Merged: Qantas Cadets

[atminimums]

It seems now that there is very little point in continuing with the cadetship program. By training privately (and taking the conventional route), I could:

a) Massively reduce costs
b) Reduce the time needed
c) Still have approximately the same chance as getting into Q via the direct entry option.

hmmm...Talk about a spanner in the works.

[biggles7374]

Is this information from the same email that atminimums got?

No change to Cadet information on the website yet!!!

[atminimums]

Biggles..

Yeh, that is exactly the same as the email I received.

mins

[Keg]

c) Still have approximately the same chance as getting into Q via the direct entry option.

Yes but how many cadets are they going to take before they take a direct entry person. In 94/95 they took about 90 cadets who had finished their cadetships for between 2 1/3 and 3 years before they took someone off the street. Those they took off the street after that were not the 'bare minimum' type of crew. I suspect if you 'go it alone' then you're looking at putting yourself at least 100 numbers and possibly as much as 300 numbers further down the seniority pile. It may not seem much right now but it can mean significant things when you get in.

My personal feeling is that if you've got an offer then not taking it is going to have far more significant long term ramifications than the extra $30K at the start of your career. In fact, if the cadetship gets you into QF a year earlier than direct entry then it's paid for itself already. That doesn't even take into account that you'll always be at least a year better off in pay when promotion comes around.

By all means you have to make the final 'd' yourself and be happy with it but I just thought I'd throw a bit extra into the mix.

[biggles7374]

Hi atminimums and others

I cannot even begin to think how you are feeling at the moment. After participating (and paying for) the selection process to be faced with scenario like this where the goalposts are moved.

Unfortunately these are the kinds of hard situations Captains are faced with every day and careful evaluation of the options now open to you will be necessary to identify achieving the best possible outcome for yourself. Take control and manage the immediate situation in the knowledge that your end goal of a successful career in aviation has not changed, it is just the route to get there may need a small diversion.

I would encourage you to look beyond the immediate 'problem' and map out the different options open to you at this stage and be realistic rather than optomistic. Then consider the resources you have (ie money) and how you will be able to fund yourself over time and identify which options are feasible

Look at it another way, perhaps they are looking for people that can see still see the opportunity despite all the apparent negativity. Faced with an impossible decision do you stay and fight or do you give up?
Seems to me this will put a many potential cadets off applying, but the flip side is that there will be less 'pressure' on the QF business to find high number of CIPP placements resulting from a lesser number of QF Cadets around in future years.

I wish you Good Luck - this is a life changing decision you are making.

Biggles

[capt-plough]

I too have received this email and it places me in a really hard position!

I am an applicant for the commercial program and have my flight test booked in for mid January. I have spent around 2-3 thousand dollars going through the process so far (including flying to and from Sydney, accomodation in Sydney, testing fees, medical fees, criminal history fees, and then most costly was refresher training to get me back to a good CPL standard) and then a few of weeks before my flight test I receive an email telling me the course has been withdrawn .

Now I'm faced with the decision of whether or not to sit a flight test at all (an extra approx $1500).

If I am successful I won't even find out until 31st of June and even then there is uncertainty on when the course will eventually start.

So what do you do in the mean time... it's too risky to do an instrument rating or instructors rating, as I'd be spending around $15K and then if I did end up being accepted into the cadets I'd have to do the instrument rating again as part of the training!

It could be a good oppurtunity to get a full time job an save some coin for the costs associated with the course, but even then if the course ends up being cancelled or if I find out on the 31st of June that I'm unsuccessful, I've wasted a year of not gaining experience and hours!

I'm still really keen to be a cadet, but they're not making life easy at all!

[biggles7374]

Hi Capt Plough

I really symapthise with all you guys in a similar position.

Ring QF and explain that in the light of this new information would it be possible to defer your flight test until nearer may / June next year. Do not feel forced to close doors yourself as there are plenty of people willing to do that for you. Keep the cadet option open, that way you could see how things pan out in the meantime before spending more money on a flight test. I would hope they would be sympathetic to that request. Until you ask you don't know!!!

Good Luck

[hotnhigh]

A different scenario to the 90's keg.
Because it's a user pay system from the start of the cadetship, there will be absolutely no incentive to take the cadets over direct entry when recruitment re commences. The whole process of the cadet scheme doesn't cost qantas, it costs the applicant.
The nasty similarities between the 90's and now are emerging.
Recruitment may be on extended leave for awhile, ie a few years. In that time, those that use the situation to gain other flying experience, in my view, will be in a far better position than those that do not. And this experience will be looked upon favourably when the merry go round starts again.

[B747ERNG]

Hi capt-plough,

Are you doing the flight test for the Autumn or Winter program?

Will the Autumn commercial program go ahead?

thanks

[capt-plough]

Hi B747ERNG,

I'm applying for the Autumn course, both Autumn and Winter courses have been withdrawn and as far as I know ALL 2009 cadet programs have been withdrawn, while the Spring 2009 course is under review until the 31st of June as to whether or not it will be still running.

So I'm not sure if this means that they are still testing the Winter applicants or not... or if they are combining the applicants for Autumn, Winter and Spring and taking the most competitive of the three and placing them on the Spring program (if it goes ahead).

Cheers,

[B747ERNG]

Thanks capt-plough,

I also attended the tests for commercial program but haven't been informed about the withdrawn of Autumn and Winter course yet. That's really a shock for me and many others I believe.

Could anyone else who has been informed by QF about the withdraw of the 2009 Autumn or Winter "commercial" program share some info with us?

many thanks!

[KTM525]

I can imagine recieving this news could be heartbreaking for you guys/girls out there that had your hopes on receiving a cadetship with Qantas. It sucks!

But hey, its not worth giving up your dream just because you have to spend a few years in GA, you might just enjoy it! Most guys in the airlines have fond memories and lifelong friends from GA.....and some bloody good flying and life experience you will never get from a cadetship if you didn't have to do some "industry experience".

Your dream might be driving a boeing around the sky, but its often the experiences you get along the way when you least expect it that makes the journey worthwhile.

If you wanted an easy run into the airlines, i guess that chance is over until this downturn finishes (hopefully soon!). If you wanted to join an airline because of you wanted the lifestyle and cash (and like wearing serrengettis!) you may need to try a different industry for a while, if you wanted to join an airline beacuse you love to fly.....go bush and have a ball...you will be flying in an airline before you know it.

[j3pipercub]

Keg,

are you suggesting that the cadetship is only 30k more expensive than non cadetship flying training? I would beg to differ...

j3

[Keg]

J3, you're probably right. Maybe it's $50K more expensive. I suspect my point would still hold true.

[damo1089]

MY thoughts on QF cadets:
I applied for QF cadets, and failed, and now that I think about it, I'm glad I did. Now, next year, I am attending the same training school as Qantas cadets, but I am paying 60k less, and the only difference is that my foot is not in the proverbial door. QF preach that they will have big pilot shortages, yet they make their cadets pay a rediculous amount to even get noticed, and never say anything about a guaranteed job. They could have said no to me at any time and I would have lost my sixty thousand dollar gamble. If they were serious about a pilot shortage, they would take a leaf of of Etihad's book and fund it themselves, Or cap the price at the FEE-HELP maximum.

When I think about it even more, would I want to be a second officer on a 747/A380/A330/767 with only 200 hours experience? Surrounded by people who worked their asses and years off to get to exactly the same position? Who werent rich kids, paying for a job? Would they want me in control of the aircraft when/if an emergency goes down? Don't think so.

[pylet]

Damo1089, feel good to get that one off your chest mate?
I always find it amusing that QF cadets have a "rich kid" stigma attached to them from others (namely those who missed out on the cadetship themselves at some stage). I'm not a cadet, but know many, and having gone through GA to reach the same position as cadets in roughly the same time-frame, I can say that the majority of cadets I know have worked as hard as anyone else! Many have worked hard for to save enough to ensure a loan for their flying costs, others have worked several careers before joining, extended a mortgage etc. A large portion of cadets did not join straight from high school on daddy's coin!
Also, aviation is a dynamic industry - from pilot shortage and employment enmass, to a freeze on recruitment within months! QF doesn't guarantee employment for this very reason. Etihad is a growing company with very few capital concerns compared to most major carriers (we don't all have millions of crude under our backyard sand-pit!). But I can assure you that if Etihad does need to stunt planned growth due to the effects of the global financial environment (or any other reason), those cadet employment guarantees will be worth sh&t!
And yes even the QF SO's are trained in emergency's (as in any endorsement recognised by CASA). Of the recent QF incidents, SO's were in the hot seat! A job well done by all accounts.....

[j3pipercub]

Keg,

You're probably right. However, when just starting out, I would never have been able to afford the cadetship, not without an extra 2-3 years of office work. I do understand that with FEE-Help this changes things. However 5 years ago I was excluded from that boat financially, and I am sure there are others that are/were in the same boat.

j3

[Keg]

What an informed assessment by damo. Absolutely spot on. What wisdom from someone so young.

When I think about it even more, would I want to be a second officer on a 747/A380/A330/767 with only 200 hours experience? Surrounded by people who worked their asses and years off to get to exactly the same position? Who werent rich kids, paying for a job? Would they want me in control of the aircraft when/if an emergency goes down? Don't think so

You're in for a rude shock when you discover:

1. That the Captain is an ex-cadet.
2. They weren't rich kids and nor did they come from rich families. They did in fact work hard to get the money for their cadetship.
3. They too worked their asses off albeit in a completely different way to most other people that get into QF
4. They judge people on the basis of their attitude and competency rather than their background.
5. They find your demonstrated attitude to be ignorant and abhorrent.

There are numerous examples of where ex cadets have performed exactly as QF expects a crew member should. I don't want to give the media anything so perhaps we'll save that conversation until you've gotten you've finished your CPL training, gained some experience, jumped through the hoops to get into QF, and finished your line training. Then you can feel free to regale us ex cadets with your accumulated wisdom from having not been one.

I guess it highlights yet again that the 'prats' aren't restricted to ex cadets.

[capt-plough]

The word is (second hand info) that Autumn and Winter applicants, if successful in passing all stages of assessment, will remain on hold (or active consideration) until a full review of the ccccadet program is completed (which is estimated to be around the end of June).

If at this time, if they believe there is a need for another course, the applicants from both Autumn and Winter courses will be competing for a spot on the Spring program (effectively doubling the amount of competition) which starts in October.

So it's pretty much a waiting game now to see what happens!

It's a tough call for what to do in the mean time, as I said before if you go off and do an instrument rating and then later find out that your successfully accepted into the course, you've effectively wasted around $15K.

I'm personally not gonna sit around at home and wait while I can be off gaining hours and experience.. I'm hoping to head off north an get some hours in VFR charter or scenic and then wait an see what happens with the course. By this stage I may even decide if whether or not the cadets is the best option after already gaining some experience in GA.

But with the employment freeze happening at the regionals and majors at the moment (which I imagine would filter through to less movement in GA) I have to wonder what my chances are of gaining employment up north will be, with only a fresh CPL to my name!

Can anyone up north at the moment give any insight to what things are like up there at the moment.. if I were to head up with only a fresh CPL and knock on doors, is there much chance of getting anywhere? A PM would be great, and thanks in advance for any info or advice!

Cheers

[tsalta]

Hey damo,

I'm a rich kid but I didn't go through the cadet-ship. Am I still a snot nosed SO jerk?

I'd rather be a snot nosed SO non cadet rich kid jerk than just a regular jerk.

tsalta