Taupo=BAD
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Zealand
Age: 47
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My apologies for mis-spelling a few words earlier , was just trying to stick up for a few of us loan students.
I would welcome involvment of experience pilots within a aero club environment, it one thing i see lacking at my aero club, and as you say does seem to be blocked ( i have seen very experienced pilot turned away ) from getting on line as instructors.
seem to be a very limited loop of experience ie all the instuctors we students only a few years ago.
I get to chat with a number of airline pilots ( work part time in a hotel ) and I am really impressed with the encouragement and advice i get.
I would welcome involvment of experience pilots within a aero club environment, it one thing i see lacking at my aero club, and as you say does seem to be blocked ( i have seen very experienced pilot turned away ) from getting on line as instructors.
seem to be a very limited loop of experience ie all the instuctors we students only a few years ago.
I get to chat with a number of airline pilots ( work part time in a hotel ) and I am really impressed with the encouragement and advice i get.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Te Reti
Age: 48
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basically the simple facts are that Steve and his passengers would be alive if Taupo had radar and ATC. What pisses me off is all the claims and counter claims over cost benefits effectiveness etc. Saving lives and prevention of incidences and accidents are the reasons that we have the CAA. However its safety with a cost effective base very simliar to insurance companies. MOR with you 100% over the SA issues. CDG took me the best part of 2 years to even come close to being useful. Your average cadet pilot trained in the environment did much better than I.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Te Reti
Age: 48
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Waka Rider]Basically the simple facts are that Steve and his passengers would be alive if Taupo had radar and ATC. What pisses me off is all the claims and counter claims over cost benefits effectiveness etc. Saving lives and prevention of incidences and accidents are the reasons that we have the CAA. However its safety with a cost effective base very simliar to insurance companies. MOR with you 100% over the SA issues. CDG took me the best part of 2 years to even come close to being useful. Your average cadet pilot trained in the environment did much better than I. These cadet pilots do have very good training courses with big prices but they do very well online
Poor form MOR.
I too appreciate a thoughtfully constructed, well drafted post. But to pass off an attempted slight as some meaningful observation of a person's piloting attributes is pathetic and serves you no credit.
Truely, if that is the depth of analysis involved in developing your 'anti-generation next' arguements, then irony is indeed lost.
I too appreciate a thoughtfully constructed, well drafted post. But to pass off an attempted slight as some meaningful observation of a person's piloting attributes is pathetic and serves you no credit.
Truely, if that is the depth of analysis involved in developing your 'anti-generation next' arguements, then irony is indeed lost.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you can't see the correlation, nike, I'm afraid the problem is yours, not mine.
There are some aspects to this that you don't know about.
I have no axe to grind with "generation next", where did you get that idea?
There are some aspects to this that you don't know about.
I have no axe to grind with "generation next", where did you get that idea?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NZ
Posts: 835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nike, I think MOR raises a valid point. Most of us make the odd spelling mistake, but I would expect a professional pilot to be able to construct a cohesive sentence.
i rkn its caus of 2 mch txtng ay m8
i rkn its caus of 2 mch txtng ay m8
My apologies oktas8, but I am not a big fan of PM's due to the fact that they effectively go against the grain of a public forum and the intent to share ideas.
My point is against what MOR wrote regarding CougarNZ in post #41 (not #34) and is therefore obviously off topic within this thread. For that I apologise.
I also apologise for the bemused tone in this post, but MOR, you cannot be serious?
Surely this whole 'thing' we call a forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints.
"...the problem is mine..."? really does nothing to help me understand your point. If you truely wish to garner respect please try harder to share your ideas. Indeed is that not what you are asking of CougarNZ?
Why my disdain at your post?
Simply, I cannot bring myself to question CougarNZ's situational awareness based on a post on PPRuNe. Which is what you put forward as your rebuttal to Cougar defending what he saw as a personal attack.
I've never meet the guy, and will not agree to condemn his piloting skills simply based on a post. One, which if you look at the overall tone of that particular post is not too bad.
Within those few posts this guy has tripped, stumbled, stood up & apologised, tried to appease those who seek to condemn him, and has been shot down at every turn.
Truely a disappointing example of what sort of encouragement is out there for young pilots.
MOR, I mistakenly credited you with comments made by Prospector regarding the apparent drift in english language skills across the generations. However I am not entirely convinced of your contention of zero comtempt for those younger than you.
Now, I have come a long way myself, making plenty of errors and still have many lessons ahead. What I would hope for is a guiding hand and a positive mentor, not cutting remarks filled with ridicule for those in need.
If indeed it is the intent of this debate to raise the standards wihtin these forums, then lets not limit it to spelling or grammar or to the new guys.
My point is against what MOR wrote regarding CougarNZ in post #41 (not #34) and is therefore obviously off topic within this thread. For that I apologise.
I also apologise for the bemused tone in this post, but MOR, you cannot be serious?
Surely this whole 'thing' we call a forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints.
"...the problem is mine..."? really does nothing to help me understand your point. If you truely wish to garner respect please try harder to share your ideas. Indeed is that not what you are asking of CougarNZ?
Why my disdain at your post?
Simply, I cannot bring myself to question CougarNZ's situational awareness based on a post on PPRuNe. Which is what you put forward as your rebuttal to Cougar defending what he saw as a personal attack.
I've never meet the guy, and will not agree to condemn his piloting skills simply based on a post. One, which if you look at the overall tone of that particular post is not too bad.
Within those few posts this guy has tripped, stumbled, stood up & apologised, tried to appease those who seek to condemn him, and has been shot down at every turn.
Truely a disappointing example of what sort of encouragement is out there for young pilots.
MOR, I mistakenly credited you with comments made by Prospector regarding the apparent drift in english language skills across the generations. However I am not entirely convinced of your contention of zero comtempt for those younger than you.
Now, I have come a long way myself, making plenty of errors and still have many lessons ahead. What I would hope for is a guiding hand and a positive mentor, not cutting remarks filled with ridicule for those in need.
If indeed it is the intent of this debate to raise the standards wihtin these forums, then lets not limit it to spelling or grammar or to the new guys.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nike
The first thing you need to know is that CougarNZ and I know each other personally.
The second thing you need to know is that there is a direct correlation between one skill (the ability to write a coherent sentence), and another (situational awareness). Both require comprehension to be effective. The sentence I was alluding to in CougarNZ's post was this -
Can you explain what that means?
(Sorry to drag you back into this CougarNZ, but the question needs to be answered. looking forward to our next beer).
Yes, this forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints, which is all I was doing if you read my posts carefully.
As far as having less than zero contempt for those younger than me, you are way off the mark. Until two years ago, I was running simulator courses for wannabe airline pilots, and not looking for payment for it. I still actively encourage young pilots, as CougarNZ will confirm if you ask him. I would like nothing more than to get back into instructing - not for the money, just for the satisfaction. I have had a long and satisfying airline career, and right now I just want to put something back into aviation for those who are just starting out. Unfortunately, the aero clubs seem to be full of people just wanting to protect their little empires, so I have been unable to do so - but I'm still trying.
Perhaps, instead of venting your anger on me, you could focus your attention on those who prevent people like me from helping people who are just starting out.
I'm always more than happy to help out anyone wanting advice, as many people on this forum know who have spoken to me.
Now, back to Taupo...
The first thing you need to know is that CougarNZ and I know each other personally.
The second thing you need to know is that there is a direct correlation between one skill (the ability to write a coherent sentence), and another (situational awareness). Both require comprehension to be effective. The sentence I was alluding to in CougarNZ's post was this -
I will agree that some of the people joining the aviation circle by this means have no interest pass flying off there course fees in aviation.
(Sorry to drag you back into this CougarNZ, but the question needs to be answered. looking forward to our next beer).
Yes, this forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints, which is all I was doing if you read my posts carefully.
As far as having less than zero contempt for those younger than me, you are way off the mark. Until two years ago, I was running simulator courses for wannabe airline pilots, and not looking for payment for it. I still actively encourage young pilots, as CougarNZ will confirm if you ask him. I would like nothing more than to get back into instructing - not for the money, just for the satisfaction. I have had a long and satisfying airline career, and right now I just want to put something back into aviation for those who are just starting out. Unfortunately, the aero clubs seem to be full of people just wanting to protect their little empires, so I have been unable to do so - but I'm still trying.
Perhaps, instead of venting your anger on me, you could focus your attention on those who prevent people like me from helping people who are just starting out.
I'm always more than happy to help out anyone wanting advice, as many people on this forum know who have spoken to me.
Now, back to Taupo...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it has a lake and mountains in the background, oh and an airport that we were discussing..........
Lets get back on topic!
Waka rider, Your statement is very true however Taupo isnt unsafe because it has only an NDB to make approaches with. Plenty of aircraft use that approach and dont hit Tauhara, its the amount and various specialist types of operations that are conducted in and very close to the MBZ and approaches to AP that warrant ATC. If Taupo had an ILS, or someone monitoring your progress on radar, yes it would be safer to approach from the north but thats not the main issue here, its the aircraft and meatbombers that get in your way that cause the issue!
Dont get me wrong though, your comment is valid fuel for the argument!
Lets get back on topic!
Waka rider, Your statement is very true however Taupo isnt unsafe because it has only an NDB to make approaches with. Plenty of aircraft use that approach and dont hit Tauhara, its the amount and various specialist types of operations that are conducted in and very close to the MBZ and approaches to AP that warrant ATC. If Taupo had an ILS, or someone monitoring your progress on radar, yes it would be safer to approach from the north but thats not the main issue here, its the aircraft and meatbombers that get in your way that cause the issue!
Dont get me wrong though, your comment is valid fuel for the argument!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Zealand
Age: 47
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As i pretty fresh pilot 186.7 hours of total time in the past 13 months of my flying ( total flying experience).
Firstly i must aplogise yet again for pulling this thread off topic.
My first post here was to defend those of us that take the student loan road into our aviation careers.
but i did concede that there are people taking the cousres because of the loans , some people starting with not even putting a feew hundreds dollars up front for trial flights and lesson before signinf up to the course, some will be lucky to get to point to Pass there CPL ( note i have yet to do the flight test) and have no direction pass flying off the money in the course fees. But there are also guys who work hard to ensure we are learning the right things and have some future using the large investment we have made in ourselves.
I noted earlier in a post my recommendation for people to read a couple of books written by Tony Kern ( a USAF instructor ) just search on amazon for "Flight Discipline" and Redefining Airmanship" , ,book i had recommended to be by a Air NZ Pilot. both of these books are very good for putting questions to each of us as to how we think and behave as pilots. I have pick up some good SA advice in the books.
MOR approached the aero club where i am training , but the old boys network seemed to block out a fresh face with some great skills , much to the dissapointment of many of us students. surely the more social interaction and professional interaction the better we can become as pilots.
starts to make us students look closer at if our "aero club and training provider", are they just interested in the revenue provided by us , or are they making a genuine effort to ensure we become good pilots, ie that they teach us more than just how to pass the flight tests and exams. instill some good airmanship practices in our learning.
Our Instructors make a effort but organisational cuture ( atitudes from club excutive) around us makes us a little nervous
We all look around us for role models.
something i made light of a CAA safety talk at our aero club , I look up to students on my course with 50 more hrs to be ( as they have more experience ) and to other pilots in the aero club. It's up to all pilot to look out for each other and even question each other's atitude at times. the very experienced pilot with a bad atitude ( mindset ) is just dangerous as pilot with less experience flying in conditions beyond there skill level.
right back on topic , I flewn into AP on the day all this was in the media. I believe i had a good SA of things going on in th MBZ as i flew up from the south. but i still took a wide downwind track and ended extending due to a skydive plane on a non standard base leg descending thru 5000ft . as i couldn't get a visual on the other aircraft and it wasn't comforming to standard circuit procedures. I am sure the other pilot was aware of my position in circuit. we most likely we not conflicting each other , but was easy enough to hang out wide and state my intentions clearly on radio to ensure safety all round.
I would think that ATC at AP would become necessary in the furture with aircraft numbers in the area. Surely Safety has to be ensured on a better model than be a cost-benefit model. Maybe CAA needs to be more pro-active in enforcing safety standards for the safety of both the public and for Us ( the Pilots )
Firstly i must aplogise yet again for pulling this thread off topic.
My first post here was to defend those of us that take the student loan road into our aviation careers.
but i did concede that there are people taking the cousres because of the loans , some people starting with not even putting a feew hundreds dollars up front for trial flights and lesson before signinf up to the course, some will be lucky to get to point to Pass there CPL ( note i have yet to do the flight test) and have no direction pass flying off the money in the course fees. But there are also guys who work hard to ensure we are learning the right things and have some future using the large investment we have made in ourselves.
I noted earlier in a post my recommendation for people to read a couple of books written by Tony Kern ( a USAF instructor ) just search on amazon for "Flight Discipline" and Redefining Airmanship" , ,book i had recommended to be by a Air NZ Pilot. both of these books are very good for putting questions to each of us as to how we think and behave as pilots. I have pick up some good SA advice in the books.
MOR approached the aero club where i am training , but the old boys network seemed to block out a fresh face with some great skills , much to the dissapointment of many of us students. surely the more social interaction and professional interaction the better we can become as pilots.
starts to make us students look closer at if our "aero club and training provider", are they just interested in the revenue provided by us , or are they making a genuine effort to ensure we become good pilots, ie that they teach us more than just how to pass the flight tests and exams. instill some good airmanship practices in our learning.
Our Instructors make a effort but organisational cuture ( atitudes from club excutive) around us makes us a little nervous
We all look around us for role models.
something i made light of a CAA safety talk at our aero club , I look up to students on my course with 50 more hrs to be ( as they have more experience ) and to other pilots in the aero club. It's up to all pilot to look out for each other and even question each other's atitude at times. the very experienced pilot with a bad atitude ( mindset ) is just dangerous as pilot with less experience flying in conditions beyond there skill level.
right back on topic , I flewn into AP on the day all this was in the media. I believe i had a good SA of things going on in th MBZ as i flew up from the south. but i still took a wide downwind track and ended extending due to a skydive plane on a non standard base leg descending thru 5000ft . as i couldn't get a visual on the other aircraft and it wasn't comforming to standard circuit procedures. I am sure the other pilot was aware of my position in circuit. we most likely we not conflicting each other , but was easy enough to hang out wide and state my intentions clearly on radio to ensure safety all round.
I would think that ATC at AP would become necessary in the furture with aircraft numbers in the area. Surely Safety has to be ensured on a better model than be a cost-benefit model. Maybe CAA needs to be more pro-active in enforcing safety standards for the safety of both the public and for Us ( the Pilots )
Last edited by CougarNZ; 19th Jun 2006 at 06:07.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NZ
Posts: 835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cougar
There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a student load to pay for your flight training - you don't need to defend yourself. In fact, now that it's interest free, you could argue that it is stupid not to. The idea is to get yourself qualified and into the aviation work force as soon as possible so you can acheive the highest earnings possible in the future. If you take 5 years to get through your training because you are working full time trying to pay for it, you would be selling yourself short in the future. Many people will simply not reach the top levels in our small aviation market because they started too late (not saying there's anything wrong with that, many people are happy with the lifestyle flying for a regional).
It's good that you are concerned about exercising good airmanship, and doing plenty of reading on the subject. It's also good to see you recognise the value of others' experience. Much of the learning I did as a student was over a few beers with the old grays at the aeroclub bar.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a student load to pay for your flight training - you don't need to defend yourself. In fact, now that it's interest free, you could argue that it is stupid not to. The idea is to get yourself qualified and into the aviation work force as soon as possible so you can acheive the highest earnings possible in the future. If you take 5 years to get through your training because you are working full time trying to pay for it, you would be selling yourself short in the future. Many people will simply not reach the top levels in our small aviation market because they started too late (not saying there's anything wrong with that, many people are happy with the lifestyle flying for a regional).
It's good that you are concerned about exercising good airmanship, and doing plenty of reading on the subject. It's also good to see you recognise the value of others' experience. Much of the learning I did as a student was over a few beers with the old grays at the aeroclub bar.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Efficiency
One of the difficulties I have with ATC in Class D airspace, is that safety and efficiency seem to become mutually exclusive. (Except NP - they're very efficient.)
CougarNZ extended downwind because a skydiving aircraft was on a non-standard base from 5000' (and fair enough too if traffic not sighted). Now if I know the skydive operator, he was probably flying such a tight circuit that CougarNZ could have flown a standard circuit and landed normally without there being any conflict. ATC would have encouraged this to happen one might think.
In fact, with ATC on watch, the skydive aircraft would probably have been micro-managed around a non-standard circuit while CougarNZ was ordered to hold on downwind, other aircraft doing scenics etc over the lake would have had difficulty getting a clearance due to the busy-ness of the radio, and then finally CougarNZ would have been told he was Number 2 to the airliner on 10nm final. There would have been no "follow that aircraft", instead "extend downwind until advised" followed much later by "the aircraft has landed now, so turn base".
Farfetched and extreme? I see it every day I fly in my local circuit!
Now I'm not trying to start an ATC bashing thread - I think their behaviour is driven by Wellington as much as anything - but although Taupo's safety would be benefit from ATC, productivity would go through the floor, which might be why the suggestion is being vigorously opposed.
CougarNZ extended downwind because a skydiving aircraft was on a non-standard base from 5000' (and fair enough too if traffic not sighted). Now if I know the skydive operator, he was probably flying such a tight circuit that CougarNZ could have flown a standard circuit and landed normally without there being any conflict. ATC would have encouraged this to happen one might think.
In fact, with ATC on watch, the skydive aircraft would probably have been micro-managed around a non-standard circuit while CougarNZ was ordered to hold on downwind, other aircraft doing scenics etc over the lake would have had difficulty getting a clearance due to the busy-ness of the radio, and then finally CougarNZ would have been told he was Number 2 to the airliner on 10nm final. There would have been no "follow that aircraft", instead "extend downwind until advised" followed much later by "the aircraft has landed now, so turn base".
Farfetched and extreme? I see it every day I fly in my local circuit!
Now I'm not trying to start an ATC bashing thread - I think their behaviour is driven by Wellington as much as anything - but although Taupo's safety would be benefit from ATC, productivity would go through the floor, which might be why the suggestion is being vigorously opposed.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does
Quote:
having less than zero contempt
actually mean?
Quote:
having less than zero contempt
actually mean?
You introduced the concept of a "contention of zero contempt for those younger than me" in your earlier post.
I took your syllogistic form, and inverted it, creating a positive from your inferred negative suppositionary allusion.
Having done that, I concluded the conversion to metaphor by implying a double negative rendering of the original form, thus creating an implied positive that is contextually linked to the original statement. Thus, by the dual processes of implication and obfuscation, I arrived at the phrase in question.
Can't say clearer than that, can I?
In other words, I think young pilots are way cool, but their music sucks and they have no respect for their elders. And as for their choice in women... damn I wish I was younger!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: EXPECT DIVERSIONS
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cool so...
Taupo = bad because there is no ATC. issues like pilot training and situational awareness are the preserve of part 61 and should be adressed in that context.
ATC costs money and tramples on certain peoples toes.
If one looks at the situation as a balanced equation where on the one hand you have a finite amount of money and on the other, a mixture of activities, what activities do you think should be removed to make taupo a safer airport? humour me i am new.
as an example, one could say PJE should be allowed to dispatch but have to land off-site. this would at least free-up the overhead. If PJE operators are upset about the increased cost, they should look around and see how many other PJ airfields there are around to compete against. I dont know but i am sure there are plenty of examples overseas where this happens.
So there you go. Considering that ATC is not going to occur at taupo in the short to medium term, what would you remove/alter to make it safer?
ATC costs money and tramples on certain peoples toes.
If one looks at the situation as a balanced equation where on the one hand you have a finite amount of money and on the other, a mixture of activities, what activities do you think should be removed to make taupo a safer airport? humour me i am new.
as an example, one could say PJE should be allowed to dispatch but have to land off-site. this would at least free-up the overhead. If PJE operators are upset about the increased cost, they should look around and see how many other PJ airfields there are around to compete against. I dont know but i am sure there are plenty of examples overseas where this happens.
So there you go. Considering that ATC is not going to occur at taupo in the short to medium term, what would you remove/alter to make it safer?
