High, Fast....What to do?

[Meeb]

Wiz

Sorry mate but you are also not getting what I am saying.

There is nothing wrong per se with 'bad judgement', hell its not a hanging offence... All of us show it at times in many different ways, but owning up to it seems harder for some....

If you stuff up a descent to the point where you have to go around, so be it, and it is of course good judgement to have made the decision to go around, but it does not cancel out the bad judgement in the first place! Think about it!

All I am saying is own up, and I think that is far from dangerous, in fact it is the safest outcome, an honest pilot... maybe a novelty to you, but thats my standpoint.

And if you think that a 'guy' will try to 'put it on the ground' because he thinks the trainer will be annoyed, come off it, surely you do not believe that! (Having not worked in Asia, lets leave out that location!)

PS For your information, I do not have a dangerous attitude to flying. very much the opposite, how you can even say such a thing based on a misunderstanding is beyond me, and I would never accuse anyone of such a thing on PPRuNe! You dissapoint me old bean...

[HI'er]

Meeb, good/bad judgement has NOTHING to do with the fact that sometimes, pilots find themselves in a situation - where, even using their finest skills - NECESSITATES a go around, because of OTHER factors.

Let's take a typical example of an airport with which I am familiar, and which those of you who have accumulated "significant time" can also identify.

The aforementioned airport has a roughly speaking East-West (09/27) alignment of its runway.
Invariably, the wind reported by ATIS, and from Tower, indicates that the surface wind is either a light easterly (indicating that R/W 09 is in use), or L & V.
R/W 09 is the preferred runway, due to high terrain on the 27 end.

But in actual fact, the winds down to about 200'agl are westerly, and frequently at 500' are pushing 15-20 knots + tailwind component (I know this, because I have the luxury of an FMC )
However, for the first timer (who is flying in with no previous "local" knowledge), it's a very easy catch.
He turns finals at around 1,000' expecting to chuck out the final flap - and maybe gear - and discovers that his ground speed has INCREASED.... that the runway is now rapidly disappearing beneath the nose of the aircraft.

This was NOT due to any "bad judgement" on his fault - UNLESS he tries to land off what has rapidly deteriorated into a "kamikaze" situation.

If a pilot elects to execute a go-around, then he deserves FULL marks for knowing his own capabilities, and for having the good sense to work within them.

It's the UNSAFE/DANGEROUS pilot who will try to "save the day" by using his "superior" skills - and ends up WISHING he'd had the good sense to go-around!

[Meeb]

Hi'er

This will be my last posting on this thread because I am pretty exasperated...

The original post was about someone who stuffed up the approach, not as you are saying external factors! Of course you go around if the situation dictates... but I am talking about the original question, something you do not seem able to grasp.

I suggest you read this... Flight Safety Foundation

I fully endorse everything in the article, so please, no more ranting...

You need Adobe reader to read it.

[HI'er]

Item 9 Page 2 of your link,
"An approach that becomes unstabilised below 1,000 feet above airport elevation in IMC or 500 feet above airport elevation in VMC requires an immediate go-around".

I get the feeling you're way out of your depth here, Meeb.
A few hundred/thousand hours under your belt will likely sort you out

And just once more, for the record:-


There is NO disgrace, nor "lack of judgement", when a pilot executes a missed approach (go-around).
In fact, quite the opposite.
A go-around is often a hard call for a pilot to make - one that requires an immediate command decision to take CONTROL of the situation, instead of being suckered in to the belief that YOU have the superior ability to overcome the elements of Nature, the laws of aerodynamics and physics, and that inner gut instinct called Survival that is telling you to "Get the f@ck out of this impending disaster!".

[Meeb]

I get the feeling you're way out of your depth here, Meeb.

A few hundred/thousand hours under your belt will likely sort you out

Dont be so bloody patronising.... idiot

You are so blooming thick all you can do is keep repeating yourself... Show me where I have said anything other than a go around is the right decision should the situation dicate? You seem not able to grasp that the sequence of events leading to the go around is what is being discussed.

Suggest you leave it mate...

[HI'er]

"Show me where I have said anything other than a go around is the right decision should the situation dicate?"....Meeb
Okay - right here:-

November 26, 12:36

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no disgrace in going around - it's a sign of good judgement and airmanship
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To which Meeb responded, "Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Sheez...."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

There is NO "poor judgement" nor (poor) "airmanship" involved ("in the first place"), if a pilot ends up hot and high, due to many and varied reasons.

End of story.

[Wizofoz]

I would never accuse anyone of such a thing on PPRuNe!

Which is the result of poor judgment and airmanship in the first place...

Your words Meeb- Exasperated by being "Misunderstood"?, then don't make inflamatory remarks to begin with!

As to what your actual point is, the best I can gleen is "Try not to get unstable in the first place". Brilliant! Why didn't we think of that??

Any pilot, private , professtional or otherwise does the best he can to achieve a good outcome. What is paramount is that all pilots realise that if, for whatever reason, they are not set up for a safe landing they go around without fear of recrimination and acusation from "armchair quarterbacks" such as yourself.

Would a pilot under your supervision be able to do that without being accused of "poor judgment and airmanship"?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

My vote's for the "get the aircraft dirty then drop the noise". If you really want to push it (assuming you'll break no clearances and you know where other traffic is / won't effect other traffic) actually zoom climb to get the speed back to get dirty quicker. Only thing trying to get an approach like that in is to watch your sink rate near the ground [although it helps if your aircraft tells you "sink rate" ] . As someone said, no shame in going around..

(as much as I enjoy joking "Real men don't go around" )

[Sunfish]

I respectfully suggest that not only is a go around always a normal option, it must also be practiced. Do you bother to do that Meebs?

I've tried the option of adding drag and reducing power to idle to "save" an approach, but if you do it in an Arrow or Tobago at 300 feet you can produce some pretty scary sink rates with nothing good to look forward to if the engine chooses that moment to quit.


By coincidence I was talking to a friend yesterday who walked away, with his entire family, from a C210 that he had just broken into five pieces at Mataranka.

He was caught by the 210's yaw after deciding to GO AROUND at 50 feet and selecting full power and went left into the trees.

His approach was stuffed up by decreasing headwind (as I understand it) and he realised at 50 feet that he was high and fast. He had recently bought the aircraft and guess what? The only manoevre he hadn't practiced was going around.

He had been flying Pipers for many years, and just got caught by the strength of Cessna's yaw.

I actually tell my passenger that if I stuff up the approach, we will be going back up for another try, and as a mug low time pilot, I do this frequently at "strange" airstrips.

[Wanikiba_pilot]

Request to join the circuit upwind....

Use the track miles to slow down, configure and make it look organised for the punters/pax. Gives you a chance to practise a circuit too. You are either over the destination or in the circuit...a safe, prudent place to be. ATC can easily deal with you as well in that situation (usually!).

Sometimes orbits can be a bit messy, make you even busier and to pax (and maybe the boss) they can look inefficient, and like something is not quite right.


WP

[Mark_Tuck]

Whats the best thing to do if you're way too high ??

Slightly off topic though :

Just ask anyone flying into downtown Port Moresby lately, with no ATC radar available. I recently witnessed 2 x F28's and one DHC8 overfly the aerodrome, unable to get profile descent from ATC due to a twin otter on long final !!!!

ATC - XXX can you make straight in RWY14L from there?

Aircraft - Uhh negative im 6000ft at 4DME

[takeonme]

Too easy.


Reef the throttles back to idle, dump all flap straight away and use your knees to push the controls as far forward as they'll go.

Works for me.

[pakeha-boy]

HI er ....your original post is right on!!!....sort of find it hard to understand why Meeb doesnt get the picture.....Its because of people like Meeb,people have to have a pilots licence...the day he cocks up an approach,visual or instument,I hope he remembers his own words

[DeBurcs]

Say you're in a slippery aircraft (like a mooney or something that hates going slow

Hahahaaa....

Nothing wrong with a go-around, unless your tight-fisted psychopathic GA boss is watching (like the bloke who runs the show in YPKG).

You should practice your go-around maneouvre, too. Even airline pilots screw it up now and then because it is hardly ever actually done, outside the sim.

[The Edge's Guitar]

Have to agree with Hi'er. Easiest option is to Go Around which funnily is the worst performed manouver pilots do. It also depends on what altitude your at. Higher ones easier to descend close to max IAS then do a flat deceleration to the appropriate speed but close to ground go for the orbit, extra track miles or a go around. Just not worth it otherwise

[pakeha-boy]

mate!! your right ...the go around is one of the most poorly executed manuvers,for obvious reasons...ie hardly ever practiced,and generally only done on type rides or checks....in the last year in the bus I have done 3,one for wx one not stabilized and the other for traffic ...

But there are also other manuvers we dont practice on a regular basis,...stalls ,steep turns etc(I,m talking larger A/C here).Bottom line here is to evaluate the situation,whether it be your doing or not and try to make the right decision....the superior pilot.......

[ITCZ]

Sunfish, good point. Its not just the C210 that can be a handful in a go around.

Go rounds 'on the line' in jets and turboprops are so rare, and lets admit it, a bit of a surprise sometimes, that quite often they are very badly handled in real life. In the sim they are smooth and practiced -- you are expecting them! I have been crew on three go rounds in a burner, and I humbly admit that they were poor relations to the well rehearsed, anticipated go rounds in sim checks. :horror:

The lesson -- expect the unexpected! Stable on final, have a quick review of how to go round if it all goes to worms.

Should take my own advice

[Jenna Talia]

Sunfish,

I am rather surprised your friend was not shown the effects of yaw in a go-around situation with a C210. It was one of the first manouvres I had to display an adequate degree of competency at when I was first checked out on the type some years ago.

An extreme handful during the go-around, not only due to the yaw, but also the required physical push force to the yoke with full flap selected to stop the aircraft from pitching up.

In my view, it was the most important component of the check.

If he intends to purchase another C210 through insurance, I strongly suggest he attends a Cessna Pilots Association of Australia, Pilot Proficiency course that is held once a year. In the not too distant future, he and other owners may no choice to due to the direction taken by insurance companies. A very worthwhile course.

Apologies for being off topic.

[Sunfish]

No worries Jenna. He told me that he hadn't been shown or done a go around in a C210. I don't think he knew what a handful it could be (I don't either). He hasn't flown since the accident and is now thinking about buying a Chieftain, polishing it into mint condition and getting a professional to drive it for him.

[Lodown]

Cut power. Full back stick and full right rudder. Hold while the ground starts rotating rapidly. Plane comes down very fast in a short distance.