MID-AIR Collision experience (almost).
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MID-AIR Collision experience (almost).
We’ve probably all had potential Mid-Air collisions and I would be interested to see other contributions;
Here are the instances where I’ve had close calls, which I broadly define as same altitude, opposite direction and only spotted when too late for evasive action.
OUTER HARBOUR SA in CTA - Opposite direction Cessna 210 same level 200 ft no time to avoid.
LATROBE VALLEY VIC in circuit – on mid downwind a Chipmunk crossed right to left at circuit height doing a roll, then spiraled down to land ahead of me.
35M WEST of MELBOURNE in CTA – Opposite direction about 200’ to the right Crop-Duster (big yellow thingy) same level, but get this – it was at 10,000 ft. I thought these guys would get a nosebleed over 500’.
GRIIFITH on Final at about 50’ – Another big yellow thing took off opposite direction and peeled off to the right at about 150’ AGL.
Apart from the first mentioned which was a breakdown in ATC or someone just barged through. The other incidents were a mix of ignorance and bravado. They may get away with it 99.999% of the time, but they take enormous risks doing so.
Here are the instances where I’ve had close calls, which I broadly define as same altitude, opposite direction and only spotted when too late for evasive action.
OUTER HARBOUR SA in CTA - Opposite direction Cessna 210 same level 200 ft no time to avoid.
LATROBE VALLEY VIC in circuit – on mid downwind a Chipmunk crossed right to left at circuit height doing a roll, then spiraled down to land ahead of me.
35M WEST of MELBOURNE in CTA – Opposite direction about 200’ to the right Crop-Duster (big yellow thingy) same level, but get this – it was at 10,000 ft. I thought these guys would get a nosebleed over 500’.
GRIIFITH on Final at about 50’ – Another big yellow thing took off opposite direction and peeled off to the right at about 150’ AGL.
Apart from the first mentioned which was a breakdown in ATC or someone just barged through. The other incidents were a mix of ignorance and bravado. They may get away with it 99.999% of the time, but they take enormous risks doing so.
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Mate you seem to attract a lot of trouble
Its an interesting topic, one I had was early solo, training area, and a small Skyfox tail dragger went straight past me on an opposite track at the same level within 100-200 feet, and even in two slow machines, they sure appear fast, obviously two small machines are harder to see.
Second and more serious, 4 miles or so from the strip, descending orbits, nobody around at all, and IFR C421C came blasting thru the CTAF with no radio call, having just left class C and in contact with either ATC, and I had just passed thru his level and orbited 100 feet below max, and 300 feet abeam as he went past. He did not see me at all. I saw them, I could read the rego and the company insignia on the tail.
Funny part was.......the pilot is now a good mate, the owner and pax is one of my biggest customers, and they were quite surprised when I phoed them up 15 min later when on the ground.
Sad part is, while they did not call as they should have, they were in radio contact with ATC and my transponder was working, I checked immediately with BNE RAD, I would have thought that ATC would have passed traffic info to them as there track was right through my orbits and I had done about 3 while descending 1500 feet before hand.
Learnt a lot as a result and as an ex AN captain and an aerobatic guy and former instructor, I have had much useful flying experience with my potential killer since!
J
Its an interesting topic, one I had was early solo, training area, and a small Skyfox tail dragger went straight past me on an opposite track at the same level within 100-200 feet, and even in two slow machines, they sure appear fast, obviously two small machines are harder to see.
Second and more serious, 4 miles or so from the strip, descending orbits, nobody around at all, and IFR C421C came blasting thru the CTAF with no radio call, having just left class C and in contact with either ATC, and I had just passed thru his level and orbited 100 feet below max, and 300 feet abeam as he went past. He did not see me at all. I saw them, I could read the rego and the company insignia on the tail
.Funny part was.......the pilot is now a good mate, the owner and pax is one of my biggest customers, and they were quite surprised when I phoed them up 15 min later when on the ground.
Sad part is, while they did not call as they should have, they were in radio contact with ATC and my transponder was working, I checked immediately with BNE RAD, I would have thought that ATC would have passed traffic info to them as there track was right through my orbits and I had done about 3 while descending 1500 feet before hand.
Learnt a lot as a result and as an ex AN captain and an aerobatic guy and former instructor, I have had much useful flying experience with my potential killer since!
J
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"Ovation" good to see yr posts with ref to 'near misses' I'm currently doing battle elsewhere in here with some that take humrance over such issues esspecially in the cowboy section of aviation, AG flying! I've not seen an AG plane as high as you mentioned, obviously in transit, just as well they seem not to venture too far away from base mostly for routine work.
Go to almost any country airstrip where AG planes operate & enjoy (not) the low level non std flying they do...............R/C planes tend to fly higher & they have a 300 ft alt restriction in places!
ATC don't always get it right anyway, none of do really, but most try, not deliberately abuse the rules there for all.
I've seen it all (well feels like it) when it comes to rule breakers out there & that doesn't mean they are all AG drivers, some am sure are very professional in their chosen field. I was at WBL some time ago now when I was surprised to notice my wingspan had grown somewhat in the shape of an AG plane !!!
Anyway nice to know i'm not an orphan here with such close calls.
See & be seen..............sounds plausable enough............but one must at least look inside the cockpit at times if not just to make sure one pushes the correct button to alert the team 'back' there that coffee is req up here !
............that's a joke to those that have their guard up !:-)
Stay alert Ovation..............fast name that!
Capt Wally:-)
Go to almost any country airstrip where AG planes operate & enjoy (not) the low level non std flying they do...............R/C planes tend to fly higher & they have a 300 ft alt restriction in places!
ATC don't always get it right anyway, none of do really, but most try, not deliberately abuse the rules there for all.
I've seen it all (well feels like it) when it comes to rule breakers out there & that doesn't mean they are all AG drivers, some am sure are very professional in their chosen field. I was at WBL some time ago now when I was surprised to notice my wingspan had grown somewhat in the shape of an AG plane !!!
Anyway nice to know i'm not an orphan here with such close calls.
See & be seen..............sounds plausable enough............but one must at least look inside the cockpit at times if not just to make sure one pushes the correct button to alert the team 'back' there that coffee is req up here !
............that's a joke to those that have their guard up !:-)Stay alert Ovation..............fast name that!
Capt Wally:-)
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................owen, gotta love that statement !.
....................dick smith, hmmmmmmmmm, saw the guy once at the BDV races many moons ago dressed in a kaki safari suit, standing alone I might add.........did he stick out??..............YES, more than any 'big sky' !
Capt Wally
.....................dick smith, hmmmmmmmmm, saw the guy once at the BDV races many moons ago dressed in a kaki safari suit, standing alone I might add.........did he stick out??..............YES, more than any 'big sky' !
Capt Wally
I class a near miss as needing to take rapid and profound (been searching my head for a better word!) action to avoid a likely collision with an aircraft that you have suddenly and unexpectedly become away of, or something that has gone past you so fast that all you can do is exclaim "what the f*ck was that"!
Having spent 10 years operating off a strip with training, gliders and ag planes, maybe I have just learnt to "expect the unexpected" and work around it.
Dr
Having spent 10 years operating off a strip with training, gliders and ag planes, maybe I have just learnt to "expect the unexpected" and work around it.
Dr
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1/ Many times returning from CTA to Parafield via Outer Harbour. Glad about the traffic info from Approach but slightly less comforting when they say 'radar services terminate' immediately after. Oh well
.
2/ Got over-taken on the left by a Twinstar this week just gone near St. Kilda - not overly happy about that. Still don't know if they had seen me.
3/ The most reckless I've seen was when I was doing practice assy. cts. at rural SA aerodrome. I was the only one in the circuit and nominated RWY 26. Circuit number 3 and glider tug stated taxiing for 08 (funnily enough the 08 threshold is closest to where the tug was started from).
Sure enough 15 seconds later "XXX rolling rwy 08". I immediately asked instructor for the use of both engines. He obliged. And we went around. Even changed to 08 to suit the tug pilot. We were then lucky enough to see same tug join the circuit on crosswind at 500 ft AGL after we had made our rolling call.
It was an interesting exercise. Assy. seemed so easy after putting up with that.
4/ Gave my position ahead of a Tobago on one of my first solo navs. Said Tobago could not see me but made no attempt to arrange seperation based on my information. Subsequently we were flying formation on downwind with me on the inside of his turn should he have decided to turn base. At our closest I think we were 20m and level altitude and as I said, I could see him but he could not see me and I was in his turn direction.
I asked for an orbit and tower told him to climb to 1500' and start again. Good decision. Apparently the Tobago's instructor could see me and was "tryin to get the student to look out the window". Sure woulda been nice to know that earlier.
Good experiences though, learned a lot.
Safe flying.
.
2/ Got over-taken on the left by a Twinstar this week just gone near St. Kilda - not overly happy about that. Still don't know if they had seen me.
3/ The most reckless I've seen was when I was doing practice assy. cts. at rural SA aerodrome. I was the only one in the circuit and nominated RWY 26. Circuit number 3 and glider tug stated taxiing for 08 (funnily enough the 08 threshold is closest to where the tug was started from).
Sure enough 15 seconds later "XXX rolling rwy 08". I immediately asked instructor for the use of both engines. He obliged. And we went around. Even changed to 08 to suit the tug pilot. We were then lucky enough to see same tug join the circuit on crosswind at 500 ft AGL after we had made our rolling call.
It was an interesting exercise. Assy. seemed so easy after putting up with that.
4/ Gave my position ahead of a Tobago on one of my first solo navs. Said Tobago could not see me but made no attempt to arrange seperation based on my information. Subsequently we were flying formation on downwind with me on the inside of his turn should he have decided to turn base. At our closest I think we were 20m and level altitude and as I said, I could see him but he could not see me and I was in his turn direction.
I asked for an orbit and tower told him to climb to 1500' and start again. Good decision. Apparently the Tobago's instructor could see me and was "tryin to get the student to look out the window". Sure woulda been nice to know that earlier.
Good experiences though, learned a lot.
Safe flying.
Last edited by vh_ajm; 16th Sep 2007 at 21:34.
1/ North of Armidale on solo nav exercise, sighted an aircraft with trail behind opposite direction on descent - thinks, what's an ag plane doing dropping his load from such a height (about 2000agl) Suddenly realised it's getting close real quick - I immediately turned left, as it was going to pass on my right - It was an F111 on descent to low level - passed about 100 metres away same level. I had to divert back to Armidale due wx - after landing I got the shakes for a while from just thinking about it.
Coffs Flight Service had done broadcasts on the F111 as 400 agl, so I thought I was well clear - this one had obviously gone up to his lsalt and when regained VMC was on descent again.
2/ At Tamworth, I'm on left base 21, a C310 inbound from SW had been instructed to overfly field and then track for left base, report base. 310 calls base. I hadn't sighted it overflying and I'm looking left and right behind me for this 310, can't see it. Face the front and there it is on right base pointing straight at me. Tower noticed the f***up about this time and instructed the 310 to turn left immediately.
Coffs Flight Service had done broadcasts on the F111 as 400 agl, so I thought I was well clear - this one had obviously gone up to his lsalt and when regained VMC was on descent again.
2/ At Tamworth, I'm on left base 21, a C310 inbound from SW had been instructed to overfly field and then track for left base, report base. 310 calls base. I hadn't sighted it overflying and I'm looking left and right behind me for this 310, can't see it. Face the front and there it is on right base pointing straight at me. Tower noticed the f***up about this time and instructed the 310 to turn left immediately.
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FTDK
If you've never had one it might because you were blissfully unaware of any conflicting traffic. Try flying a light a/c fitted with TCAS and I can assure you that you'll see traffic you would otherwise never have known was there.
Also:
For "Rapid and Profound" try "evasive"
If you've never had one it might because you were blissfully unaware of any conflicting traffic. Try flying a light a/c fitted with TCAS and I can assure you that you'll see traffic you would otherwise never have known was there.
Also:
For "Rapid and Profound" try "evasive"
CTAF circuits with an elderly ultralight pilot in quite possibly the single mostridiculous looking aircraft I've ever seen, and uglier than a 170 year old germaine greer, where the flesh has started to decay and, well you get the point) mixing it up with various light trainers and a light twin inbound
"Ultralight ### turning downwind" (said aircraft cruising around 45 - 50 kts in the circuit, 152s in slow crz with flap still catching him
)
A solo student loses sight of him, so asks him of his location in the circuit
....Long pause....
"Ultralight ### turning base"
Someone else tries to contact him.
Sure enough, slightly shorter pause (base is shorter than downwind)
"Ultralight ### turning final"
Slow, stupid aircraft is also so far out that all behind him may as well give a 5 mile straight in call if they follow. Many a midair narrowly avoided that day, mostly due to proper lookout by the (comparably) high performance 150s, definitely not due to the ultralight, who seems unable to understand that you can use the radio to HEAR WHAT OTHER AIRCRAFT SAY AS WELL AS TALK TO THEM.
Well done buddy
Arr, the ranting be over!
"Ultralight ### turning downwind" (said aircraft cruising around 45 - 50 kts in the circuit, 152s in slow crz with flap still catching him
)A solo student loses sight of him, so asks him of his location in the circuit
....Long pause....
"Ultralight ### turning base"
Someone else tries to contact him.
Sure enough, slightly shorter pause (base is shorter than downwind)
"Ultralight ### turning final"
Slow, stupid aircraft is also so far out that all behind him may as well give a 5 mile straight in call if they follow. Many a midair narrowly avoided that day, mostly due to proper lookout by the (comparably) high performance 150s, definitely not due to the ultralight, who seems unable to understand that you can use the radio to HEAR WHAT OTHER AIRCRAFT SAY AS WELL AS TALK TO THEM.
Well done buddyArr, the ranting be over!
Back in the mid 70's I was flying helicopter patrols, for the UN, up and down the Sinai Peninsula and came face to face with an Egyptian Mig 17 while tracking down the east side of the Suez Canal. We were at the same level, 3000', opposite direction and it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to change track. We diverged and passed and I really don't know whether he saw us at all.
Of more concern in that area was being constantly tracked by Russian made, Egyptian owned ZSU23-4s, which were a four barrell 23mm radar controlled AA gun.
Regards,
BH.
Of more concern in that area was being constantly tracked by Russian made, Egyptian owned ZSU23-4s, which were a four barrell 23mm radar controlled AA gun.
Regards,
BH.
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Doing circuits at a rural airfield, not long after solo and Instructor watching me from terra firma. Well known 172 puts out one radio call that he's shortly passing through, and pass through he did - at circuit height whilst I was mid-downwind. I just saw him pass over the top of me after I began descending and wasn't frightened as much as p*ssed off, as was my Instructor below (I believe he took some action afterwards but we never spoke of it again).
Also witnessed a near miss that was very close, made both my Instructor (same one) and myself gasp...this time at larger airfield with ATC, the tower was not impressed with the offending machine (foreign student, language problem) and there were serious words spoken once all involved were on the ground.
LP
Also witnessed a near miss that was very close, made both my Instructor (same one) and myself gasp...this time at larger airfield with ATC, the tower was not impressed with the offending machine (foreign student, language problem) and there were serious words spoken once all involved were on the ground.
LP
Last edited by Launchpad McQuack; 16th Sep 2007 at 11:42.
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Please Wally thats enough!!!
[QUOTE]
I'm currently doing battle elsewhere in here with some that take humrance over such issues esspecially in the cowboy section of aviation, AG flying!
I too have been watching that thread Wally! why do you persist in running down a particular section of Aviation
. I thought sumhorizon sumed it up well in saying we all have cowboys, just have a look at youtube and see what some airliners get up too.
Ive never had a near miss with an aggie but can think of many with barrons and 310's and even one in my training days at Coolangatta so long ago when a boeing entered the runway while I'm on finals.
I'm currently doing battle elsewhere in here with some that take humrance over such issues esspecially in the cowboy section of aviation, AG flying!
I too have been watching that thread Wally! why do you persist in running down a particular section of Aviation
. I thought sumhorizon sumed it up well in saying we all have cowboys, just have a look at youtube and see what some airliners get up too. Ive never had a near miss with an aggie but can think of many with barrons and 310's and even one in my training days at Coolangatta so long ago when a boeing entered the runway while I'm on finals.
Fifty feet below me and fast from right to left with his tail between his legs - the bronze coloured Warrior who broke controlled airspace somewhere near Westgate at about 0610 yesterday morning on the Dawn patrol.
He incurred the displeasure both of Melbourne Radar and a ***ing big Emirates aircraft who was delayed in being cleared for his approach to 34 as a result.
I was too busy watching the landing lights of that big Emirates thing coming towards me to notice him.
Hope you saw me, whoever you are.....
He incurred the displeasure both of Melbourne Radar and a ***ing big Emirates aircraft who was delayed in being cleared for his approach to 34 as a result.
I was too busy watching the landing lights of that big Emirates thing coming towards me to notice him.
Hope you saw me, whoever you are.....
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.............MURLOW...........you need to read some more of my posts......i've mentioned a few times that not all AG guys are cowboys, ( I might have given that impression at first but soon made it clear not all are like that & it's rife in all area's) If you have formed this opinion then yr wrong. I have also made mention that all sectors of this industry have 'cowboys'. Hey I'm not the only one saying as much in here, sheeeez you think I'm the only one that has seen poor airmanship in the AG field?...........wake up man !!!! if it touches a nerve then good, I've achievd what I wanted to in some ways. Look it's not about who can upset who the most in here it's about being alert & listening to those that have had first hand experience at such stunts, hence the original disscusion about poor airmanship etc & someones experience. The AG boys are just part of the problem!
............shall we move on now?
Capt wally
if it touches a nerve then good, I've achievd what I wanted to in some ways. Look it's not about who can upset who the most in here it's about being alert & listening to those that have had first hand experience at such stunts, hence the original disscusion about poor airmanship etc & someones experience. The AG boys are just part of the problem!............shall we move on now?
Capt wally
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As a student pilot I used to go flying at odd times when it was less likely there would be other students flying in the training area. This was the result of a being freaked out by aircraft turning up in my windscreen on a number of occasions. It freaked me out even more when, what I always worried about happened a few years later in NZ;
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...ectid=10367642
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...ectid=10367642
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YMMB many, many years ago doing night solo circuits for my NVFR. First I new of this twin was when the instrument panel went white in front of me from his strobes.