Taupo=BAD
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Actually, Locodriver makes a good point. Far too many pilots now have little or no understanding of situational awareness, and yet it is the one thing that will save your butt in the airline world.
Having spent most of my flying career in and out of major airports like Paris CDG, Heathrow, Brussels and Amsterdam, I can tell you that one thing you really need is an acute sense of situational awareness, especially at Paris where the controllers speak french to all the Air France guys, and english to the rest of us. I have had to file several MORs for airproxes whilst flying around Paris, believe me, IFR separation and radar control won't always keep you safe! You need to know where everybody is.
I still feel very naked whenever I operate VFR around NZ, it just makes me very aware of the need to have a good mental picture of the airspace around me.
As far as wrapping anybody in cotton wool, maybe not for neophyte pilots operating out of AR, but at AP it is a different story. There, you have scheduled movements, and those pax want and expect to be wrapped in the deepest possible cotton wool (and so they should be).
Somebody earlier mentioned that there was tower at AP, and what was it there for. Well, it was built a few years ago now, back in the days when the government realised that they had an obligation to provide the tools to make air travel as safe as possible. In the same way that they provide traffic lights and speed cameras, they used to provide an ATC service at all the regional airports. I well remember lounging by the Grumman at Hokitika back in the '80s, about an hour before the single scheduled movement for the day. Suddenly, a fleet of cars arrived, and within ten minutes, the tower and met office were manned, the cafe was in action and the ground handlers had their gear out. Ten minutes after the flight departed, the place was completely empty again!
Now Hokitika doesn't really need that level of activity these days, but Taupo certainly does - that tower should be in use. of course, it is unlikely to happen, as the Swedavia Report ensured that from then on, the deciding factor should be cost and not safety.
I certainly agree with others that is only a matter of time at AP before a serious accident happens. I also believe that if AP had even a FIS, Steve Brown and his pax probably wouldn't have died on Mt Tauhara last year.
Having spent most of my flying career in and out of major airports like Paris CDG, Heathrow, Brussels and Amsterdam, I can tell you that one thing you really need is an acute sense of situational awareness, especially at Paris where the controllers speak french to all the Air France guys, and english to the rest of us. I have had to file several MORs for airproxes whilst flying around Paris, believe me, IFR separation and radar control won't always keep you safe! You need to know where everybody is.
I still feel very naked whenever I operate VFR around NZ, it just makes me very aware of the need to have a good mental picture of the airspace around me.
As far as wrapping anybody in cotton wool, maybe not for neophyte pilots operating out of AR, but at AP it is a different story. There, you have scheduled movements, and those pax want and expect to be wrapped in the deepest possible cotton wool (and so they should be).
Somebody earlier mentioned that there was tower at AP, and what was it there for. Well, it was built a few years ago now, back in the days when the government realised that they had an obligation to provide the tools to make air travel as safe as possible. In the same way that they provide traffic lights and speed cameras, they used to provide an ATC service at all the regional airports. I well remember lounging by the Grumman at Hokitika back in the '80s, about an hour before the single scheduled movement for the day. Suddenly, a fleet of cars arrived, and within ten minutes, the tower and met office were manned, the cafe was in action and the ground handlers had their gear out. Ten minutes after the flight departed, the place was completely empty again!
Now Hokitika doesn't really need that level of activity these days, but Taupo certainly does - that tower should be in use. of course, it is unlikely to happen, as the Swedavia Report ensured that from then on, the deciding factor should be cost and not safety.
I certainly agree with others that is only a matter of time at AP before a serious accident happens. I also believe that if AP had even a FIS, Steve Brown and his pax probably wouldn't have died on Mt Tauhara last year.
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Loco,
The point I am trying to make is why not wrap Taupo in cotton wool? It only has to be a 10 mile zone, and it will give some good protection.
Rotorua has ATC yet it has less movements. Why is that? If peoples arguments here stand strong then we should do away with ATC there as well. 737's etc have TCAS, surely thats enough
Taupo may be working ok now but its a town growing at a huge rate. When a town grows, so does the infrastructure, roads, shops and Airport. You cant blame the students who arent taught proper S.A. but you can protect people against those without proper SA.
The Taupo operators are probably scared that they wont be able to operate in the same way they do now. If they all got together to work out a plan then it could be to their advantage. One way or another Taupo will get ATC at some point and if they do nothing but fight it, they wont get many concessions when it is implemented.
Dont forget people, there is a witchhunt and public stoning for the CAA now. Rightly or wrongly, that is not the issue here, The CAA is going to make changes that make it look good. IMHO, Taupo ATC is going to be one of those plans!
OSOP
The point I am trying to make is why not wrap Taupo in cotton wool? It only has to be a 10 mile zone, and it will give some good protection.
Rotorua has ATC yet it has less movements. Why is that? If peoples arguments here stand strong then we should do away with ATC there as well. 737's etc have TCAS, surely thats enough
Taupo may be working ok now but its a town growing at a huge rate. When a town grows, so does the infrastructure, roads, shops and Airport. You cant blame the students who arent taught proper S.A. but you can protect people against those without proper SA.
The Taupo operators are probably scared that they wont be able to operate in the same way they do now. If they all got together to work out a plan then it could be to their advantage. One way or another Taupo will get ATC at some point and if they do nothing but fight it, they wont get many concessions when it is implemented.
Dont forget people, there is a witchhunt and public stoning for the CAA now. Rightly or wrongly, that is not the issue here, The CAA is going to make changes that make it look good. IMHO, Taupo ATC is going to be one of those plans!
OSOP
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Ahhhhhhhhhh
I thought my post my provoke some thoughts........... political animal
that I am!
My comments re cottonwool and Situational awareness, comes from many years in GA.
As a mere bugsmasher instructor, I have checked quite a few airline pilots returning to GA, and quite frankly, I find they are somewhat lacking in situational awareness, sometimes disturbingly so.
I dont say this this lightly, or trying to be clever, it is pure fact.Having said that, i know several 737/767/747 jocks who have no such problem, because they are involved in GA, and have been all their lives.-some of these are instructors too!, and happen to agree with me 100%.
Taupo years ago had a flight service, (as did Whakatane, Oamaru, Whangarei, Katiaia etc etc) and yes, one day it will need a tower, the way Taupo is growing. (as did Queenstown)
I have no qualms in a PPL or well breifed student going to Taupo, but an
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!
The Air NZ link pilots going into Taupo, are familar and experienced, and dont seem to have any problems.
Hey MOR, maybe your 'PING' Button may be handy for Taupo!
Operating at Taupo is different from doing a 10 mile ILS approach under Radar control, there is no comparison, and this needs to be remembered.
Cheers!
I thought my post my provoke some thoughts........... political animal
that I am!
My comments re cottonwool and Situational awareness, comes from many years in GA.
As a mere bugsmasher instructor, I have checked quite a few airline pilots returning to GA, and quite frankly, I find they are somewhat lacking in situational awareness, sometimes disturbingly so.
I dont say this this lightly, or trying to be clever, it is pure fact.Having said that, i know several 737/767/747 jocks who have no such problem, because they are involved in GA, and have been all their lives.-some of these are instructors too!, and happen to agree with me 100%.
Taupo years ago had a flight service, (as did Whakatane, Oamaru, Whangarei, Katiaia etc etc) and yes, one day it will need a tower, the way Taupo is growing. (as did Queenstown)
I have no qualms in a PPL or well breifed student going to Taupo, but an
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!
The Air NZ link pilots going into Taupo, are familar and experienced, and dont seem to have any problems.
Hey MOR, maybe your 'PING' Button may be handy for Taupo!
Operating at Taupo is different from doing a 10 mile ILS approach under Radar control, there is no comparison, and this needs to be remembered.
Cheers!
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Having operated in and out of Taupo, IFR & last summer (after being away for 5 years VFR, my opinion of the place has gone south in a rather large fashion.
Every airfield falls into that catagory Loco.... I don't see why you need to make the distinction.
The problems are compounded in a place like AP for a number of rather well understood reasons (well understood in most parts of the civilized world that is)
1. A varied mix of traffic types, rotary, fixed wing GA & ATO
2. A mix of operating profiles e.g. Low level, procedural, and Skydiving
3. The proximity of terrain
4. Sheer volume of movement..which is increasing every year
Any one of these combinations is justification for an ATC service of some description IMHO, throw in a Biz jet or two, and you start to wonder why the bloody hell the CAA exists at all.
This is a no brainer..when will the mahogany bomber drivers ever learn?
I have no qualms in a PPL or well briefed student going to Taupo, but an
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!
I don't see why you need to make the distinction.The problems are compounded in a place like AP for a number of rather well understood reasons (well understood in most parts of the civilized world that is)
1. A varied mix of traffic types, rotary, fixed wing GA & ATO
2. A mix of operating profiles e.g. Low level, procedural, and Skydiving
3. The proximity of terrain
4. Sheer volume of movement..which is increasing every year
Any one of these combinations is justification for an ATC service of some description IMHO, throw in a Biz jet or two, and you start to wonder why the bloody hell the CAA exists at all.
This is a no brainer..when will the mahogany bomber drivers ever learn?
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I stand by what I said, situational awareness is important (at any airfield)
what I am saying is that at places like Taupo, the pilot needs to be right on the ball.
With an airline, the pilot would be 'checked' for Taupo, what about the intinerant biz-jet?????- or PPL for that matter.
I am very concerned with the lack of situational awareness(airmanship when I learned to fly) displayed by some pilots, right through the country.
Anyway, pilots I authorise to go to taupo, have at least been very well briefed,thats my contribution to safety.
I agree, ATC should have happened years ago(I know, I contradicted myself)
but it dosent, so we have to use the tools we have.
As for dear old CAA, someone has to harass pilots!
Goin' loco'
what I am saying is that at places like Taupo, the pilot needs to be right on the ball.
With an airline, the pilot would be 'checked' for Taupo, what about the intinerant biz-jet?????- or PPL for that matter.
I am very concerned with the lack of situational awareness(airmanship when I learned to fly) displayed by some pilots, right through the country.
Anyway, pilots I authorise to go to taupo, have at least been very well briefed,thats my contribution to safety.
I agree, ATC should have happened years ago(I know, I contradicted myself)
but it dosent, so we have to use the tools we have.
As for dear old CAA, someone has to harass pilots!
Goin' loco'
Thanks Loco.
I kinda get what you're saying, however I doubt that having ATC or not at Taupo would be the cracker to run that campaign on.
There are still plenty of unattented airfields out there to provide opportunities for you to show the need for "...eyes outside my friend...".
I would prefer to have ATC in this situation, not because am I seeking to be "wrapped in cotton wool", rather, among other things, to help me look in the right direction.
Operating to an airfield for the first time or at least for some time, it's not so much that we're not looking outside, but that we're looking for the wrong picture, focusing at the wrong distance, scanning in the wrong directions.
Taupo carries a greater risk is (my opinion) due to the volume and varied nature of the traffic ('traffic' includes parachutes).
The situation requires us to manage this traffic (obviously). First step- identifying said traffic in order to create a resolution to avoid any potential conflict. ATC would be there to help us with this first step (only needs to be CTR/D).
It would be good to get opinion from those operating at Taupo now.
The rest of us are merely outside looking in.
I kinda get what you're saying, however I doubt that having ATC or not at Taupo would be the cracker to run that campaign on.
There are still plenty of unattented airfields out there to provide opportunities for you to show the need for "...eyes outside my friend...".
I would prefer to have ATC in this situation, not because am I seeking to be "wrapped in cotton wool", rather, among other things, to help me look in the right direction.
Operating to an airfield for the first time or at least for some time, it's not so much that we're not looking outside, but that we're looking for the wrong picture, focusing at the wrong distance, scanning in the wrong directions.
Taupo carries a greater risk is (my opinion) due to the volume and varied nature of the traffic ('traffic' includes parachutes).
The situation requires us to manage this traffic (obviously). First step- identifying said traffic in order to create a resolution to avoid any potential conflict. ATC would be there to help us with this first step (only needs to be CTR/D).
It would be good to get opinion from those operating at Taupo now.
The rest of us are merely outside looking in.
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I am very concerned with the lack of situational awareness(airman ship when I learned to fly) displayed by some pilots, right through the country
Personally however I dont honestly think the aviators currently plugging around in GA are any better or worse than when I did my first solo circuit at Thames 14 years ago (gawd is it that long ago?
)The real issue with SA or lack of, relates in no small way IMHO to an increasing skills/experience gap that currently exists in the NZ training sphere.
The CAA in their infinite wisdom (aka ostrich fashion) have performed woefully over the past decade and presided over standards that are nothing short of professional negligence. This problem exists from top to bottom in GA, I don't accept the assertion that a few "rogue" operators are to blame..it is quite simply endemic.
NZ is a fairly unique (but by no means anymore challenging than anywhere else) environment, and it continues to suffer from chronic under-investment into the aviation infrastructure (Endangering GA, and ATO operators alike)..which again can be laid Farly and squarely at the supposedly independent, safety minded, CAA
The time for a clean out is nigh, the time for a culture change in GA is 10 years late, and its time the CAA starts doing the job you guys pay all your user fees for.
Last edited by haughtney1; 9th Jun 2006 at 12:10. Reason: spelling..oh dear
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Loco, The situational awareness of NZ GA pilots is some of the best in the world. Probably something to do with the "can do" attitude that Kiwis hold. In the UK, the situational awareness of the recreational pilot is absolutely shocking. I have experienced first hand examples of it from a wide range of different areas of GA and I would much rather fly into Taupo than in many areas of the UK. That however is not the point, Taupo is unique.
Taupo is not a difficult place to fly into when you have experience, its easy to navigate to and with the surrounding land features, anyone who can lose situational awareness flying in there needs a kick up the a£$e, especially if they are "airline types". A proper self brief on the place (of the type taught to you by your instructor during CPL training ) should be all thats required of any new airport you intend to fly to!
The issue here though is the highly unique way in which Taupo airport is run and the cross section of activities that go on there. Central co-ordination of activities is a highly sensible way to miniminse the risk but there are some big balled people out there who think they know best.
What they fail to realise though is its not their fellow operators that are going to kill them, it is the GA pilot who goes into a piece of airspace they are unfamiliar with and ends up out of his/her depth!
Always remember! You cant avoid what you havent seen or heard!
Taupo is not a difficult place to fly into when you have experience, its easy to navigate to and with the surrounding land features, anyone who can lose situational awareness flying in there needs a kick up the a£$e, especially if they are "airline types". A proper self brief on the place (of the type taught to you by your instructor during CPL training
) should be all thats required of any new airport you intend to fly to! The issue here though is the highly unique way in which Taupo airport is run and the cross section of activities that go on there. Central co-ordination of activities is a highly sensible way to miniminse the risk but there are some big balled people out there who think they know best.
What they fail to realise though is its not their fellow operators that are going to kill them, it is the GA pilot who goes into a piece of airspace they are unfamiliar with and ends up out of his/her depth!
Always remember! You cant avoid what you havent seen or heard!
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I find it a bit hard to agree with that. My experience of flying in the UK over the last 20 years is that it the airspace, from a GA point of view, is inordinately complex compared to NZ. Nothing in NZ compares to places like Fairoaks, right under the Heathrow CTZ. A very busy GA airport, and if you want to get from Fairoaks to, say, Barton, you have some fairly complex airspace to navigate, not to mention the different QNH setting requirements etc. As an observation, I spent quite a lot of my time in the UK training up NZ and Aussie pilots into UK airline positions, and almost without exception they had trouble with SA at busy airports. Nothing in NZ prepares you for a serious international airport.
I also disagree with this:
The whole point of flight safety is that an average GA pilot should NEVER be out of their depth in unfamiliar airspace, because the level of standardisation and control should preclude it. It may be worth mentioning that the afore-mentioned Fairoaks in the UK, a single runway of some 813m, has a full AFIS from 0800-1800 every day. The other airfield I mentioned, Barton, has a longest runway of 621m and, guess what, also has a full-time AFIS on the field. We are so laughably out of step with the rest of the first world that it beggars belief.
The good old Kiwi "can do" attitude is fine, but when applied to aviation, quickly becomes dangerous. That is one of the reasons we have had so many recent accidents where pilots flew perfectly good aircraft into terrain.
The problem with AP is that nothing is likely to happen to enhance safety there, partly because the CAA don't believe that safety is their responsibility, and partly because the local operators are unwilling to submit to any further control on their operations (probably for financial reasons).
It is only a matter of time.
I also disagree with this:
What they fail to realise though is its not their fellow operators that are going to kill them, it is the GA pilot who goes into a piece of airspace they are unfamiliar with and ends up out of his/her depth!
The good old Kiwi "can do" attitude is fine, but when applied to aviation, quickly becomes dangerous. That is one of the reasons we have had so many recent accidents where pilots flew perfectly good aircraft into terrain.
The problem with AP is that nothing is likely to happen to enhance safety there, partly because the CAA don't believe that safety is their responsibility, and partly because the local operators are unwilling to submit to any further control on their operations (probably for financial reasons).
It is only a matter of time.
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The situational awareness of NZ GA pilots is some of the best in the world. Probably something to do with the "can do" attitude that Kiwis hold. In the UK, the situational awareness of the recreational pilot is absolutely shocking.
NZ pilots in my experience have a long way to go so far as SA is concerned, "can do" be damned, if you have to resort to an attitude of "I can do this"...
just to get in and out of a place then you have no business being there in the first place.The clock continues to tick...the toll continues to rise.
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MOR & Haughtney,
You points are both well taken and you are right when you say its only a matter of time. There will be another incident at Taupo, it will be in the near future and there is only one thing that can avoid it. Lets just hope the CAA take that option. The question that begs to be answered is this.... What is the big deal with having ATC? It is not any more restrictive and in most cases enhances saftey and efficiency as has been well proven in the UK.
OSOP
You points are both well taken and you are right when you say its only a matter of time. There will be another incident at Taupo, it will be in the near future and there is only one thing that can avoid it. Lets just hope the CAA take that option. The question that begs to be answered is this.... What is the big deal with having ATC? It is not any more restrictive and in most cases enhances saftey and efficiency as has been well proven in the UK.
OSOP
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As one of the Loan system pilot currently training , I will agree that some of the people joining the aviation circle by this means have no interest pass flying off there course fees in aviation.
there are also a good number of us that are using the loan system , and going thru good training progams which will ensure we do begin usefull pilots for GA aviation and further.
I have flown 186.7 hours in last 13 months and believe my levels of situational awareness are pretty darn good , with flights to a great number of the airfields thru out NZ. I am better sure I and my instructor's are working hard to ensure I have the skills to continue on in avaition. not just be a solo idiot in the circuit etc etc
there are also a good number of us that are using the loan system , and going thru good training progams which will ensure we do begin usefull pilots for GA aviation and further.
I have flown 186.7 hours in last 13 months and believe my levels of situational awareness are pretty darn good , with flights to a great number of the airfields thru out NZ. I am better sure I and my instructor's are working hard to ensure I have the skills to continue on in avaition. not just be a solo idiot in the circuit etc etc
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My apologies MOR if my grammar was a bit off.
just trying to say I am getting in on the ground level , and i want to ensure i am a safe pilot and that i gain the experience i require to move up.
i will not be in a hurry to jumo in big aircraft , as i love flying VFR.
If a few of the people with the ego's ( well preferalbly with usefull flying experience) actually got involved on a aero club level it would ensure that the next generation of pilot's being trained are going to be usefull.
surely with all the experience some people " have" the same mistakes and issue shouldn't continue.
Back on subject , I flew into NZAP on the day the new media gave this "enlightening" report.
it's about us all ensuring we are doign us best for situational awareness.
Try reading Tony Kern's two books on Airmanship and Flight Discilpine. well worth reading.
just trying to say I am getting in on the ground level , and i want to ensure i am a safe pilot and that i gain the experience i require to move up.
i will not be in a hurry to jumo in big aircraft , as i love flying VFR.
If a few of the people with the ego's ( well preferalbly with usefull flying experience) actually got involved on a aero club level it would ensure that the next generation of pilot's being trained are going to be usefull.
surely with all the experience some people " have" the same mistakes and issue shouldn't continue.
Back on subject , I flew into NZAP on the day the new media gave this "enlightening" report.
it's about us all ensuring we are doign us best for situational awareness.
Try reading Tony Kern's two books on Airmanship and Flight Discilpine. well worth reading.
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CougarNZ,
In a post about spelling, "there skills" should be "their skills". It is not a personal attack. just that it would appear if you cannot get such a simple task correct. how are you going to handle a complex task??? This may be relevant or it may not be, but on initial contact bad spelling does not engender confidence on the abilities, or education, of the individual involved.
It would appear that to expect proper spelling is a thing that is only valued by dinosaurs in this day and age. but incorrect spelling can change completely the intent of the message, this has led to much embarrassment in the past, and no doubt will in the future.
Prospector
In a post about spelling, "there skills" should be "their skills". It is not a personal attack. just that it would appear if you cannot get such a simple task correct. how are you going to handle a complex task??? This may be relevant or it may not be, but on initial contact bad spelling does not engender confidence on the abilities, or education, of the individual involved.
It would appear that to expect proper spelling is a thing that is only valued by dinosaurs in this day and age. but incorrect spelling can change completely the intent of the message, this has led to much embarrassment in the past, and no doubt will in the future.
Prospector
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Cougar,
You'd better leave the forum if you don't want to be abused by "MOR Lord Of Civil Aviation New Zealand" - he specialies in personal attacks.
You'd better leave the forum if you don't want to be abused by "MOR Lord Of Civil Aviation New Zealand" - he specialies in personal attacks.
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CougarNZ
It wasn't a personal attack, it was an observation on SA, in other words if you cannot construct a simple sentence in english, how are you going to get on when it comes to interpreting rapid, numerous radio transmissions?
Well, I suppose it was also about the level of education of some pilots and how that relates to safety. Prospector made that point too.
It may also illustrate a complete lack of understanding of irony. Maybe.
As far as experienced pilots getting involved in local aero clubs, my experience has been that student pilots love it but instructors hate it, as it tends to make them look less authoritative. The net result is that aero clubs do not tend to like experienced people hanging around. It is a great pity, particularly as the people who have been and done the airline thing tend to have lesser egos than most instructors and many students - they have done what they set out to do, and have nothing further to prove.
I have tried to involve myself in the local club, offering expertise and experience for free, but have been... how should I say this... discouraged. Not by the students though, they are a great bunch.
Haughtney
What did I miss? The person you told off seems to have deleted his post. Pity...
It wasn't a personal attack, it was an observation on SA, in other words if you cannot construct a simple sentence in english, how are you going to get on when it comes to interpreting rapid, numerous radio transmissions?
Well, I suppose it was also about the level of education of some pilots and how that relates to safety. Prospector made that point too.
It may also illustrate a complete lack of understanding of irony. Maybe.
As far as experienced pilots getting involved in local aero clubs, my experience has been that student pilots love it but instructors hate it, as it tends to make them look less authoritative. The net result is that aero clubs do not tend to like experienced people hanging around. It is a great pity, particularly as the people who have been and done the airline thing tend to have lesser egos than most instructors and many students - they have done what they set out to do, and have nothing further to prove.
I have tried to involve myself in the local club, offering expertise and experience for free, but have been... how should I say this... discouraged. Not by the students though, they are a great bunch.
Haughtney
What did I miss? The person you told off seems to have deleted his post. Pity...