Checklists! when, where is there overkill?
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Thank you Speeds High
It really bugs me to hear all this talk of configuring an aircraft from a checklist - that is not the way airlines do it, and is less effective than using no list at all.
All essential checks (eg. pre-takeoff DVAs) should be done from memory, without reference to any written material. After these 'memory items' are complete, the relevent checklist is reviewed to confirm the configuration of all essential systems. It is a checklist, not a doinglist.
The CFI in question was quite correct to roll his eyes at you
from the explanation you gave. Your example is nothing like the proceedures used by a 747 crew? In my view, the effectiveness of a proceedure is ranked in this order:
1. Items actioned from memory, backed up by (abreviated) checklist.
2. Items actioned from memory
3. Items actioned from list
I've flown with quite a few Brittish PPLs who would be lost without their 'proceedure lists', in times of high workload they are simply UNSAFE. For those of you complaining that your memory is not up to scratch, perhaps if you used it, you wouldn't loose it.
It really bugs me to hear all this talk of configuring an aircraft from a checklist - that is not the way airlines do it, and is less effective than using no list at all.
All essential checks (eg. pre-takeoff DVAs) should be done from memory, without reference to any written material. After these 'memory items' are complete, the relevent checklist is reviewed to confirm the configuration of all essential systems. It is a checklist, not a doinglist.
The CFI in question was quite correct to roll his eyes at you
from the explanation you gave. Your example is nothing like the proceedures used by a 747 crew? In my view, the effectiveness of a proceedure is ranked in this order:1. Items actioned from memory, backed up by (abreviated) checklist.
2. Items actioned from memory
3. Items actioned from list
I've flown with quite a few Brittish PPLs who would be lost without their 'proceedure lists', in times of high workload they are simply UNSAFE. For those of you complaining that your memory is not up to scratch, perhaps if you used it, you wouldn't loose it.
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 4th Oct 2004 at 01:36.
Grandpa Aerotart
Ultralights
Unless I missunderstood you you are using a checklist for the walk around preflight?
This is not what airline pilots do...I don't have a written list in my hand while doing the preflight on a 767...I have a torch. I have never used a written checklist to do a walk around ever...well except for my first three flying lessons in the C152 and on the third my instructor took it off me and wouldn't give it back
Same thing happened with preflight cockpit set up...then he showed me the geographical method...that has worked on every aeroplane since...including the 767.
I know CASA 'require' written checklists for everybloodything these days but that, IMHO, is just one of the glaring (ar$ecovering) failures of CASA.
Pneumonics such as TEMPFICH, PUFF etc are just as much checklists as written pages and far more valid in most, if not all, GA aircraft.
Checklists are NOT DOlists! A geographic or phase of flight specific scan is followed by the checklist or pneumonic to ensure nothing IMPORTANT has been missed. You should NOT be using a checklist for gear extension as an example. It should happen at a specific part of the approach. I use passing abeam the landing threshold in my Bonanza...ALWAYS...if on a straight in approach the gear goes down at 1500' agl (same in the 767 BTW). The two actions are connected in my mind to such an extent that it's almost impossible to do one and not the other...and on finals a quick PUFF check catches any stuff ups before they become expensive.
You would have a difficult time believing how few checklists we have in Boeings and how short they are. We do entire scans with no checklist backup at all, such as entering the runway/lining up, Transition level passing, after landing. They are all situation specific scans done from (muscle) memory...one pilot does the scan and the other pilot quietly checks it's been done.
We have checklists to ensure things that will kill you (Like flaps, trims) are set properly and they are also backed up by configuration warnings in the EICAS system that will catch any gross, repeated forgotten items.
The only paper, written checklist on the Boeings is one laminated page with several checklists, each of about four to six items, for things like preflight, before engine start, securing etc. These are actioned from memory and then read by one pilot while the other looks to see they are done and responds appropriately. The Boeing pre takeoff checklist has one, yes 1, item...FLAPS...although the airline I work for has shoved a whole 3 more items on it covering cabin ready, departure review etc
Over the years lots of things we allegedly do in the airlines have crept into GA. In almost all cases they have been missunderstood and missapplied.
Unless I missunderstood you you are using a checklist for the walk around preflight?
This is not what airline pilots do...I don't have a written list in my hand while doing the preflight on a 767...I have a torch. I have never used a written checklist to do a walk around ever...well except for my first three flying lessons in the C152 and on the third my instructor took it off me and wouldn't give it back
Same thing happened with preflight cockpit set up...then he showed me the geographical method...that has worked on every aeroplane since...including the 767.
I know CASA 'require' written checklists for everybloodything these days but that, IMHO, is just one of the glaring (ar$ecovering) failures of CASA.
Pneumonics such as TEMPFICH, PUFF etc are just as much checklists as written pages and far more valid in most, if not all, GA aircraft.
Checklists are NOT DOlists! A geographic or phase of flight specific scan is followed by the checklist or pneumonic to ensure nothing IMPORTANT has been missed. You should NOT be using a checklist for gear extension as an example. It should happen at a specific part of the approach. I use passing abeam the landing threshold in my Bonanza...ALWAYS...if on a straight in approach the gear goes down at 1500' agl (same in the 767 BTW). The two actions are connected in my mind to such an extent that it's almost impossible to do one and not the other...and on finals a quick PUFF check catches any stuff ups before they become expensive.
You would have a difficult time believing how few checklists we have in Boeings and how short they are. We do entire scans with no checklist backup at all, such as entering the runway/lining up, Transition level passing, after landing. They are all situation specific scans done from (muscle) memory...one pilot does the scan and the other pilot quietly checks it's been done.
We have checklists to ensure things that will kill you (Like flaps, trims) are set properly and they are also backed up by configuration warnings in the EICAS system that will catch any gross, repeated forgotten items.
The only paper, written checklist on the Boeings is one laminated page with several checklists, each of about four to six items, for things like preflight, before engine start, securing etc. These are actioned from memory and then read by one pilot while the other looks to see they are done and responds appropriately. The Boeing pre takeoff checklist has one, yes 1, item...FLAPS...although the airline I work for has shoved a whole 3 more items on it covering cabin ready, departure review etc
Over the years lots of things we allegedly do in the airlines have crept into GA. In almost all cases they have been missunderstood and missapplied.
They are fine ultralights but you might like to approach them a bit differently.
Do the items required from memory, in a flow type arrangement (start top one corner and move across the panel).
When all has been completed, then read the checklist to see if you missed anything and that thye have been done.
If you read the checklist then do one item, read the checklist do the next item, thn it is not only time consuming, it can be dangerous with all that head inside cockpit time, and not noticing the climbing oil temp, handbrake creep, the other cessna coming head on...
Use it to CHECK that all the things have been done.
Do the items required from memory, in a flow type arrangement (start top one corner and move across the panel).
When all has been completed, then read the checklist to see if you missed anything and that thye have been done.
If you read the checklist then do one item, read the checklist do the next item, thn it is not only time consuming, it can be dangerous with all that head inside cockpit time, and not noticing the climbing oil temp, handbrake creep, the other cessna coming head on...
Use it to CHECK that all the things have been done.
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Concur.
A checklist is a checklist whether or not you use a piece of paper or your memory.
Some of us here are getting confused with the challenge and response type of checklist as used in a multi-crew environemtn and a checklist used for single pilot ops.
The RAAF training system requires all normal (and bold faced emergency) checks be commited to memory, but pilots are also to carry a printed checklist for reference if needed.
I wouldn't have a problem with someone using a printed checklist if they were flying an aircraft they were unfamiliar with. However I would recommend that they take the next step and commit the checks to memory if they planned on using that aircraft type more often.
Sounds like your CFI needs to broaden his/her horizons a little.
A checklist is a checklist whether or not you use a piece of paper or your memory.
Some of us here are getting confused with the challenge and response type of checklist as used in a multi-crew environemtn and a checklist used for single pilot ops.
The RAAF training system requires all normal (and bold faced emergency) checks be commited to memory, but pilots are also to carry a printed checklist for reference if needed.
I wouldn't have a problem with someone using a printed checklist if they were flying an aircraft they were unfamiliar with. However I would recommend that they take the next step and commit the checks to memory if they planned on using that aircraft type more often.
Sounds like your CFI needs to broaden his/her horizons a little.
Thread Starter
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i have never used a checklist for walk around and pre flight inspections, i usually use the list for pre startup, and pre take off.
my usual habbit is run throught the list in memory, but with the list in hand. eg, after a few hours in a jab, i will usually run through the list in my head, but if i get into an arrow after the few hrs in another type, i will use the printed list. i also prefer to se the list for pre landing, especially because i fly a nice mix or fixed and retractable gear aircraft. some people have commented on my downwind procedure when in the arrow, i will begin pre landing setup as im over flying the feild, or joining the circuir either crosswind or downwind, i will almost have the gear down as i turn downwind. of course, the jabiru landing checks are a lot simpler, fuel on, brakes off, belts, harnesses, door secure. thats it. no prop, no mixture to worry about, only 1 tank,
my usual habbit is run throught the list in memory, but with the list in hand. eg, after a few hours in a jab, i will usually run through the list in my head, but if i get into an arrow after the few hrs in another type, i will use the printed list. i also prefer to se the list for pre landing, especially because i fly a nice mix or fixed and retractable gear aircraft. some people have commented on my downwind procedure when in the arrow, i will begin pre landing setup as im over flying the feild, or joining the circuir either crosswind or downwind, i will almost have the gear down as i turn downwind. of course, the jabiru landing checks are a lot simpler, fuel on, brakes off, belts, harnesses, door secure. thats it. no prop, no mixture to worry about, only 1 tank,
Captain Sand Dune
Yes but both should be used as a “checklist”, not a “To Do List. In multi crew and single pilot ops, all items should be done from memory, whether this is by flow pattern or mnemonics doesn’t matter. What ever works best for you. Once they are done and at the correct time a checklist should be called. In a multi crew environment, the PNF will read and the PF will respond. In single pilot ops the pilot will read and respond. When I flew single pilot ops a number of years ago, we use to have flip-flop checklist mounted on top of the panel. They worked very well in that I could keep my eyes outside when it was extremely important to do so and complete the checklist.
Some of us here are getting confused with the challenge and response type of checklist as used in a multi-crew environment and a checklist used for single pilot ops.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Thank you Chuckles and others for saying in clear and concise terms what I meant but in my usual muddled way failed to say, ie a checklist is not a to do list!!
The company for whom I do some occasional work in PA31s has a rather neat laminated A4 sized checklist which is used for that precise purpose.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
The company for whom I do some occasional work in PA31s has a rather neat laminated A4 sized checklist which is used for that precise purpose.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Checklist - Big Airline way....
Most are of the physical do the checks, then read and confirm
eg, Push/Start, After Start, After T/o, After lndg, shut down cx.
Others are read and do - Cockpit prep, Descent checks
There are of course memory drills for things you just have to know.
the checks are much shorter than on a light a/c, and we do them much more often - but we still get the check list out and do it as we have been trained.
Consequences of missing something when tired, under pressure in bad wx etc are too great to just pay these things lip service.
Most are of the physical do the checks, then read and confirm
eg, Push/Start, After Start, After T/o, After lndg, shut down cx.
Others are read and do - Cockpit prep, Descent checks
There are of course memory drills for things you just have to know.
the checks are much shorter than on a light a/c, and we do them much more often - but we still get the check list out and do it as we have been trained.
Consequences of missing something when tired, under pressure in bad wx etc are too great to just pay these things lip service.
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Saw a roller blind type checklist fitted to the coaming on a privately owned ex RAAF Winjeel trainer. You used to be able to buy them in Pilots Shops then typed your own checks on the roller blind. Pity if you made a spelling error, though.
The first words printed on this particular checklist was "Gooday". Real professional I thought. Took me some time to wind through the lot and counted 135 different checks to be called from start to stop. The owner must surely have been kidding himself that he needed all those checks to fly a Winjeel trainer.
The RAAF instructors in those days made you commit to memory all drills but no way were there ever 135 items. More like 30 or so.
The first words printed on this particular checklist was "Gooday". Real professional I thought. Took me some time to wind through the lot and counted 135 different checks to be called from start to stop. The owner must surely have been kidding himself that he needed all those checks to fly a Winjeel trainer.
The RAAF instructors in those days made you commit to memory all drills but no way were there ever 135 items. More like 30 or so.
Grandpa Aerotart
Hudson
A very good example of the overcomplicating stupidity that has overtaken much of GA...at the insistance of CASA most of the time.
A C441 I used to fly had one...ex RFDS aeroplane. I found it to be a major distraction to use and some of the items on it completely stupid....like 'reduce to xxxx lbs TQ at TOPD' or something similar...I mean really!!! I ended up flying that aircraft for the best part of a year and about 300 hrs with no (written) checklists at all...just geographic scans at various points in the flight and a PUFF check turning finals. I did have written checklists for things that were not done every flight...like NTS system checks etc.
All SE piston powered aircraft are essentially identical...and I mean ALL.
If we ask ourselves what items can really hurt me..and therefore should be on some kind of checklist it comes down to trims/prop/undercarriage/fuel and flaps.
Even the old faithfulls like TEMPFISCH and BUMPFISCH, which are excellent, are essentially overkill in a typical Piper or Cessna...none the less they form all the checklists you will EVER need in any and every piston single or twin.
Do we need checklist items like landing lights/check windsock/park brake/beacon/strobes/set QNH and on and on?
I would argue not...but then CASA disagrees with me and all CFIs must do as Cretins Against Sensible Aviation decree.
If the park brake was off enough for you to takeoff (and you haven't fecked with it since) it should be off enough for you to land.
Oil T&Ps need to be on a checklist? not really..part of a scan yes.
Was a time when we were taught in such a way (well I was anyway) that we could hop in whatever we were pointed at, within the bounds of group endorsements, and blast off safely without a written checklist in sight.
A very good example of the overcomplicating stupidity that has overtaken much of GA...at the insistance of CASA most of the time.
A C441 I used to fly had one...ex RFDS aeroplane. I found it to be a major distraction to use and some of the items on it completely stupid....like 'reduce to xxxx lbs TQ at TOPD' or something similar...I mean really!!! I ended up flying that aircraft for the best part of a year and about 300 hrs with no (written) checklists at all...just geographic scans at various points in the flight and a PUFF check turning finals. I did have written checklists for things that were not done every flight...like NTS system checks etc.
All SE piston powered aircraft are essentially identical...and I mean ALL.
If we ask ourselves what items can really hurt me..and therefore should be on some kind of checklist it comes down to trims/prop/undercarriage/fuel and flaps.
Even the old faithfulls like TEMPFISCH and BUMPFISCH, which are excellent, are essentially overkill in a typical Piper or Cessna...none the less they form all the checklists you will EVER need in any and every piston single or twin.
Do we need checklist items like landing lights/check windsock/park brake/beacon/strobes/set QNH and on and on?
I would argue not...but then CASA disagrees with me and all CFIs must do as Cretins Against Sensible Aviation decree.
If the park brake was off enough for you to takeoff (and you haven't fecked with it since) it should be off enough for you to land.
Oil T&Ps need to be on a checklist? not really..part of a scan yes.
Was a time when we were taught in such a way (well I was anyway) that we could hop in whatever we were pointed at, within the bounds of group endorsements, and blast off safely without a written checklist in sight.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 6th Oct 2004 at 01:13.
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The RAAF instructors in those days made you commit to memory all drills but no way were there ever 135 items. More like 30 or so.
The CT4B has over 210 items of normal checks which are to be memorised.
The there's the bold faced emergencies..............
A very good article here on the proper use of checklists in the Operations section.
http://www.smartcockpit.com
I tend to agree that a checklist should include only those items or procedures which have a direct impact on normal operations and be used only to verify that certain actions have been completed and not read like an incantation. Respect them, but use them for what they really are - a true double check
A
http://www.smartcockpit.com
I tend to agree that a checklist should include only those items or procedures which have a direct impact on normal operations and be used only to verify that certain actions have been completed and not read like an incantation. Respect them, but use them for what they really are - a true double check
A
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Perhaps the whole point of a fairly detailed written checklist is to get relatively inexperienced students to realise that there are a whole lot of things that should be checked/noted/looked at during different phases of flight.
With experience and familiarity on type, I've replaced a written checklist with mnemonics and now subconciously check, (hopefully all) other items.
eg. 'check windsock on final' is now an automatic action and backed-up with what the aircraft is actually doing.
With experience and familiarity on type, I've replaced a written checklist with mnemonics and now subconciously check, (hopefully all) other items.
eg. 'check windsock on final' is now an automatic action and backed-up with what the aircraft is actually doing.
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I know some pilots who are so careful that they even use a checklist to start their car.
If I ever jumped into a car with a pilot who started to run through a pre start drill I wouldn't know whether to laugh, cry or get the hell out and run away.
I wonder if these pilots who are so careful with checklists use them in other aspects of their life?
What fascinating creatures they must be.
What interesting conversations they must have.
What long strokes they must make.
Grandpa Aerotart
BiO if that were the case it would not be unreasonable...but I don't think its the case.
In my opinion a good mneumonic is all that could ever be required in any GA aircraft.
TEMPFISCH/BUMPFISCH/PUFF allied to well thought out geographic scans are all that is ever and has ever been required in any SP operated aircraft.
Page upon page of written checklists make for braindead pilots.
In my opinion a good mneumonic is all that could ever be required in any GA aircraft.
TEMPFISCH/BUMPFISCH/PUFF allied to well thought out geographic scans are all that is ever and has ever been required in any SP operated aircraft.
Page upon page of written checklists make for braindead pilots.
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LIke this curious habit taught at flying schools that you should call wheels down and locked and three greens in fixed gear aircraft!
I was taught BUMCFSH or its slight variations, 'Undercarriage - Fixed'. The reasoning I was given was to get in the habit of thinking about undercarriage.
However, on the other side of the coin - once your training reaches the point of flying retractable undercarriage aircraft, are you doing it parrot fashion and not reallly checking before moving on the the next item?
CASA, like it or not, has mandated the use of AFM checklists in Australia today. While in practice (right or wrong) many operators, both flying schools and other organisations use their own type of checklist. IMO this is because in many GA aircraft the checklists are ridiculously long and in the case of the Pa-31 series for example, were simply not designed for use in this fashion. These type of "checklists" do not distinguish between memory recall items and checks and additionally add substantial instructional material (such as what speed to rotate at till what height, etc).
Having said that remember it is the one day that you are in crappy weather, a vaguely similar aircraft type (206/210 or archer/ arrow) distracted on the radio, tired ,etc. that law of averages will catch up with you!
Piper, in many of their aircraft, have pre-landing checks listed on the coping (eg, near the fuel gauges etc) These checks are usually brief and referenced directly from the AFM making them legal and very useful. Other CHECKS, like after start and pre take off I did from a written list having previously actioned the items. Reading the instructions included on manufacturers checks doesn't take that long and if it saves you from looking the fool once a year, its a good system.
IMO, I do believe that it must be written, not only does it reduce the chance of anything being missed, it is a specific cockpit task that you remember having looked at when you float for that second too long that saves you having to look back at the green lights. Much the same as multi crew pilots specifically stating "pre landing checks complete" You have put the gear down and seen the lights a million times but with those words having just been stated 60 seconds ago by the non flying pilot you know its all squared away.
The only time I use a memory checklist (as opposed to memory recall actions) is my walkaround, This is not a daily inspection, it simply checks that all doors are closed, caps are on, chocks are away, etc. There is seven items for this on my current aircraft, it takes about eight to ten seconds to complete, it is well worth the peace of mind.
Willie
Having said that remember it is the one day that you are in crappy weather, a vaguely similar aircraft type (206/210 or archer/ arrow) distracted on the radio, tired ,etc. that law of averages will catch up with you!
Piper, in many of their aircraft, have pre-landing checks listed on the coping (eg, near the fuel gauges etc) These checks are usually brief and referenced directly from the AFM making them legal and very useful. Other CHECKS, like after start and pre take off I did from a written list having previously actioned the items. Reading the instructions included on manufacturers checks doesn't take that long and if it saves you from looking the fool once a year, its a good system.
IMO, I do believe that it must be written, not only does it reduce the chance of anything being missed, it is a specific cockpit task that you remember having looked at when you float for that second too long that saves you having to look back at the green lights. Much the same as multi crew pilots specifically stating "pre landing checks complete" You have put the gear down and seen the lights a million times but with those words having just been stated 60 seconds ago by the non flying pilot you know its all squared away.
The only time I use a memory checklist (as opposed to memory recall actions) is my walkaround, This is not a daily inspection, it simply checks that all doors are closed, caps are on, chocks are away, etc. There is seven items for this on my current aircraft, it takes about eight to ten seconds to complete, it is well worth the peace of mind.
Willie
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Read an interesting piece on Avweb
The pilots of an Air Transat Airbus A330 that glided to a landing in the Azores in August 2001 responded incorrectly to a fuel leak over the Atlantic Ocean, according to the official report on the incident, released Monday. The pilots, reacting to what they thought was a fuel imbalance, fed fuel into the leak, and soon succeeded in inadvertently pumping all their fuel overboard, far from land. The report said the pilots acted from memory rather than utilizing a checklist, so they never saw a "Caution" note in the Fuel Imbalance checklist that might have caused them to consider that the real problem was not an imbalance but a fuel leak. "Although there were a number of other indications that a significant fuel loss was occurring, the crew did not conclude that a fuel leak situation existed -- not actioning the 'Fuel Leak' procedure was the key factor that led to the fuel exhaustion," according to the report. The fuel leak was the ultimate result of an improperly installed fuel line that fractured.
The pilots of an Air Transat Airbus A330 that glided to a landing in the Azores in August 2001 responded incorrectly to a fuel leak over the Atlantic Ocean, according to the official report on the incident, released Monday. The pilots, reacting to what they thought was a fuel imbalance, fed fuel into the leak, and soon succeeded in inadvertently pumping all their fuel overboard, far from land. The report said the pilots acted from memory rather than utilizing a checklist, so they never saw a "Caution" note in the Fuel Imbalance checklist that might have caused them to consider that the real problem was not an imbalance but a fuel leak. "Although there were a number of other indications that a significant fuel loss was occurring, the crew did not conclude that a fuel leak situation existed -- not actioning the 'Fuel Leak' procedure was the key factor that led to the fuel exhaustion," according to the report. The fuel leak was the ultimate result of an improperly installed fuel line that fractured.
Heads Down for Checklists - Who's Watching for Traffic?
One of the common faults I see in Flight Reviews, ( 24 in last 12 months - everything from C210 to Cubs), is that the pilots either have minimal checks, or it's a head down -read- it -out- job.
Lookout and scan is one of the really weak parts I see in Reviews, and reading out a bloody 5 page check list for a C172 only makes things worse.
There seems to be a blind faith that if you make a radio call of downwind,runway 36,Woop Woop , and there's no reply, that there's no need to look for anything, ever.
I'd sooner see a very basic mental checklist used, and the eyes used outside far more.
happy days,
One of the common faults I see in Flight Reviews, ( 24 in last 12 months - everything from C210 to Cubs), is that the pilots either have minimal checks, or it's a head down -read- it -out- job.
Lookout and scan is one of the really weak parts I see in Reviews, and reading out a bloody 5 page check list for a C172 only makes things worse.
There seems to be a blind faith that if you make a radio call of downwind,runway 36,Woop Woop , and there's no reply, that there's no need to look for anything, ever.
I'd sooner see a very basic mental checklist used, and the eyes used outside far more.
happy days,