system and certainly disadvantages some DE pilots regarding senority numbers. Example a cadet can start gets IP flying a turboprop for 2 years and is more senior than a DE SO who starts a day after that cadet. If the vast populace doesnt agree that thats unfair there obtuse. To rid the system of tension between DE and cadets either scrap the cadetship or DE or change the current system to make it more fair............simple. Oh but what about experience?? you may well ask yourself, well its quite obvious according to many posts on here that thats not needed, bull, why the need for industry placement????
Ex-cadets????????none. Cadets...........plenty (not to be boostful but more than your infinitesimal number). Obviously you didnt thoroughly read my post carefully. A majority of cadets have attitudes as big as ben hur, just ask the crew members including FAs that have to fly with them. However in defense of those well grounded cadets out there
. But in my experience as well as other colleagues this is just a minority. "Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference" Churchill. The cadetship creates a culture of unmerited privilege in the current system and certainly disadvantages some DE pilots regarding senority numbers. Example a cadet can start gets IP flying a turboprop for 2 years and is more senior than a DE SO who starts a day after that cadet. If the vast populace doesnt agree that thats unfair there obtuse. To rid the system of tension between DE and cadets either scrap the cadetship or DE or change the current system to make it more fair............simple. Oh but what about experience?? you may well ask yourself, well its quite obvious according to many posts on here that thats not needed, bull, why the need for industry placement????
Nunc est bibendum
I'd bet my house that I know more people who have graduated the QF cadetship than you cebo and your comments regarding cadets with attitude are simply wrong. The number of cadets with attitude in QF is generally the same ratio as non cadets with attitude. Actually, now that I go back over my time in QF I reckon I've copped more 'tude from non cadets than cadets. Geez, perhaps I'd better start slagging GA drivers and military drivers. Actually though, now that I think about it, perhaps I'm just better off acknowledging that there are individuals who get into QF with the wrong attitude and their backgrounds are essentially irrelevant.
Also telling that cebo takes on the 'youngling' in mcgrath but leaves my comments uncontested. Another example of the intestinal fortitude of some cadet bashers I guess. (Note too how I don't tar all cadet bashers with the same brush). It's funny but I don't tend to hear much cadet bashing on the line. I wonder why that is? Is it that the attitude displayed by some of the bashers precludes them getting into QF in the first place? Is it that for those who get in the reality of flying with so many former cadets and realising that they're no different to other crew means they have nothing more to whinge about? Is it the lack of intestinal fortitude in expressing the opinion face to face on the line rather than anonymously via PPRUNE?
CIPP is another discussion all together. The reality is that QF have in the past- and again recently- taken cadets direct into QF.
Also telling that cebo takes on the 'youngling' in mcgrath but leaves my comments uncontested. Another example of the intestinal fortitude of some cadet bashers I guess. (Note too how I don't tar all cadet bashers with the same brush).
It's funny but I don't tend to hear much cadet bashing on the line. I wonder why that is? Is it that the attitude displayed by some of the bashers precludes them getting into QF in the first place? Is it that for those who get in the reality of flying with so many former cadets and realising that they're no different to other crew means they have nothing more to whinge about? Is it the lack of intestinal fortitude in expressing the opinion face to face on the line rather than anonymously via PPRUNE?CIPP is another discussion all together. The reality is that QF have in the past- and again recently- taken cadets direct into QF.
Why is there a Cadet program? It would make sense if it was to help people who don't have the funds to fund thier own training but its not. If there was a massive shortage I could also understand. But the last company to get effected by that (if there was one) would be Qantas. There are plenty of people with the required experience out there who would love to get in after spending a few years in sh*tbox aircraft. I'm just wondering why you would bother to have it when its not needed. and no I'm not bitter at Cadets. I have the requirements to apply DE but havn't yet.
Last edited by Fonz121; 20th Dec 2008 at 22:29. Reason: grammar
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Fonz, good point! Why have the cadetship? The airlines with cadetships through Asia, Europe, and the Middle East have cadetships as a vital company programme to recruit their pilots. Why? These regions have no GA or similar as a pool to select flight crew. Australia does.
I stand to be corrected, but the QF cadetship was introduced in the 60's to deal with the growth of the airline and it's need to attract people to a flying career, but also, so 'Capt Daddy' could relive his career through his kid (the later seemed to hang-around until the late 90's until a certain someone left - lets however save that discussion for another time!).
I think it's important to have the two avenues of entry into QF. The cadetship costs QF next to nothing: the applicant pays for both the selection process and training costs of an-over priced programme where QF sets the standards while having absolutely no obligation to employ the cadets after graduation, but having plenty of qualified pilots in the wings when they need them. What a win for the company!
The current CP is a non-cadet, the first in a while, so it will be interesting to what future intake numbers consist of!
I stand to be corrected, but the QF cadetship was introduced in the 60's to deal with the growth of the airline and it's need to attract people to a flying career, but also, so 'Capt Daddy' could relive his career through his kid (the later seemed to hang-around until the late 90's until a certain someone left - lets however save that discussion for another time!).
I think it's important to have the two avenues of entry into QF. The cadetship costs QF next to nothing: the applicant pays for both the selection process and training costs of an-over priced programme where QF sets the standards while having absolutely no obligation to employ the cadets after graduation, but having plenty of qualified pilots in the wings when they need them. What a win for the company!
The current CP is a non-cadet, the first in a while, so it will be interesting to what future intake numbers consist of!
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Keg
Some of your comments posted previously ie cadets have to work hard to jump over the same hurdles, some cadets are paying off loans incurred to get through the program, I totally agree with. I believe cadets sometimes have to work harder than your DE pilots, I take my hat off to those cadets who have got through the QF processes, seeing that it would be a very steep learning curve. However to insinuate that every constructive comment made about the cadetship program and cadets in general is "bashing" then obviously you and others are blinded by your own glory or just bias. I made some relevant points: scrap the cadetship, scrap DE, or change the process of recruitment and you totally skirted around the issue. It's quite obvious that cadets dont take criticism well as you go a on personal barrage against "cadet bashers". I talk from personal experience in regard to cadets and agree that some DE pilots have attitude too. But once again you havent read my post carefully, I stated that a majority of cadets I have met do have egos, fact. Why dont you hear this on line? I have plenty of times. To say that at times tension doesnt exist between DE and cadets is a classic case of shortsightedness. To also say that if you ever said anything against the cadetship would preclude you from QF is ridiculous- You better not touch the Chosen One or else. As well as in discussion forums like pprune age stratification shouldnt exist, because McG is young doesnt make him immune to criticism.
Some of your comments posted previously ie cadets have to work hard to jump over the same hurdles, some cadets are paying off loans incurred to get through the program, I totally agree with. I believe cadets sometimes have to work harder than your DE pilots, I take my hat off to those cadets who have got through the QF processes, seeing that it would be a very steep learning curve. However to insinuate that every constructive comment made about the cadetship program and cadets in general is "bashing" then obviously you and others are blinded by your own glory or just bias. I made some relevant points: scrap the cadetship, scrap DE, or change the process of recruitment and you totally skirted around the issue. It's quite obvious that cadets dont take criticism well as you go a on personal barrage against "cadet bashers". I talk from personal experience in regard to cadets and agree that some DE pilots have attitude too. But once again you havent read my post carefully, I stated that a majority of cadets I have met do have egos, fact. Why dont you hear this on line? I have plenty of times. To say that at times tension doesnt exist between DE and cadets is a classic case of shortsightedness. To also say that if you ever said anything against the cadetship would preclude you from QF is ridiculous- You better not touch the Chosen One or else. As well as in discussion forums like pprune age stratification shouldnt exist, because McG is young doesnt make him immune to criticism.
Nunc est bibendum
Let's try and make sure that we stay on track here cebo. I don't like being mis-quoted.
Not necessarily same hurdles. Certainly hurdles. They invariably differ from the GA route. They may be the same in some circumstances but probably not often. Unfortunately the sweeping statements made by various contributors that cadets don't work hard is simply false. Lack of serious comment about the different difficulties in the cadet program- that your average GA THY crew member doesn't deal with- lacks part of the story.
With respect I've never done that. I'm more than happy to have the discussion about the relative merits of the cadet program- do a search for previous comments by me on this forum. The whole reason I lobbed into this discussion in the last couple of days hasn't been due to adverse comments about the program but adverse comments about the individuals doing the program. Having been shown the statements about the individuals to be based in ignorance, only now do we see the topic suddenly shift to the merits of the cadetship themselves. I see a big distinction between those who sledge the program and those who sledge the individuals who avail themselves of it.
It's your straw man, you can tear it up as much as you like.
Most PILOTS on the line have egos. FACT.
Perhaps it's because as an ex cadet they're not prepared to say it to my face. Perhaps it's because it just isn't an issue to the overwhelming majority of crew. Perhaps the 'tension' arises less from the actions of the cadets and more from the ego and/or chip on the shoulder of the non cadet. It's certainly easy though to blame both the cadet and the scheme itself for the tension created. The reality is that I've very rarely come across this. I didn't as a S/O on the 744, I recall it just once as a F/O on the 767 and it was because the former regional driver felt he should have been senior to me, I didn't come across it on the 744- although I certainly came across general attitude from S/Os but that was generally a function of more than eight years in that seat rather than anything else. I haven't come across it since comping back to the 767.
On a separate note though, I must admit that it has been on occasion good 'sport' when someone starts banging on about cadets this or cadets that, to get them to wind up about the issue and then see the faces when they inevitably ask about my background a day or three later. However, I tend to just judge people on their current attitude and demonstrated performance. So far I've found the ratio of bad 'tude to be similar across cadets, non cadets and ex military.'
Not sure I follow you here? More information please. I don't think I've ever pushed that line?!?!
Of course not. He's young and will occasionally make mistakes and given that I spend a fair bit of my spare time in a youth development organisation I'm pretty confident in my understanding of the feedback process. I'm older and will occasionally make mistakes too but hopefully 13 years of QF means that I'll make a few less when it comes to talking about the relative merits of the crew I fly with. I just found it interesting that you originally took specific aim at his comments but left my comments alone.
So, now that it appears that we've agreed that there are prats in the ranks no matter what their background, let's move onto the merits of the cadet schemes themselves.
Personally I was a bit mystified to see QF ramp up the cadet scheme to the extent they did last year. I couldn't see the need for the number of positions they were creating. I think that cadetships are a good thing for targeting at a young age the type of people you want- the same way the RAAF does- but I couldn't see the purpose in having 150-200 slots per annum. Even 100 per annum was probably too much. Having a system that you can 'ramp up' when you've bled GA dry though is probably not a bad thing and having the pipeline going means that you retain some form of corporate knowledge of the way to run such systems.
So why does QF have them? In the late '80s they were short of pilots that met their standards. Cadetships were the answer until the pilots dispute and Gulf War I solved the pilot shortage for a few years. The ones in the late '90s were simply the conclusion of that contract but by now QF had worked out that people would pay. They kept the tap running in order to be able to 'ramp up' and because they (obviously) liked the product. Pylet's third paragraph probably sums it up nicely in terms of whats in it for QF now. The other reality is that not every GA driver will meet QFs standards the same as not every person that starts a CPL will be able to complete it.
So there you go. Addressed your comments about the 'why the cadetship' and hopefully have ensured that you are clear on my point of view.
Some of your comments posted previously ie cadets have to work hard to jump over the same hurdles,
However to insinuate that every constructive comment made about the cadetship program and cadets in general is "bashing" ....
....then obviously you and others are blinded by your own glory or just bias. I made some relevant points: scrap the cadetship, scrap DE, or change the process of recruitment and you totally skirted around the issue.
I stated that a majority of cadets I have met do have egos, fact.
Why dont you hear this on line? I have plenty of times. To say that at times tension doesnt exist between DE and cadets is a classic case of shortsightedness.
On a separate note though, I must admit that it has been on occasion good 'sport' when someone starts banging on about cadets this or cadets that, to get them to wind up about the issue and then see the faces when they inevitably ask about my background a day or three later. However, I tend to just judge people on their current attitude and demonstrated performance. So far I've found the ratio of bad 'tude to be similar across cadets, non cadets and ex military.'
To also say that if you ever said anything against the cadetship would preclude you from QF is ridiculous...
... because McG is young doesnt make him immune to criticism.
So, now that it appears that we've agreed that there are prats in the ranks no matter what their background, let's move onto the merits of the cadet schemes themselves.
Personally I was a bit mystified to see QF ramp up the cadet scheme to the extent they did last year. I couldn't see the need for the number of positions they were creating. I think that cadetships are a good thing for targeting at a young age the type of people you want- the same way the RAAF does- but I couldn't see the purpose in having 150-200 slots per annum. Even 100 per annum was probably too much. Having a system that you can 'ramp up' when you've bled GA dry though is probably not a bad thing and having the pipeline going means that you retain some form of corporate knowledge of the way to run such systems.
So why does QF have them? In the late '80s they were short of pilots that met their standards. Cadetships were the answer until the pilots dispute and Gulf War I solved the pilot shortage for a few years. The ones in the late '90s were simply the conclusion of that contract but by now QF had worked out that people would pay. They kept the tap running in order to be able to 'ramp up' and because they (obviously) liked the product. Pylet's third paragraph probably sums it up nicely in terms of whats in it for QF now. The other reality is that not every GA driver will meet QFs standards the same as not every person that starts a CPL will be able to complete it.
So there you go. Addressed your comments about the 'why the cadetship' and hopefully have ensured that you are clear on my point of view.
Cebo, I don't doubt that you know x number of cadets and some have attitude, but to say that level-headed cadets without ego issues are in the minority is complete rubbish! From personal experience, we walk a very fine line between coming accross as egotistical and arrogant or a nice level-headed fellow. When another pilot asks what your background is, the simple fact of telling him/her you are a cadet on CIPP is enough to be tagged with the arrogant 'up yourself' brush who can't wait to get into mainline I came across guys who had never met me before but knew I was a cadet so every time we came accross each other they would look the other way just to avoid a greeting! It wasn't until 12 months later when one was forced to catch a jump seat ride that they realised I may not have been the pric* they assumed me to be.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that a cadet and GA guy can say the exact same thing, behave the exact same way and yet each will be "labelled" differently depending on the attitude of the observer. I may be bias, but I know many cadets and I can say that maybe 1 or 2 have larger egos than they probably should but the rest are just happy to be flying and will enjoy a nice cold beer at the pub and hold a conversation that doesn't always revolve around QF and aviation at all.
I came across guys who had never met me before but knew I was a cadet so every time we came accross each other they would look the other way just to avoid a greeting! It wasn't until 12 months later when one was forced to catch a jump seat ride that they realised I may not have been the pric* they assumed me to be.I guess what i'm trying to say is that a cadet and GA guy can say the exact same thing, behave the exact same way and yet each will be "labelled" differently depending on the attitude of the observer. I may be bias, but I know many cadets and I can say that maybe 1 or 2 have larger egos than they probably should but the rest are just happy to be flying and will enjoy a nice cold beer at the pub and hold a conversation that doesn't always revolve around QF and aviation at all.
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nice cold beer at the pub and hold a conversation that doesn't always revolve around QF and aviation at all.
Does talking about the flight attendants count as aviation?
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Out of interest, has anyone been selected for the Swinburne/Griffith Cadetship? I would like to hear from actual 2009 Cadets, or have people not been notified if they're successful or not?