rfdswa
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Name ONE charter operator that will send you out in the middle of the night to land on a 900m dirt strip lit only by 6 kero cans..
I have seen med 1's turn back because the cloud base was at minimums, but thirty miles north, the cloud was breaking up, the base had lifted to above minimums and I flew up to the base to accurately report it to the pilot and it had 5 mile holes in it. I personally reported this to the pilot via radio, as I was working in the area at low level.
I have heard them refuse to go into strips that far exceed anything most GA blokes would go to. as for 900m strips........... name me a couple that they visit. There aint that many I can assure you.
Definitely GA, however it was once regarded as the high end of GA but now that has all changed. Why? Mainly because it has become highly corparitised, the flying hours have trebled in only 15 years or so and most of those are due to heavier demand for interhospital transfers (ie air ambulance/patient transfers).
What that means for the average RFDS pilot is (a) they are flying a lot more mostly P3s (over 90%) and most of that is on the backend of the clock. (b) most of the prior extra benefits have been eroded eg company car with unlimited fuel card, subsidised rent (have heard 20 dollars a week was not unheard of) with no or very little amenities to pay.
Although you can say they are only GA, RFDS pilots on the whole are still required to be trained and current on some of the most challenging forms of IFR flying ie limited flare, road landings, marginal strips, high performance, single pilot, multiple diversions etc. I believe this requires a pilot with a high experience level and knowledge of aviation extremes that the average GA charter pilot just doesn't have.
So you could argue that the guys at Westops have a pretty strong argument to be bleating about a major payrise. The fun an nostalgia of working for an Australian icon has all but eroded it is now just a hard slog! I know I used to work for them!
What that means for the average RFDS pilot is (a) they are flying a lot more mostly P3s (over 90%) and most of that is on the backend of the clock. (b) most of the prior extra benefits have been eroded eg company car with unlimited fuel card, subsidised rent (have heard 20 dollars a week was not unheard of) with no or very little amenities to pay.
Although you can say they are only GA, RFDS pilots on the whole are still required to be trained and current on some of the most challenging forms of IFR flying ie limited flare, road landings, marginal strips, high performance, single pilot, multiple diversions etc. I believe this requires a pilot with a high experience level and knowledge of aviation extremes that the average GA charter pilot just doesn't have.
So you could argue that the guys at Westops have a pretty strong argument to be bleating about a major payrise. The fun an nostalgia of working for an Australian icon has all but eroded it is now just a hard slog! I know I used to work for them!
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The RFDS train their pilots to land with 6 Kero cans only ( limited flare path ) this consists of 4 on the left side of strip and one at each end on the right side. As for turning back with bad weather. RFDS pilots are very experienced guys and they have done all that before, They have rules to follow and they do. No point in risking 3 lives to save one.
But that is beside the point, ALL pilots need more money for what we do. Well done to the RFDS guys for doing something about this.
But that is beside the point, ALL pilots need more money for what we do. Well done to the RFDS guys for doing something about this.
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Name one RFDS base that would send you out to a 900M strip lit by six kero cans.The minimums for an RFDS strip are far more than most GA strips and the lighting is never six kero cans, I can assure you. I live in the bush and have seen what the RFDS require before they will go there. Mate, your living in the looooong gone past.
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the bases that will send you out with strips less than 1000mtr is Meekatharra, Port Hedland Derby, Kalgoorlie, JT.
All the bases will be sent to where the emergency is.
Forget about kero lamps, what about using reflectors, the training for those is to use only 4 of them, I would like to see the wizard try this, also might just add a cross wind of around 18kts just to make the blood pumper go up a notch.
This doesnt happen all the time but we are trained for it and we do it.
Mate I think you are the one that is living in the long gone past
All the bases will be sent to where the emergency is.
Forget about kero lamps, what about using reflectors, the training for those is to use only 4 of them, I would like to see the wizard try this, also might just add a cross wind of around 18kts just to make the blood pumper go up a notch.
This doesnt happen all the time but we are trained for it and we do it.
Mate I think you are the one that is living in the long gone past
I wouldn't say RFDS pilots have inflated ego's, very far from it actually. A gungho attitude is not tolerated. They have very strict guidelines in place with regards to safety, but situations described above (using a few kero lamps, reflectors, car headlights etc.) are not unheard of.
They must of course, consider all other variables at play at the time, and if possible, any other alternatives. If all risks have been identified and considered, are within the systems and the pilots limitations and no other alternative exists, then you have yourself a mercy flight and landing off 'a few flares' or car headlights is considered nessecary. These are last resorts of course.
Wiz, always respect your opinions, but maybe in this instance the pilots in question considered the risks too high, and the medical problem that existed may have just been minor. Unless it's life threatening (mercy flight), it can always wait until daybreak,. As someone said above, no use risking 3 lives just to save 1.
Gudija, yes there are a few young lowly timed blokes in the service these days. But they're the exception rather than the rule. Few and very far between. They still have to pass the same training as the other guys do (proficiency checks, instrument ratings, night checks which include car headlight landings etc.), and have a watchful eye over everything they do. Same rules exist for them as they do for everyone else.
Putting RFDS guys into the same class as charter pilots though, that's a bit of an insult isn't it....??
. Last I remember, charter guys weren't required to be around blood, guts, and other medical things, all while flying at unusual hours of the night on a regular basis.
I only did charter for about 5-6 years, but I never remember being woken up at 2am one night, to go up to some station in the middle of woop woop so the doctor can treat a snake bite, or the following night being sent out at 7pm for a hospital transfer, then on your way home being re-tasked to go out to some strip you've never heard of, let alone seen, to land off flares so you can get someone who's just had a car accident and severely injured themselves, eventually getting back to base at 8am the next morning.
Have a lot of respect for the guys and girls in the various RFDS sections. They do a brilliant job,.
morno
They must of course, consider all other variables at play at the time, and if possible, any other alternatives. If all risks have been identified and considered, are within the systems and the pilots limitations and no other alternative exists, then you have yourself a mercy flight and landing off 'a few flares' or car headlights is considered nessecary. These are last resorts of course.
Wiz, always respect your opinions, but maybe in this instance the pilots in question considered the risks too high, and the medical problem that existed may have just been minor. Unless it's life threatening (mercy flight), it can always wait until daybreak,
. As someone said above, no use risking 3 lives just to save 1.Gudija, yes there are a few young lowly timed blokes in the service these days. But they're the exception rather than the rule. Few and very far between. They still have to pass the same training as the other guys do (proficiency checks, instrument ratings, night checks which include car headlight landings etc.), and have a watchful eye over everything they do. Same rules exist for them as they do for everyone else.
Putting RFDS guys into the same class as charter pilots though, that's a bit of an insult isn't it....??
. Last I remember, charter guys weren't required to be around blood, guts, and other medical things, all while flying at unusual hours of the night on a regular basis.I only did charter for about 5-6 years, but I never remember being woken up at 2am one night, to go up to some station in the middle of woop woop so the doctor can treat a snake bite, or the following night being sent out at 7pm for a hospital transfer, then on your way home being re-tasked to go out to some strip you've never heard of, let alone seen, to land off flares so you can get someone who's just had a car accident and severely injured themselves, eventually getting back to base at 8am the next morning.
Have a lot of respect for the guys and girls in the various RFDS sections. They do a brilliant job,
.morno
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Ive seen the reflectors....... they are like bloody flood lights. I regularly land where the RFDS won't, and have also used minimal type lighting. But, this aint about where I'll fly into. its about why the RFDS pilots think they should be paid more.
they have modern equipment (with beta range for those oh so short 900 mtr strips) and modern avionics with all the bells and whistles,with generally way better company supplied training, doing essentially the same job others are doing in far less equipment and far less money. (I know I know...... the others need to lift the wages game as well).
they are already paid better than most of the GA community (don't kid yourself, your GA).
over the years the RFDS has moved away from the "fly into anywhere, anytime" type of organization, and is more a corporate charter type outfit, with much higher standards for where they will and won't go. I've personally heard them whinge about strips that were, although a little rough, perfectly suitable for the aircraft they were using. seen em turn back when all they had to do was wander a a little north, convert back to VFR and go back to where the patient was waiting under the cloud, but well above the minima for an approach (and it was 8 in the morning, so light wasn't an issue). I managed to get there without any issues or breaking the law, or being unsafe, and I aint no super pilot.
anyway, I agree with LHRT, there are ego issues as well. I'll watch from the sidelines . good luck with your fight.
they have modern equipment (with beta range for those oh so short 900 mtr strips) and modern avionics with all the bells and whistles,with generally way better company supplied training, doing essentially the same job others are doing in far less equipment and far less money. (I know I know...... the others need to lift the wages game as well).
they are already paid better than most of the GA community (don't kid yourself, your GA).
over the years the RFDS has moved away from the "fly into anywhere, anytime" type of organization, and is more a corporate charter type outfit, with much higher standards for where they will and won't go. I've personally heard them whinge about strips that were, although a little rough, perfectly suitable for the aircraft they were using. seen em turn back when all they had to do was wander a a little north, convert back to VFR and go back to where the patient was waiting under the cloud, but well above the minima for an approach (and it was 8 in the morning, so light wasn't an issue). I managed to get there without any issues or breaking the law, or being unsafe, and I aint no super pilot.
anyway, I agree with LHRT, there are ego issues as well. I'll watch from the sidelines . good luck with your fight.
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Only GA???
What's this about the RFDS being ONLY GA? What we call "GA"(a rediculous term) is some of the most important flying in the country.
Our coastal based govt/ beaurocracy has been ignoring the needs of inland Australia for ever. There aren't many votes there. That is why they have had to declare a national emergency when they were presented with a report showing that child sex abuse exists in some sixty odd outback comunities in the N.T.
This is nothing new. This "emergency" has been there for decades, but it was ignored until they were publicly handed yet another report, and they had to act, or let the voters see that they do not care. It has been on TV, and there is an election coming. Nothing to do with politics??? and passing the buck to the NT will not work. The NT people have been trying to fix it with meagre resources for decades. It was ONLY the outback. (not many votes there.) so the Feds could blame the NT govt, and forget it.
And most of the aviation in the outback is "ONLY GA", and only useful for training newbies, and giving them somewhere to "hold" while "enduring" that interminable wait for an airline job.
The RFDS is an ESSENTIAL part of the health services that we pay taxes for. But it is "ONLY GA" and ONLY THE OUTBACK" so they have to ask the public for money, and are described as a charity.?????. Sure the Govts provide some money, but not enough. Is this why we pay for those thirteen houses of parliament, and the armies of beaurocrats? Why don't they do the job we pay them for? The RFDS should be TOTALLY FUNDED BY THE FEDS. People of the outback have no other option. There is a saying in the territory. "If in pain, catch a plane."
I believe that CASA has proved to be incompetent to supervise GA, but this also is tolerated, like the child sex abuse, and the 3000 people in Alice Springs waiting for surgery.
I guess it is only the outback people they are looking after. (not many votes there.)
The RFDS is an essential seervice and has a history of paying salaries a little better than the GA award with a few perks like a car (which is the cheapest way of ensuring prompt 3am departures, as there is not even a taxi available at that time at some bases.) They also have a history of providing almost sufficient crew for the average level of activity, and expect pilots to work extra to cope with the peaks. They are an emergency service and should be crewed to cope with the peaks. They also routinely rostered pilots for 12 hour shifts which often got extended. Sometimes back to back 12 hour shifts. Since most flights involve about four hours of duty time it was easy to have sixteen hour duties, and I remember landing after being on the go for abour 23 hours. Not good. Got my bum kicked for it, but that goes with the job. (admin was in the coastal capital city) This should be fixed, and it can be easily fixed by hiring more pilots. They should be rostered for 8 hours.
RFDS IS GA (whatever that is) and the pilots are generally paid better than most light aircraft pilots, but it is absurd to think that SO's in airlines are paid double that ammount. Today, many GA salaries (where they can get a salary) are indecently low, and unsustainable.
RFDS pilots should be paid MUCH MORE than today's average GA salary., It is unrealistic, and will increase soon.
Being a GA pilot in outback Australia is an honourable profession.
WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!!
Our coastal based govt/ beaurocracy has been ignoring the needs of inland Australia for ever. There aren't many votes there. That is why they have had to declare a national emergency when they were presented with a report showing that child sex abuse exists in some sixty odd outback comunities in the N.T.
This is nothing new. This "emergency" has been there for decades, but it was ignored until they were publicly handed yet another report, and they had to act, or let the voters see that they do not care. It has been on TV, and there is an election coming. Nothing to do with politics??? and passing the buck to the NT will not work. The NT people have been trying to fix it with meagre resources for decades. It was ONLY the outback. (not many votes there.) so the Feds could blame the NT govt, and forget it.
And most of the aviation in the outback is "ONLY GA", and only useful for training newbies, and giving them somewhere to "hold" while "enduring" that interminable wait for an airline job.
The RFDS is an ESSENTIAL part of the health services that we pay taxes for. But it is "ONLY GA" and ONLY THE OUTBACK" so they have to ask the public for money, and are described as a charity.?????. Sure the Govts provide some money, but not enough. Is this why we pay for those thirteen houses of parliament, and the armies of beaurocrats? Why don't they do the job we pay them for? The RFDS should be TOTALLY FUNDED BY THE FEDS. People of the outback have no other option. There is a saying in the territory. "If in pain, catch a plane."
I believe that CASA has proved to be incompetent to supervise GA, but this also is tolerated, like the child sex abuse, and the 3000 people in Alice Springs waiting for surgery.
I guess it is only the outback people they are looking after. (not many votes there.)
The RFDS is an essential seervice and has a history of paying salaries a little better than the GA award with a few perks like a car (which is the cheapest way of ensuring prompt 3am departures, as there is not even a taxi available at that time at some bases.) They also have a history of providing almost sufficient crew for the average level of activity, and expect pilots to work extra to cope with the peaks. They are an emergency service and should be crewed to cope with the peaks. They also routinely rostered pilots for 12 hour shifts which often got extended. Sometimes back to back 12 hour shifts. Since most flights involve about four hours of duty time it was easy to have sixteen hour duties, and I remember landing after being on the go for abour 23 hours. Not good. Got my bum kicked for it, but that goes with the job. (admin was in the coastal capital city) This should be fixed, and it can be easily fixed by hiring more pilots. They should be rostered for 8 hours.
RFDS IS GA (whatever that is) and the pilots are generally paid better than most light aircraft pilots, but it is absurd to think that SO's in airlines are paid double that ammount. Today, many GA salaries (where they can get a salary) are indecently low, and unsustainable.
RFDS pilots should be paid MUCH MORE than today's average GA salary., It is unrealistic, and will increase soon.
Being a GA pilot in outback Australia is an honourable profession.
WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!!
Last edited by bushy; 4th Jul 2007 at 05:59. Reason: fat fingers-little keys.
Lets take a step back and look at the issues here.
One issue is ensuring the current pay rates are aligned with what they have been promised in the past. The other is what is a fair rate of pay for the future. Do not confuse the two.
Wiz, getting into a pissing contest about whose strips are rougher is not winning anyone any favours. You are right in that in the past it was a get in at all cost mentality and much more "bush" flying in missing potholes etc. The reality with the RFDS today is that they cannot afford to be that. They are tasked with providing a first world professional health service. The choice of aircraft and the demands expect that.
You can take off on in Daisy on a goat tack on the Nullarbor with the station owner, but as a patient of the Government Health Department, you get a higher level of safety. That is why the strips are of a certain standard. The stakes are higher flying health patients in a B200/PC12 than a small town GA operator flying a 310 and a 172.
Insurances also drive this. A few years ago the RFDS was hit with a double whammy - medical and aviation insurance jumped in a very short space of time. Sadly the funding from the Govt did not. The RFDS cannot afford the risk of a kangaroo strike or termite mound. It also does no favours to suggest that RFDS pilots don't go to minima etc or use a hole elsewhere to get in. There could have been a number of other reasons why that pilot did not continue - a higher priority task, fuel, duty, etc. If not, do not tarnish every RFDS pilot with that brush.
You mention that the job has changed into more of a corporate world. That is right and it is more than ever a government service with patients in a hospital needing to be transferred to Captial City for an MRI going by air. It is no longer solely aero retrievals, however the aero retreivals in the middle of the night, single pilot IFR to strips lit with 6 kero flares still happen.
The olden days saw lots of bases flying people back in to the local hospital. Nowdays, it's mostly transfers to Perth. Yes, the planes are faster and have more kit, but the nature of these longer transfers means a lot more back of the clock flying. The workload has increased significantly too at the expense of lifestyle. Once it was a good solid job for life, nowdays it is not sustainable with many guys having eyes hanging out of their heads from fatigue.
And now to the issue of pay. I will not comment on current negotiations nor personalities involved, but consider this:
The patient transfers for the RFDS have to be done. The workload is high for everybody. You cannot (like in the charter world) just up your prices to thin out the work and increase your profits and stay within your operational limits.
Let's say base A is short of a crew. Base B has to fly to that base complete the work and then return to A. It is not a matter of it merely being aborbed, it creates extra work for already fatigued crews (medics included).
You need to attract crew. And keep them. Is it any wonder there is a high turnover with the (lack of) money being paid with higher paying jobs without the back of clock flying out there? You cannot solve this with the QF approach to just open a flying school and absorb the cadets. This shortage will get worse and worse.
There is mounting frustration in many circles that middle managers cannot see this. Continued head in the sand contempt to pilot bodies (not just talking westops here) is damaging morale and increasing the workload of the remaining crews (and cost of running the organisation).
You know the qualifications to join the RFDS. How many years of flying (and life experience too) do you normally need to get them? Compare with other professions. Is the pay equivalent? I dare say not.
Compare with other flying jobs. I know of at least FO job on a slightly larger turboprop that pays more than the RFDS base salary and there is less workload, and they are not based in small country towns.
It is frustrating to see that when other professions have a skills shortage, organisations are prepared to pay to attract and keep staff. Compare the nurses pay to a standard hospital nurse if you want a clear example of this. For curious reasons, there is a reluctance to extend this to the pilot body, to the continued detriment of the organisation (s).
One issue is ensuring the current pay rates are aligned with what they have been promised in the past. The other is what is a fair rate of pay for the future. Do not confuse the two.
Wiz, getting into a pissing contest about whose strips are rougher is not winning anyone any favours. You are right in that in the past it was a get in at all cost mentality and much more "bush" flying in missing potholes etc. The reality with the RFDS today is that they cannot afford to be that. They are tasked with providing a first world professional health service. The choice of aircraft and the demands expect that.
You can take off on in Daisy on a goat tack on the Nullarbor with the station owner, but as a patient of the Government Health Department, you get a higher level of safety. That is why the strips are of a certain standard. The stakes are higher flying health patients in a B200/PC12 than a small town GA operator flying a 310 and a 172.
Insurances also drive this. A few years ago the RFDS was hit with a double whammy - medical and aviation insurance jumped in a very short space of time. Sadly the funding from the Govt did not. The RFDS cannot afford the risk of a kangaroo strike or termite mound. It also does no favours to suggest that RFDS pilots don't go to minima etc or use a hole elsewhere to get in. There could have been a number of other reasons why that pilot did not continue - a higher priority task, fuel, duty, etc. If not, do not tarnish every RFDS pilot with that brush.
You mention that the job has changed into more of a corporate world. That is right and it is more than ever a government service with patients in a hospital needing to be transferred to Captial City for an MRI going by air. It is no longer solely aero retrievals, however the aero retreivals in the middle of the night, single pilot IFR to strips lit with 6 kero flares still happen.
The olden days saw lots of bases flying people back in to the local hospital. Nowdays, it's mostly transfers to Perth. Yes, the planes are faster and have more kit, but the nature of these longer transfers means a lot more back of the clock flying. The workload has increased significantly too at the expense of lifestyle. Once it was a good solid job for life, nowdays it is not sustainable with many guys having eyes hanging out of their heads from fatigue.
And now to the issue of pay. I will not comment on current negotiations nor personalities involved, but consider this:
The patient transfers for the RFDS have to be done. The workload is high for everybody. You cannot (like in the charter world) just up your prices to thin out the work and increase your profits and stay within your operational limits.
Let's say base A is short of a crew. Base B has to fly to that base complete the work and then return to A. It is not a matter of it merely being aborbed, it creates extra work for already fatigued crews (medics included).
You need to attract crew. And keep them. Is it any wonder there is a high turnover with the (lack of) money being paid with higher paying jobs without the back of clock flying out there? You cannot solve this with the QF approach to just open a flying school and absorb the cadets. This shortage will get worse and worse.
There is mounting frustration in many circles that middle managers cannot see this. Continued head in the sand contempt to pilot bodies (not just talking westops here) is damaging morale and increasing the workload of the remaining crews (and cost of running the organisation).
You know the qualifications to join the RFDS. How many years of flying (and life experience too) do you normally need to get them? Compare with other professions. Is the pay equivalent? I dare say not.
Compare with other flying jobs. I know of at least FO job on a slightly larger turboprop that pays more than the RFDS base salary and there is less workload, and they are not based in small country towns.
It is frustrating to see that when other professions have a skills shortage, organisations are prepared to pay to attract and keep staff. Compare the nurses pay to a standard hospital nurse if you want a clear example of this. For curious reasons, there is a reluctance to extend this to the pilot body, to the continued detriment of the organisation (s).
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"For curious reasons, there is a reluctance to extend this to the pilot body, to the continued detriment of the organisation (s)."
Interesting observation.
It seems to be the common denominator in all discussions relating to this issue, across all employers of air crew, regardless of employer status (GA/Tprop/Jet).
What is really driving this reluctance to face up to the facts of crew shortages, and pony up the dollars? What has made Ops/Admin/Management staff harbour such contempt toward the pilot group in their respective companies that they would rather park aeroplanes than even discuss the possibility of pay rises? The new hire nurses versus pilot wages discrepancy at RFDS is repeated all over the aviation industry - simply insert 'admin/ops/baggage staff' for nurse. As professional operators of sophisticated equipment, we are well and truly outside the wages sweetspot everyone else in this booming economy enjoys.
Look all over this board, and every thread relating to this particular issue carries numerous references to stubborn, defiant and threatening attitudes to pilots in this supposed golden age of the pilot shortage. What is the source of this underlying and occasionally naked contempt for pilots?
IMHO this is the key issue. It needs to be identified. Were going nowhere on this wage issue while the folks calling the $$ shots would rather burn down the house than talk compromise.
Kingswood.
Interesting observation.
It seems to be the common denominator in all discussions relating to this issue, across all employers of air crew, regardless of employer status (GA/Tprop/Jet).
What is really driving this reluctance to face up to the facts of crew shortages, and pony up the dollars? What has made Ops/Admin/Management staff harbour such contempt toward the pilot group in their respective companies that they would rather park aeroplanes than even discuss the possibility of pay rises? The new hire nurses versus pilot wages discrepancy at RFDS is repeated all over the aviation industry - simply insert 'admin/ops/baggage staff' for nurse. As professional operators of sophisticated equipment, we are well and truly outside the wages sweetspot everyone else in this booming economy enjoys.
Look all over this board, and every thread relating to this particular issue carries numerous references to stubborn, defiant and threatening attitudes to pilots in this supposed golden age of the pilot shortage. What is the source of this underlying and occasionally naked contempt for pilots?
IMHO this is the key issue. It needs to be identified. Were going nowhere on this wage issue while the folks calling the $$ shots would rather burn down the house than talk compromise.
Kingswood.
Kingswood,
Absolutely spot on!!!
This attitude is prevalent world wide to some extent in every sector of aviation.
In the medical field for eg, in running a hospital the key people are Docs and Nurses and patients, NOT the admin /management staff.
Did everyone see that old episode of Yes Minister where they had a fully staffed and running hospital but no patients???? They couldn't afford any patients as that would blow out the budget and then they couldn't pay all the admin and support staff!!!!!
EVERY aviation company out there big or small all seem to view pilots (and Flight attendants where required) as huge liabilities instead of as their most important staff members.
It's AVIATION for God's sake. it's all about FLYING AEROPLANES, doing a specific task(and hopefully making a profit while doing so).
To do so REQUIRES PILOTS (& F/A's when needed) and LAMEs to keep them airworthy, if those people don't show up for work well the plane is not going anywhere.
If management dont show up WE can still get planes off the ground and earn money.
GGGGRRRRRRR......KABOOM!!!!!,.... my head exploding yet again.
World wide they just DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR GET THIS SIMPLE FACT!!!
**** Please no flames from anyone, I am NOT saying Management and Admin are not important and do not have their role to play.
Generally though, upper management are grossly overpaid for what they do compared to all the key staff that make it happen, whether managements decisions and choices are right or wrong.
If they are wrong as is often the case, they bail out with golden parachutes and the employees get it in the neck and either lose their jobs or take massive pay and T&C cuts to try and save the company....as has and is happening in the airline industry.
If managements all over have such contempt for pilots, then they can get out of the office, go and learn to fly and do it themselves as well as run the company. Then they might justify their salaries.
Basically, pilots are the most undervalued yet highly skilled profession out there anywhere in the world.
Aviation connects our entire world and we couldn't live without it yet it is treated by companies and governments alike in many cases as a throw away commodity as are its workers.
In the few days after 9/11 here in the USA when it suddenly wasn't around boy did that get everyones attention and hit everyones balance sheet!!!!
Ok, rant over.
Absolutely spot on!!!
This attitude is prevalent world wide to some extent in every sector of aviation.
In the medical field for eg, in running a hospital the key people are Docs and Nurses and patients, NOT the admin /management staff.
Did everyone see that old episode of Yes Minister where they had a fully staffed and running hospital but no patients???? They couldn't afford any patients as that would blow out the budget and then they couldn't pay all the admin and support staff!!!!!
EVERY aviation company out there big or small all seem to view pilots (and Flight attendants where required) as huge liabilities instead of as their most important staff members.
It's AVIATION for God's sake. it's all about FLYING AEROPLANES, doing a specific task(and hopefully making a profit while doing so).
To do so REQUIRES PILOTS (& F/A's when needed) and LAMEs to keep them airworthy, if those people don't show up for work well the plane is not going anywhere.
If management dont show up WE can still get planes off the ground and earn money.
GGGGRRRRRRR......KABOOM!!!!!,.... my head exploding yet again.
World wide they just DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR GET THIS SIMPLE FACT!!!
**** Please no flames from anyone, I am NOT saying Management and Admin are not important and do not have their role to play.
Generally though, upper management are grossly overpaid for what they do compared to all the key staff that make it happen, whether managements decisions and choices are right or wrong.
If they are wrong as is often the case, they bail out with golden parachutes and the employees get it in the neck and either lose their jobs or take massive pay and T&C cuts to try and save the company....as has and is happening in the airline industry.
If managements all over have such contempt for pilots, then they can get out of the office, go and learn to fly and do it themselves as well as run the company. Then they might justify their salaries.
Basically, pilots are the most undervalued yet highly skilled profession out there anywhere in the world.
Aviation connects our entire world and we couldn't live without it yet it is treated by companies and governments alike in many cases as a throw away commodity as are its workers.
In the few days after 9/11 here in the USA when it suddenly wasn't around boy did that get everyones attention and hit everyones balance sheet!!!!
Ok, rant over.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Ok, going out on a limb here, but when these people apply for the much coveted RFDS position, surely they are told what the wages and conditions are before they sign on. If they agree to a set of conditions and the salary, how is it the want to change it half way through the contract?. if they aren't happy with the conditions and money, and can't negotiate a better set of conditions, wander off to get the job that is better for them, with suitable money and conditions.
enough people don't resign and, although the service will suffer initially, they will eventually have to up the money and better the conditions to attract staff.
going to court would be if one of the involved parties didn't come good with what they promised, I would have thought.
Stallie, I'm not arguing about why they require higher standards for strips, and I understand the insurance man has a lot to do with it, nor do I disagree with it. I was pointing out the fact that it is a whole different job to what most perceive it to be, and the days of belting in and out of goat tracks in 180s on VFR plans at three in the morning to have to land with the Toyota lights on the threshold and a dodgy altimeter are over.
enough people don't resign and, although the service will suffer initially, they will eventually have to up the money and better the conditions to attract staff.
going to court would be if one of the involved parties didn't come good with what they promised, I would have thought.
Stallie, I'm not arguing about why they require higher standards for strips, and I understand the insurance man has a lot to do with it, nor do I disagree with it. I was pointing out the fact that it is a whole different job to what most perceive it to be, and the days of belting in and out of goat tracks in 180s on VFR plans at three in the morning to have to land with the Toyota lights on the threshold and a dodgy altimeter are over.
Wiz, me old....
Yes, you sign up and agree to pay and conditions at present no arguments there. However you also have a reasonable expectation that your salary and packages will go up over time at a rate comparable to at least CPI. If you are also suddenly expected to work harder and more hours, then your pay increases at bargaining time should also reflect that. Negotiations should also be held in a timely manner, without contempt for the pilot group.
What you say is occurring - people are wandering off for better terms and conditions. Trouble is that makes those left behind work harder to pick up the slack, raising their workloads making them unhappy and the circle starts again.
Yes, you sign up and agree to pay and conditions at present no arguments there. However you also have a reasonable expectation that your salary and packages will go up over time at a rate comparable to at least CPI. If you are also suddenly expected to work harder and more hours, then your pay increases at bargaining time should also reflect that. Negotiations should also be held in a timely manner, without contempt for the pilot group.
What you say is occurring - people are wandering off for better terms and conditions. Trouble is that makes those left behind work harder to pick up the slack, raising their workloads making them unhappy and the circle starts again.
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Having flown NSWAA in recent years and currently on a regional jet (~100 seats) I reckon single pilot IFR for an aeromed outfit is one of the most demanding jobs in aviation. From the $$$$$ point of view it should be paying AT LEAST $120K pa (indexed to CPI)+ super+ house(remote/regional areas) + car + 8 weeks annual leave+2 airfares for family pa to nearest capital city. Like "the castle", tell me I'm dreamin' but that is how it should be.
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wiz of oz,
Just to let you know that RFDSwa have lost 12+ pilots in the last 2 yrs, this once was unheard of for a RFDS company.
Most of the reason is a lifestyle thing, not the type of work.
One guy with a very young family never got home until way past his sign off time, or maybe had to stay in Perth due to hour restrictions, in the end called it quits because his other half was fed up with him getting home 11.00pm and he was the D1 pilot, the guys are willing to do the extra yard but want to be paid for doing it.
Cant give you details why the court action as it is still pending with the feds, but what the guys are asking for is for recognition of the work.That all they want.Also to answer your question, yes they do read the contract, and it says that you will be on shift from 0600 to 1800, it does say you are required to be on shift at 0600 but might not get called out until 1700, then come home at 2.30am, with the health system here in WA this is happening more and more as the regional hospitials dont keep patients, they get them shipped of to the city.
Just to let you know that RFDSwa have lost 12+ pilots in the last 2 yrs, this once was unheard of for a RFDS company.
Most of the reason is a lifestyle thing, not the type of work.
One guy with a very young family never got home until way past his sign off time, or maybe had to stay in Perth due to hour restrictions, in the end called it quits because his other half was fed up with him getting home 11.00pm and he was the D1 pilot, the guys are willing to do the extra yard but want to be paid for doing it.
Cant give you details why the court action as it is still pending with the feds, but what the guys are asking for is for recognition of the work.That all they want.Also to answer your question, yes they do read the contract, and it says that you will be on shift from 0600 to 1800, it does say you are required to be on shift at 0600 but might not get called out until 1700, then come home at 2.30am, with the health system here in WA this is happening more and more as the regional hospitials dont keep patients, they get them shipped of to the city.
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One guy with a very young family never got home until way past his sign off time, or maybe had to stay in Perth due to hour restrictions, in the end called it quits because his other half was fed up with him getting home 11.00pm and he was the D1 pilot, the guys are willing to do the extra yard but want to be paid for doing it.
No thanks.I'd rather stay with my "it's only GA" poorly paid Charter job and HAVE a life.
