How employable are Instructors?
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How employable are Instructors?
Surrounded by excellent Multi IFR instructors, I like my collegues demonstrate enroute IFR navigation and instrument approaches to a high degree of accuracy. Yet when applying for an illusive twin Charter job, whether it's at Skippers or the low end RPT services, we are hounded by our lack of Charter time.
I realise instructors wouldn't have delt directly with passengers, I realise instructors do have more of an option whether to go, or, not to go - but, at the end of the day, employed on a full time basis flying Multi IFR, surely Instructors would be a valuble asset to charter companies out there... future check and training perhaps?
by the way, I'm talking about guys with 2000hours, 600 multi, 300 planned IFR ~ roughly,
so why aren't we being considered more seriously?
2b
I realise instructors wouldn't have delt directly with passengers, I realise instructors do have more of an option whether to go, or, not to go - but, at the end of the day, employed on a full time basis flying Multi IFR, surely Instructors would be a valuble asset to charter companies out there... future check and training perhaps?
by the way, I'm talking about guys with 2000hours, 600 multi, 300 planned IFR ~ roughly,
so why aren't we being considered more seriously?
2b
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Instructors are very employable..
It just depends on the individual him/her self that dictates whether or not they're going to get a job outside of instructing..
I've seen it where myself, and others that were VFR single engine instructors get multi crew multi engine turbine jobs as F/O while the IFR instructors are still IFR instructing at the same company to this day. (To be fair they get paid a fair wage for their services) 4 of us left as VFR single instructors to become F/O s on turbines...
It definely helps to have experience other that instructing. Whether it be single or twin commercial experience. It is very obvious once training starts who has commercial experience and who has only instructing experience.
Instructing itself is not bad.. it just helps to have something else with it.. whether it be a squirt of commercial/survey experience as well into the mix..
From my own experience, I've seen a few instructors with purely instructing time come through thinking they're God's gift to aviation and expect a command in a few months compared to that of many that have instructing time but also a bit of commercial time of sorts who have a more keen and willing attitude to learn than their instructing only counterparts..
It just depends on the individual him/her self that dictates whether or not they're going to get a job outside of instructing..
I've seen it where myself, and others that were VFR single engine instructors get multi crew multi engine turbine jobs as F/O while the IFR instructors are still IFR instructing at the same company to this day. (To be fair they get paid a fair wage for their services) 4 of us left as VFR single instructors to become F/O s on turbines...
It definely helps to have experience other that instructing. Whether it be single or twin commercial experience. It is very obvious once training starts who has commercial experience and who has only instructing experience.
Instructing itself is not bad.. it just helps to have something else with it.. whether it be a squirt of commercial/survey experience as well into the mix..
From my own experience, I've seen a few instructors with purely instructing time come through thinking they're God's gift to aviation and expect a command in a few months compared to that of many that have instructing time but also a bit of commercial time of sorts who have a more keen and willing attitude to learn than their instructing only counterparts..
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Instructors are indeed very employable... just look up "McDonalds" in the phone book...
Seriously though, few charter companies need more than one or two check and training guys, and virtually all their pilots have probably instructed at one time or another... besides, the charter companies know that most of their new hires are just using them as a stepping stone to something else, so why invest the money in training them up?
Charter and instructing are two different things, being good at one doesn't make you good at the other. You think in different ways, and apply different criteria. For example, very few instructors have any experience in bad weather, because they don't fly when the wx is crappy. Same goes for experience flying an iced-up twin with marginal instruments and cranky nav kit. And then there are real-world command skills, like knowing when to divert and when to press on... few instructors do that for real with any regularity. And what squawks you can carry safely, etc etc etc.
Not that it can't be learned quite quickly... but employers like you to have it at the start.
Seriously though, few charter companies need more than one or two check and training guys, and virtually all their pilots have probably instructed at one time or another... besides, the charter companies know that most of their new hires are just using them as a stepping stone to something else, so why invest the money in training them up?
Charter and instructing are two different things, being good at one doesn't make you good at the other. You think in different ways, and apply different criteria. For example, very few instructors have any experience in bad weather, because they don't fly when the wx is crappy. Same goes for experience flying an iced-up twin with marginal instruments and cranky nav kit. And then there are real-world command skills, like knowing when to divert and when to press on... few instructors do that for real with any regularity. And what squawks you can carry safely, etc etc etc.
Not that it can't be learned quite quickly... but employers like you to have it at the start.
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Good question, but my question is this;
If a charter guy with 2000hrs and 600multi (all IFR) decided that he wanted to start instructing, could he walk into the flying school and expect to teach multi IFR from day one (since he was experienced in this area), or would the school expect him to get some instructional experiencefirst? The reality is that he probably wouldn’t be considered much more employable than the 250hr jnr grade 3.
I think it goes both ways. No-one disputes that a pilot with instructor only experience can fly an aircraft, but being able to fly the aircraft is only one of many skills required for scheduled charter/RPT.
It is expected that everyone who meets the minimum requirements can fly an aircraft, so I think it comes down to what other skills you have accumulated over your flying hours. If an RPT operator is looking for a pilot, they will probably consider someone with 600hrs RPT over someone with 600hrs instructing. It does make sense.
With regard to future check and training, there are plenty of guys out there with instructional and charter experience that are capable of filling those slots.
If you want to fly charter, why don’t you get some charter experience?
If a charter guy with 2000hrs and 600multi (all IFR) decided that he wanted to start instructing, could he walk into the flying school and expect to teach multi IFR from day one (since he was experienced in this area), or would the school expect him to get some instructional experiencefirst? The reality is that he probably wouldn’t be considered much more employable than the 250hr jnr grade 3.
I think it goes both ways. No-one disputes that a pilot with instructor only experience can fly an aircraft, but being able to fly the aircraft is only one of many skills required for scheduled charter/RPT.
It is expected that everyone who meets the minimum requirements can fly an aircraft, so I think it comes down to what other skills you have accumulated over your flying hours. If an RPT operator is looking for a pilot, they will probably consider someone with 600hrs RPT over someone with 600hrs instructing. It does make sense.
With regard to future check and training, there are plenty of guys out there with instructional and charter experience that are capable of filling those slots.
If you want to fly charter, why don’t you get some charter experience?
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One point that needs to be highlighted here, many aviation companies in the Low RPT / charter world generally do not employ instructors, because in the past have had many bad experiences.
This is not to say that there are not good people amongst the instructors, but the small number of terrible pilots with instructor backgrounds that have gone before you have caused irrepairable damage in the mind of the employer.
For many pilots in the charter world, packing all of your personal possesions into the sigma and heading to YPKU/YBAS/YPDN or similiar is a required pilgrimage and an automatic brotherhood of sorts.
It takes a fair amount of courage to step out of ones comfort zone and " go bush " and is a great experience that no amount of aeroclub flying can emulate.
This is not to say that there are not good people amongst the instructors, but the small number of terrible pilots with instructor backgrounds that have gone before you have caused irrepairable damage in the mind of the employer.
For many pilots in the charter world, packing all of your personal possesions into the sigma and heading to YPKU/YBAS/YPDN or similiar is a required pilgrimage and an automatic brotherhood of sorts.
It takes a fair amount of courage to step out of ones comfort zone and " go bush " and is a great experience that no amount of aeroclub flying can emulate.
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Same goes for experience flying an iced-up twin with marginal instruments and cranky nav kit. And then there are real-world command skills, like knowing when to divert and when to press on
this "real world" attitude really annoys me. ask the families of any dead instructor if they think their relative was in the real world when they bought it.
i think CPs are more likely to hire non-instructors because such people are less likely to tell them where to stick it when they are asked to fly an iced up twin.
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I agree about the sticking it part to the CP, but there are ways that you learn to do it when you go bush if you want a job/or want to keep the job.
You do learn very quickly that most CP have been around for many years and although you are pressured to earn them the money, there are ways you can speak diplomatically to resolve any situation.
As an instructor, it is part of your approach to be more abrupt. This can sometimes cause you a problem in the charter industry. There are many great instructors in our industry. However, many are absolutely pathetic!
This can often be seen from individuals in the circuit flying so far away from the circuit they should call it a nav exercise instead.
Remember, your students actions reflect your own. If they are ****e, generally you are too and probably won't make it in the charter industry.
Your job as a pilot is to work efficiently and safely for the business that you work for.
As a charter pilot, you learn to tread the line very quickly and how to deal with this pressure.
Many CP want the best for their pilots, it reflects their actions also.
You do learn very quickly that most CP have been around for many years and although you are pressured to earn them the money, there are ways you can speak diplomatically to resolve any situation.
As an instructor, it is part of your approach to be more abrupt. This can sometimes cause you a problem in the charter industry. There are many great instructors in our industry. However, many are absolutely pathetic!
This can often be seen from individuals in the circuit flying so far away from the circuit they should call it a nav exercise instead.
Remember, your students actions reflect your own. If they are ****e, generally you are too and probably won't make it in the charter industry.
Your job as a pilot is to work efficiently and safely for the business that you work for.
As a charter pilot, you learn to tread the line very quickly and how to deal with this pressure.
Many CP want the best for their pilots, it reflects their actions also.
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Too bad Kendells aren't around anymore.
They employed only the best pilots and most of them were instructors..... Just ask SOME of them!
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They employed only the best pilots and most of them were instructors..... Just ask SOME of them!
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I think it is just a case of instructor's wanting to move into the medium-upper level multi charter gigs without charter experience! Yes you have 500hrs multi in a BE76, but none are charter hours. Maybe spending some time on single engines doing charters, gaining that charter experience and "charter frame of mind" and then moving onto multis after?
Having limited experience in instructing and a bit more experience in charter operations, I think it would be safe to safe that two difference personalities are required to do both positions well. Not saying that a pilot can't do both! Just takes a certain breed to be able to adapt between both roles (not saying im that certain breed either)
Keep at it, something will come up
CMN
Having limited experience in instructing and a bit more experience in charter operations, I think it would be safe to safe that two difference personalities are required to do both positions well. Not saying that a pilot can't do both! Just takes a certain breed to be able to adapt between both roles (not saying im that certain breed either)
Keep at it, something will come up
CMN
I am just curious. What is a "charter frame of mind?" I see basically that a flying instructor deals with customers every day, their students. They need to get them to their destination (their licence) in the shortest period of time (cheapest) and at a time that suits them (when they can come in for training). Why do you need to do single engine charter to be able to do multiengine charter? What difference does it make if your multi hours a logged up by doing IFR teaching? When you are trying to get your required lesson plans synchronised with ATC requirements and other commercial pressures of the flying school. How is that different to charter pilots getting their pax from A to B when they want to? There seems to be so much "my d 
k is bigger than yours" syndrome between the two groups when quite simply there seems to be stuff all difference between the two!
k is bigger than yours" syndrome between the two groups when quite simply there seems to be stuff all difference between the two!
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I am just curious. What is a "charter frame of mind?" I see basically that a flying instructor deals with customers every day, their students. They need to get them to their destination (their licence) in the shortest period of time (cheapest) and at a time that suits them (when they can come in for training). Why do you need to do single engine charter to be able to do multiengine charter? What difference does it make if your multi hours a logged up by doing IFR teaching? When you are trying to get your required lesson plans synchronised with ATC requirements and other commercial pressures of the flying school. How is that different to charter pilots getting their pax from A to B when they want to? There seems to be so much "my d k is bigger than yours" syndrome between the two groups when quite simply there seems to be stuff all difference between the two!
k is bigger than yours" syndrome between the two groups when quite simply there seems to be stuff all difference between the two!My point was that some META IFR instructors want to go for the larger charter gigs, yet they seem to get declined most of the time. Due to "lack of charter experience", so if you cant get those jobs, why not start off at the bottom, or close to it, doing basic charter, gain that experience and then move on to larger charter gigs. If there was a position advertised for a job that needed 500hrs multi for a charter gig, then the pilot with 500hrs multi charter time will most likely get it as opposed to the IFR instructor with 1000hrs multi instructing. Plus the argument goes for instructors telling the boss where to stick it in "marginal" weather. I remember a time when I was doing my ME_CIR and we flew into a cloud and got very mild icing as a result of it, the instructor was crapping themselves, "Oh my god, we are icing up!" this resulting in a decent to LSALT, for most of the flight we were in and out of ST cloud and it was no more than SCT on the day, so it wouldn’t be long until we were out of it, didn’t really see a point in descending (in my opinion anyway)
And with being synchronised for ATC, im not too sure what that means? You decide to go flying, so you put in a flight plan (both charter, if CTR and instructing). Give ATC as much notice as possible and then you go flying, they are there to help you out?
This isn’t a stab at you almostthere, just elaborating on my previous post.
And as for my d*ick is bigger than yours, I guess im in the middle as I did both??? But I do see the difference in ego's and frames of mind from both sides of the coin. Instructors think they are king sh1t, flying those C152s and all! Charter pilots think they are kind sh1t too, flying those mighty C210s. At the end of the day an aeroplane is an aeroplane. Both C152 and C210 time gets logged in the same column (SE), both pilots will most likely have the same long term career goals: Airlines. Finally, both pilots are doing their bit for Australian aviation...making the boss money and working their arse off to keep food on the table and a roof over their head.
Keep up the good work boys and girls; there is light at the end of all tunnels (even if its a train for some of you!)
Gidday
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Quote" Why do you need to do single engine charter to be able to do multiengine charter? What difference does it make if your multi hours a logged up by doing IFR teaching? "end quote.
Either you do not know what the difference is or you do not think it is a justified attitude.
If it makes you happy to get all worked up over it great, but, irrespective of what you think, it is the opinion of just about every Charter/Low capacity RPT orgainisation, why do you think that is ?.
Best advice, deal with it, go do some single engine remote locality charter, and find out how much you didn't need to learn from that experience, or continue moaning about it on pprune.
I have done both, there is a very very big difference between the two worlds.
Either you do not know what the difference is or you do not think it is a justified attitude.
If it makes you happy to get all worked up over it great, but, irrespective of what you think, it is the opinion of just about every Charter/Low capacity RPT orgainisation, why do you think that is ?.
Best advice, deal with it, go do some single engine remote locality charter, and find out how much you didn't need to learn from that experience, or continue moaning about it on pprune.
I have done both, there is a very very big difference between the two worlds.
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What is a "charter frame of mind?"
That, my son, is the difference between charter frame of mind so beloved by charter chief pilots and the true blue professional airline pilot.
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That´s easy. It is the proven ability to cut corners, never write up defects, taxi like the clappers doing engine runs on the run, pretending that mag drop is NOT that bad, etc. But as soon as that charter pilot gets a job with a big airline like Virgin Blue and Qantas, he becomes a model citizen sticking strictly to flight time limitations, insisting on writing up a maintenance snag, taxiing ever so slowly so as not to upset the flight attendants and never going below the minima "to have a look."
That, my son, is the difference between charter frame of mind so beloved by charter chief pilots and the true blue professional airline pilot.
That, my son, is the difference between charter frame of mind so beloved by charter chief pilots and the true blue professional airline pilot.
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As ContactMeNow said - it has a lot to do with the right frame of mind.
It also has a lot to to with 'commercial pressure experience', not just aeronautical experience.
Admittedly, a lot of instructors land good charter jobs, but for those finding it hard, it could be advisable that just 6 months in a 206 and a good reference is enough to prove your ableness to cope with the new mind set.
Time is money is time is money.
I remember my first ever joy flight costing ME $50! Every 0.1 of a tacho hour costing in the order of around $45
Once you give a customer a quote, you generally adhere to it, whereas if a student's training flight blows out by an hour, they just pay for it.
(we all know instructors can fly!)
It also has a lot to to with 'commercial pressure experience', not just aeronautical experience.
Admittedly, a lot of instructors land good charter jobs, but for those finding it hard, it could be advisable that just 6 months in a 206 and a good reference is enough to prove your ableness to cope with the new mind set.
Time is money is time is money.
I remember my first ever joy flight costing ME $50! Every 0.1 of a tacho hour costing in the order of around $45
Once you give a customer a quote, you generally adhere to it, whereas if a student's training flight blows out by an hour, they just pay for it.(we all know instructors can fly!)
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wouldn't the real world command skill tell you not to go in an iced up twin with ****e instruments?
this "real world" attitude really annoys me. ask the families of any dead instructor if they think their relative was in the real world when they bought it.
this "real world" attitude really annoys me. ask the families of any dead instructor if they think their relative was in the real world when they bought it.
But to answer your question... the twin doesn't start out iced up, it gets that way during flight, and it is the management of that situation that is likely to be unknown territory for an instructor, but commonplace for the charter guy.
I can't think of many instructors that have died instructing, but if they have, they either suffered a structural failure or did something unwise. I can't think of any training manouever that is inherently dangerous, if you stick to the rules. There is absolutely no need to deviate from the rules, ever, when instructing.
Charter is a different situation, you can find yourself in a tight spot that is not of your own making, and it is how you deal with it that determines whether you survive the experience or not. You may well have to break a rule or two to get out of it, and it is that level of judgement that is rarely necessary for an instructor.
The world of an instructor is exceedingly simple. If the weather is crap, you stay on the ground. The "sensible" minima for instructing are way higher than those required for charter - in the charter world, if the weather is at or above legal minima at your destination and alternate, you would normally expect to depart (and your CP would certainly expect you to). What happens after departure is where the problems lie.
I did both charter and instructing before moving into the airlines, and I would have to say that charter is amongst the most dangerous and unforgiving paid flying that you can do, particularly if you are pressured - or pressure yourself - to break the rules. That pressure is virtually non-existent in instructing.
What is a "charter frame of mind"? Well, it has nothing to do with dicks. In instructing, your aim is to impart knowledge and skill. In charter, you aim is to exercise knowledge and skill. The two are quite different.
You probably only get HOW different they are, when you have done both. CPs know, hence their preference for guys with charter experience.
Quick story... back in the day, when I was doing charter, one of the other pilots got a job ferrying some trawler crews around. One of the crews had a (pretty rough) woman amongst them, so my colleague puts her up the front - I guess she smelled nicer than the others. She decided that he wasn't paying enough attention to her endless chatter, so she reached across, stuck her hand in his nether regions and started fondling his wedding tackle. This gave our guy a bit of a surprise - he ballooned about 500 feet before he got it all back together again (fortunately outside controlled airspace). He pleaded with her to stop, but she wasn't having any - she carried on with her "activities" for the entire flight. Of course, the aircraft had no autopilot so he had no choice but to let her continue, whilst completing an NDB/DME to minima.... "charter frame of mind", see? I wonder if any instructor ever had that happen to them...
True story, BTW.
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remoak...ditto on your comments and couldn,t agree more .....and until one has 'been there,and done that" the differences in these operations are truley unique,and become an individuals true test of their flying and managment capabilities.......
Another,would be to compare going from single pilot operations to 2 and 3 pilots cockpits,and the changes that take place in CRM.This for many is quite easy,some difficult and some just never get it(military pilots for me)... defined tasks and working as a crew....for those of us that do it on a daily basis will agree that when 2 pilots are working together and well....it makes for great flying
.....on the subject of the woman(and I,m still cracking up
bloody funny mate)....do you happen to know her telephone#????......kindest kapai,s
PB
Another,would be to compare going from single pilot operations to 2 and 3 pilots cockpits,and the changes that take place in CRM.This for many is quite easy,some difficult and some just never get it(military pilots for me)... defined tasks and working as a crew....for those of us that do it on a daily basis will agree that when 2 pilots are working together and well....it makes for great flying
.....on the subject of the woman(and I,m still cracking up
bloody funny mate)....do you happen to know her telephone#????......kindest kapai,sPB
Last edited by pakeha-boy; 23rd Nov 2006 at 23:34.
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What is a "charter frame of mind"? Well, it has nothing to do with dicks. In instructing, your aim is to impart knowledge and skill. In charter, you aim is to exercise knowledge and skill. The two are quite different.
The world of an instructor is exceedingly simple.
I can't think of many instructors that have died instructing, but if they have, they either suffered a structural failure or did something unwise.
I can't think of any training manouever that is inherently dangerous, if you stick to the rules.
i could go on, but i've gotta go get my CPL and all......
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....here we go!!! hang on,let me go get my helmet and gumboots......ITS GOING TO GET THICK AND DEEP!!!
WDN....mate,if in fact you dont have a CPL(as of yet)I take it then you have a ppl and if thats the case,for me,you are indeed uniquely qualified to make these comments......its like my 15yr old boy....if I ever need to know anything I go ask him as teenagers know everything......
not blowing smoke up remoaks tailpipe,but I think youll find his comments are professionally qualified....PB
WDN....mate,if in fact you dont have a CPL(as of yet)I take it then you have a ppl and if thats the case,for me,you are indeed uniquely qualified to make these comments......its like my 15yr old boy....if I ever need to know anything I go ask him as teenagers know everything......
not blowing smoke up remoaks tailpipe,but I think youll find his comments are professionally qualified....PB
Last edited by pakeha-boy; 24th Nov 2006 at 01:10.