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To all Dick dislikers...

Old 1st Sep 2003, 20:36
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 138
Angel To all Dick dislikers...

It seems that there are a lot of blokes who subscribe to PPRuNe who aren't fans of Dick Smith. Now I must admit that I'm not exactly an adoring fan myself, however, I can't accept that he is acting out of unashamed self-interest.

Most of his detractors seem to be willing to accept that his intentions are less than honourable while their own intentions seem to be more focussed on the perpetuation of a status quo that they believe benefits them, (or their passengers), to the exclusion of other airspace users. This sounds, feels, and tastes like elitism to me.

Gentlemen, before you assault me verbally for my opinion, I would remind you that it is not a case of us or them. There is no rational reason why VFR and IFR RPT can't live in harmony. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any measure designed to inhibit another's pursuit of happiness, (safety and efficiency), is actually contrary to the realisation of the goal. It's not a battle where only one can win.

I like quotes that offer profound observations about life. Here's one from the preface of "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky.
"No-one may build his happiness on another's pain"

Some may consider that Dick's pursuit of happiness, or safety and efficiency, will be built on their pain. And, I must admit that it will, at least if you accept that it is painful for some to accept change that permits others relief from pain (happiness). Of course, this pain will only last as long as the "victim" wishes to hold onto the hurt, and I reckon that once they get used to it, the NAS and other reforms might actually become grudgingly accepted. With a lot of moaning of course. Can't let them think that we're having too much fun can we?

It should also be accepted that a little sacrifice is good for the soul. Of course I don't mean sacrificing your precious cargo. Dick's reforms, including the NAS can not have that effect, except in your mind. May I humbly suggest that a little self-sacrifice in the manner being postulated in the NAS will not only benefit VFR, but also IFR RPT immeasurably. LIVE, yes, but also LET LIVE!

Another quote from some bloke I know reasonably well,
"You can't elevate yourself by putting another down". Elevate yourselves by all means gentlemen.

Believe it or not, Dick, and Mike for that matter, (wonder if they're related?)seem to have a vision of a better world. They can see how good it could be for aviation in Australia, and are willing to accept the barbs and criticisms of the community to achieve it. Unless you have the courage of your convictions to stand up against the majority to explain how we can do it better, you will not be able to understand them. All leaders have learnt to deal with their detractors, good thing we don't live in pre-, or even post- war Iraq, eh?

Regardless of this, search for the faults in their argument. Make sure that you validify the facts clearly, unemotionally, forgetting all that you think you know. If you cannot put aside all that you think you know you cannot discover anything new.

I'm no genius, but if the Americans can manage with this system in a country with far more aircraft in the same airspace then why can't we?. Yes, they have more radar, but even they don't have radar where it isn't warranted.

And finally, check out BIK_116.8's post on the end of page 2.
The topic is "Reports of excessive and unreasonable CASA actions" on the D&G GA forum.
Anyone who has the guts to personally admit wrong on behalf of a government bureaucracy over which they have personally little control is deserving of more respect than he is getting here.

Another good quote comes to mind. A young student after being admonished for failing to respect his flying instructors. "I used to respect them but they didn't respect us back." Respect is a two way street. Probably not relevant, but I did tell you that I like quotes.

Also, before any replies. My rules of engagement.

Reasoned rational argument only. Robust, yes, but lets keep it clean.

There are plenty of other posts where you can vent your spleen, but here I request that you mind your manners.

Some younger ppruners may be actually viewing your posts in order to understand the issue. Make your post something of which you would be proud for your son to read. Make that your mum if you're unmarried. You get the idea?

Of course, you're a pilot! Quick neural synapses and reflexes and all that. You'll understand my meaning,........ won't you?

Manwell is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 05:03
  #2 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
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Manwell how long have you been in this industry...your post indicates to me that you're a relative newcommer?


I have been flying 23 years, 10000+hrs in everything from SE VFR PNG to International jet command. I have been listening to and reading Dick Smith's words since he penned '20 years in the Aviation hall of doom' back in the early 80s.

It's interesting that when he wrote that he was as vociferously anti CAA as most of us are today...and with good reason...since then he has been CASA boss and upset more professionals within this industry than just about anyone else I can think of.

Clearly he is a very successfull individual in his professional life. Most people who succeed as he has done could be discribed as 'control freaks' and I believe his terrier like pursuit of 'aviation reform' has more to do with proving he is right than anything else.

Do you honestly think that when the vast majority of aviation professional disagrees with him he is still right and we are a bunch of children hell bent on the status quo?

He is convinced that the US system is the best in the world but that is NOT the system he is trying to introduce here. The US system works well enough in the US but our system here works bloody well too...this is not the US.

Our system in Australia already shares many common attributes with the US system, CTAFs are one example. Our IFR system, particularly that used by International IFR RPT traffic is already in line with ICAO and effectively identical to everywhere else.

So that leaves the unwanted tinkering with the domestic VFR/IFR mix that does not effect any international arrivals/departures and therefore does not need to be anything other than what WE consider to be the best system for OUR levels of traffic/weather/levels of infrastructure.

Between 1986 and last November I did virtually no VFR flights in Australia as I was mostly working overseas. When I had left these shores we had full reporting, FS units etc.

Last November I went down to Scone to retrieve my Bonanza after engine overhaul and approached the flight back to QLD with a slight feeling of unease. Mostly because it had been so long since I'd flown VFR but more because I didn't feel good about the VFR system that Australia has now which effectively excludes any aircraft not paying money to the system. While tracking north just inland of the coast in marginal VFR conditons much IFR traffic was arriving and departing from various coastal cities and they didn't know I was there. It bugged me so much I ended up calling ATC with my current position/alt/tracking details and estimates and asked them to inform any IFR traffic that might be nearby. Their initial response was somewhat amazed that I'd bother but soon they asking for weather reports from me etc.

Things got a whole lot safer because I insisted on being in the system and used the radio. When I'm IFR I DEMAND to know who else is ducking and weaving around build ups.

Unlike DS's simplistic view of the world IFR aircraft are not in cloud and, like VFR will be looking for the gaps in the weather to avoid damage from hail etc and to give the pax a smooth ride.

My next flight was out to Longreach. I decided that as the system didn't want to know me I'd play their silly game again. NOSAR/No Details it used to be called....and it's dumb. 30-40nm from Longreach I decided there must be heaps of other aircraft all going to see the 747 arrive so made an all stations call...there were and they all popped up with details...some were quite close and given the mix of high wing/low wing we may not have seen each other until it was too late. Perhaps we may not have known of each other until the last 10 miles...bit late in my opinion.

After that I decided that I would fly as per the good old days with proper flight plans submitted and ATC clearances where required to operate in Class C airspace. My next trip was to Mittagong and I just planned straight through whatever airspace was there at safe VFR levels and got cleared as required by the, as usual, brilliant ATCOs. Easy, pleasant and safe. Everyone who needed to know where I was did and I was able to participate in what, in my experience, IS one of the worlds best systems...equal or better than anywhere else I have flown.

The only clearance I didn't get was across Sydney. I could have been cleared if IFR at FL110 but as my aircraft is VFR only for the time being I declined and went VFR via the Lane of Entry etc. No big deal but around Brooklyn Bridge conditions were marginal and the overall effect was less comfortable and a little less safe. Once again aircraft were close around me and the conditions of cloud and haze made see and be seen the joke it really I used the the manner that Dick says is innappropriate within that LOE...and avoided a near miss with another VFR aircraft.

I believe Dick Smith is wrong and the fact that so little information is forthcomming from the ARG convinces me that they have few good answers.

As far as the King show is concerned I did not attend. If they were the professionals CASA claim they would have known better than to come to a country they have not flown around before and ,after a quick trip in a IFR Piper Chieftain, pretend that they are qualified to offer any comment whatsoever.

Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 05:30
  #3 (permalink)  
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As far as the King show is concerned I did not attend. If they were the professionals CASA claim they would have known better than to come to a country they have not flown around before and ,after a quick trip in a IFR Piper Chieftain, pretend that they are qualified to offer any comment whatsoever.
The Kings have been here before a couple of times over the years. They also fly themselves around Australia......
C182 Drover is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 06:25
  #4 (permalink)  
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well said that man

Very well said manwell.

I note you were immediately tarred with being a newcomer by Chimbu who couldn't help but recite his resume:

I have been flying 23 years, 10000+hrs in everything from SE VFR PNG to International jet command.
Ho hum. What is it about you guys??? I personally find it boring and unimpressive, perhaps I should read back the numbers on my late father's pewter mugs!!!!!

This reminds me of a funny story. Back in the early 80's doing my first dual nav we arrived at (the then uncontrolled) Moroochy. We lined up on final after making all the (then) required calls and hearing nothing. We watched as we slowly drifted down as a F-27 (up up and away) taxied onto the runway. No calls, nuffin.

My (ex airline) instructor casually asked "F-27 Maroochy, whats the weather like there". the posh voice at the other end replied "CAVOK" whereupon my instructor replied "well look out the f&^%$#g window then!".

It works in the US, NAS will work here and the odd RPT 'hero' who doesn't like it will just have to either get used to it or practise saying "would you like fries with that!"

There are plenty of kids out there who can deal with change and are just waiting for your job to come up.


snarek is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 07:13
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My rules of engagement too!

"Reasoned rational argument only. Robust, yes, but lets keep it clean."

Woomera is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 08:06
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It works in the US, NAS will work here and the odd RPT 'hero' who doesn't like it will just have to either get used to it or practise saying "would you like fries with that!"
Yes it may well, but in the process there are some hurdles to jump and they include recognition that we have a very different culture and upbringing here and that the education will have to be significant and ONGOING in order to make it work.

To date the education program is still classified it seems!

I am both an IFR pilot and VFR owner with many years in the industry and I find it criminal that the system does not seem to care about the VFR participant in the airways system. If we educate the VFR pilot in the same manner as the USA then we are stepping in the right direction, but I have seen no sign of that as yet!

Let's see AOPA push for the education program to be out in the open. And I believe it must be ongoing - for years if necessary!

There are pilots out there now that have very little or no knowledge of the airways system when they should and this is the fault of CASA and the flying training system I believe. With all this change, who is taking responsibility to (re)train these individuals?

(and Yes, I am an AOPA member)

"No known traffic"
triadic is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 09:00
  #7 (permalink)  
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nail hit on head!


At last, you have summerised the problem, culture.

I agree VFR pilots will need as much educating as their IFR RPT counterparts as will some levels of ATC. I for instance would like to see identical Civil airspace procedures, particularly around Darwin and Townsville which are for all intents and purposes civil airports.

(Mike Smith and I seem to disagree, I prefer civil ATC, he thinks Mil ATC are more easy to get on with).

Once we see where the problems lay AOPA will respond with safety articles etc in the near future.

snarek is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 09:06
  #8 (permalink)  
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They are trying to sell NAS with the promise of cost saving and improved safety, however, NONE of the infomation that they have made avaliable tells us how it will improve safety. They tell me that it WILL improve safety, now I want it explained HOW it will improve safety. Not to much to ask
roach trap is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 14:58
  #9 (permalink)  
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Thankyou for all your replies, most of which were within my rules of engagement.

To snarek, don't do it again. And thanks.

Now roach trap. May I call you roach? As far as I can work out, the problem is highlighted by the difference between my "view"
and the "views" of blokes like Chimbu Chuckles. Very well written reply that, thanks Chuck.

You see, I reckon that my eyes are more capable of ensuring that I don't run into someone else, and, for some reason quite obscure to me, others believe that ATC is of greater significance than my experience can justify.

Now, I could theorise as to why others prefer another bloke or lady in a windowless room half way across the country to look out for them while putting more faith in radio alerting than I can honestly justify, but I'd be guessing.

Perhaps Chuck could just explain why he thinks that talking to ATC or other traffic is better than just looking out the window.

In fact, he's right about one thing. Our system is better than the US system. Providing two things.
1. You aren't paying for it, and
2. Traffic levels are low enough to
permit this high level of service

Make that three things, 3. You don't mind relying on a third
party to do things as critical as
looking out for you.

Better make that four, 4. You don't need the flexibility to get
into CTA at short notice, or to even
get direct tracking.

Once I couldn't get out of SY all the way to BK, VFR, because I didn't have a flight plan in the system.

I suppose the difference is one of culture. I'm single pilot inclined, while Chuck is multi-crew through and through.

By the way Chuck, I don't just think Dick is right. I look at aviation in Australia, then the vibrance of aviation in the US, the numbers of aircraft in the same space, worse wx, rougher terrain,
with much easier ATC procedures. And like JFK, I reckon "Why Not?" When you fly airlines a lot you get used to the system. It's not so easy for the occasional user.

In the end, I reckon that we'll all get used to it though. It's not as bad as we can imagine. In fact, nothing's as bad as we can imagine.

Keep up the good work chaps. And snarek, you're not a naughty boy, but your behaviour could be regarded as a little impudent! Chuck doesn't deserve it either.

Life's a bitch, then you fly.
Manwell is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 18:18
  #10 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Sorry to get up your nose snarek but I believe in subjects like this one it is usefull to have an idea of the posters background.


I find it very difficult to believe the US airspace system is responsible for the GA industries alleged vibrancy. Far more likely to be the critical mass of relatively affluent population I think. Also the form of democracy that is practised in the US basically makes it anyones RIGHT to fly an aircraft if they want and therefore the system is biassed that Australia it is deemed a priviledge at best but most of the time, for private ops anyway, a nuisance caused by silvertails with too much money.

Australia's GA industry is depressed for many reasons...just one of which is we're taxed into an early grave by those morons in CB, so many people just don't have the spare cash to fly. Particularly when we, as an industry, have our coastline/watersports to compete with. 19 million odd people just can't spawn as many aeroplane nuts as 260 million!!

But to the subject.

Dick has made claims of 70 million annual can this be...he's not telling and no-one else seems to be able to fathom where they are either. VFR aircraft already use the system (mostly) free anyway...and in my opinion there are so few VFR aircraft airborne AND going somewhere far enough to warrant the term cross country that if they were included in the system as if IFR in terms of service it would not be significant.


It should be self evident that excluding, even a small part of the traffic, from the system is going to be less safe.

The Class E procedures are a classic example...VFR aircraft, unless in receipt of RIS, should monitor Class G area freq. VFR aircraft don't require a clearance in Class E but IFR do, unless operating VFR before an IFR 'pickup'.

While the IFR aircraft in the same airspace are on a different freq!

Tell me how any sane person can believe that is a good idea!! It's analogous to some drivers being allowed to drive at night without headlights. It might work if no-one ever needed to turn right across the flow of traffic.

While we are at it lets remove all the frequency boxes from the charts so the pilot will have to look up an a list to find the frequency he/she needs....great idea that one!!

VFR pilots, where possible, to avoid published IFR routes...How? Show me some routes between airfields that don't have IFR published routes.

CAR 163A is a crock.

Simpler yet...a significant proportion of the price of fuel is tax of one kind or another. I'm already paying for the service and I demand value for my money!

That does not mean I expect to be able to charge willy nilly and operate within/ in close proximity to major airports, like Sydney, with 30 seconds notice. As a VFR user it is my responibility to fit into a system which exists for IFR users who are operating commercially. Not theirs to fit in with me.

I think the claimed savings are BS.

I think the NAS is less safe for no good reason.

I think DS is, while probably well intentioned, totally misguided.

I don't care if the Kings have flown here once or 5 times...they are not qualified to be employed by ASA/CASA as roving ambassadors for a bad idea badly implemented. We are NOT getting the US system we are getting a cherry picked retarded cousin.

What's really sickening is the whole airspace thing is really dogshit simple.

Class A/B/C/D/GAAP remains as is. 30nm MBZs around airfields that warrant it, 15nm CTAFs everywhere else.

Everything else is OCTA...Class G/F if you must.

If you're VFR you fit into the IFR system if above 5000'. Free!!!

If you're travelling more than 50nm/in/out of CTA you put in a plan. It's not hard fer crissake...1x 2 minute phone call gets me out of YBCG VFR. For long distance flights a full flight plan is the absolute minimum preparation you should be doing anyway...doesn't take much more effort to hit 'submit'. Full reporting ensures attention to navigation, fuel planning, etc. It makes it more likely that a pilot will actually read notams/weather etc. It's all there free via the WWW...any pilots/flying schools/charter companies out there who are not online?


Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2003, 19:46
  #11 (permalink)  
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Have to agree with Chimbu - lurve your work

I would like to know who, other than Uncle Dick, is 'crying out' for the NAS system?

And if they save X $millions what benefit will that provide any of the users? Call me crazy but I am NOT predicting ANY reduction to any aspect of operating ANY aircraft due to the introduction of NAS.

Except maybe an Agusta 109 ....
flightfocus is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2003, 03:31
  #12 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
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To answer your questions Manwell.

Talking to ATC/other aircraft lets you know when/where to be looking out for traffic. I can assure you your eyes are not near good enough.

I honestly do believe that our traffic levels are low enough to allow everyone to participate. GA annual hours are way down on what it was in the late 70s early 80s. Places like BK are a ghost town compared to when I was learning there in 80-83.

'You don't mind relying on a third party to do things as critical as
looking out for you.' Sorry Manwell...emotive rubbish

We don't pay for it VFR and in the US they don't pay for it IFR either. I personally feel that for Private Ops IFR should be free as well...see my last post re fuel taxes that we currently pay. At what level user pays becomes appropriate is another question...given that the system exists only for reasons of commerce and has been paid for over and over again perhaps only Regional Airlines and above should pay modest airways charges.

Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2003, 08:00
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Fair argument, and it sounds better without the resume (I am sooooo tired of old men and their type endorsements!!!!).

VFR above 5000 for free??? Are you suggesting VFR should pay??? I hope not, gets back to the 'gods of the sky and their personal airspace' argument that is bound to get me breaking many Woomeri rules of engagement.

I still don't see your point on safety. What is the difference now???

snarek is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2003, 09:08
  #14 (permalink)  
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You've probably just hit the nail on the head Chuck, and please don't call my post about "lookout" emotive rubbish. Very well constructed argument throughout the rest of your post though.

There is a fundamental shift in attitude required for people to accept the concept of looking out by using the radio. In IMC this is necessary, but why force users to do this in VMC?

The nail you've just hit is $$$$$. When it costs us personally, we start to expect value. This is the essential difference between IFR and VFR, inasmuch as most IFR are commercial and most VFR are private. And commercial can pass the cost on to the pax/payer.

I think that this is the reason why Dick chose to embrace user pays, in order to make people realize the prohibitive cost of the very labour-intensive system that was in place, and thereby put pressure on the bureaucracy to cut the waste.

Unfortunately, he didn't account for the highly tuned survival instinct of the Public Servant Bureaucrat. I think Dick's concept is sound, and his intentions honourable, it's just the machinations of the public service have been against him and for them. They think that lower costs for aviation = less jobs for them, and less power. Quite understandable really, at least in the short term.

I would agree that it will take a lot more than just the NAS to revitalize aviation in Australia, but it's a start. The start of every long journey is the first step.


I really didn't answer roach's big question. How will the NAS improve safety?

I'm sure that this will get Chuck going, but here it is.

Let's say that you're a First Officer on a multi-crew jet and a particularly individualistic captain decides to completely discount your abilities. While on approach to SY, you spot a flock of birds on a colllision course, he doesn't see them because he's the pilot flying, on an ILS approach. You alert him to the birds and call for an immediate pullup, until past the flock. He rejects your call, because it would spoil his approach.

At present, there isn't the flexibility in the airspace system to enable ATC to allow pilots to sight and avoid traffic in Primary CTR's. However, the safety case is much more than this.

First, let's start with a definition of airmanship. " The SafeB]and[/B] Efficient operation of an aircraft, both in the air and on the ground."

Now, let's qualify that statement with this, "Anything that does not demonstrably increase safety and efficiency, actually detracts from it."

This statement needs some explanation. Let's say you decide that the safest car in the world is a Volvo. Very expensive, but you decide that your safety is worth any price. The only problem is that you aren't a competent driver. Can't handle an emergency, don't have the faintest idea about what goes on under the bonnet, but knows the road rules back to front.

In this situation, we could accept that the money would be better spent on driver training. So spending the money on a new Volvo actually detracts from true safety since there is now less focus on the factor that has the potential to have the greatest impact on safety, ie. driver skill.

Now, the pilot is in fact the weakest link in the accident chain. Most people accept that a well trained pilot is the greatest safety device you can have in an aircraft. To truly accept this fact though is to accept the terrible responsibility that goes along with it. YOU, as PIC, are RESPONSIBLE for YOUR OWN SAFETY.

Our society has come to prefer the concept that third parties are better placed to do things for them, even though they are removed from the implications of their actions. ie. Don't get hurt if they get it wrong. Believe it or not, this concept has been very cleverly implanted in our minds by the same bureaucrats who have such a highly evolved survival instinct, for some reason that you may be able to deduce...

The BASI report on the "Limitations of the See-and-Avoid Principle initiated the concept in aviation, and the fact that it benefitted the majority of airspace users, ie. Commercial Aviation, at no cost to them, or private users either at that time, ensured that the flaws in the concept were perpetuated.

Chuck, I'd love to piece by piece disect the argument put forward in the BASI report, but I can't afford the time. Just get yourself a copy, if you haven't already got one, and consider their arguments critically. Some of it is fact, and the rest is nothing more than disingenuous opinion intended more as an official justification for ATC than true safety.

Lookout is emphasised during ab-initio training as the primary Airmanship factor, yet BASI suggests that poor lookout is not a sign of 'poor airmanship'. The report is dishonest intellectualism.

I must admit that this will be a difficult concept to get into your mind clearly, but once it's clear, it's really quite simple. By inferring that ATC will ensure separation from other aircraft, this actually detracts from your safety because you, as PIC will now think that the responsibility of lookout is really with someone else.

How many Loss of Separation incidents have you seen that crucifies the appropriate ATC officer? Not the PIC's problem anymore. This is good for Airline Pilots. No cost to them, permits them to fly without looking out the window, and they don't get into trouble if their pax can see another plane out their window.

Have a mid-air, and it's the controller's responsibility. And even they will be able to escape uscathed with a good lawyer. Ever heard the tape, "What goes up must come down."? Spoken by an ex-pilot ATC in the UK. Puts the whole thing in perspective.

So, in short. The NAS will be safer simply because it places more of the responsibility for separation on the PIC when in VMC. After all, he has the best view in this particular house of cards. The good news is that this will enable greater flexibility and much greater traffic handling capacity by ATC who will be able to utilize the eyes and abilities of the crews of aircraft. It will also enable ATC to focus the resources most on the areas where it can be proven they are most needed.

This is just one small step on the way to rationalising the industry, ie. ensuring that rational thought is the primary determinant when making safety policy. Emotion must not be completely discounted, just put in perspective, as any respnsible parent does when their child expresses an irrational fear of the dark.

At present, the goernment seem more inclined to play on our emotions to ensure less scrutiny of their actions and more compliance with unjust social policy. Thankfully, the implementation of the NAS does not fit in this category. In fact, they seem to be acting more like the responsible parent with the implementation of this policy.

Do you recognize the fundamental difference here Chuck? I believe it is important.

Good Day sirs and madames, and thanks for your responses,

Life's a bitch, and then you fly.
Manwell is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2003, 20:07
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Albany, West Australia
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'Everyone wants progress - but nobody wants change'

anon saying, but it fits here

poteroo is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2003, 07:03
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Well during the roadshows Mike Smith seemed to have changed tack from what I percieved his views on ADSB to be when he was at Avalon.

ADSB will give you a little black box which will tell you where all the traffic is around you.

This will be a huge saving for the airlines because they don't have to pay to upgrade cluncky old primary radars outside of CTAs.

But it could be argued that ADSB will do away with the need for some separation and thus a few jobs (amking aviation cheaper and thus creating jobs elsewhere). But the aforementioned 'save my job' mentality will come into play around ADSB.

That is why we, as industry players, need to get involved and tell Govt to support the ADSB project abnd to support Govt funded ADSB boxes in EVERY GA aircraft.

snarek is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2003, 07:44
  #17 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SWP
Posts: 4,620

I think you oughta stay away from using 2 crew analogies.

I completetly agree with what you say about bureaucratic survival instincts.

I think you will find the system very much has the flexibility to see and avoid in it via TCAS climbs/descents or visual seperation during seperation breakdowns, rare as they are in radar environments. That is not to say that it is, or should be, the primary seperation technique...which you seem to be suggesting?

"Anything that does not demonstrably increase safety and efficiency, actually detracts from it."

Please explain to us how the Class E procedures, part of your much beloved NAS after all, fit in with this statement....which I agree with BTW.

Your analogy of the Vovo driver is a very good one. As someone who has done my fair share of training and checking over the years, including jets, I can attest to the fact that the standards of freshly minted CPLs are dropping alarmingly...what PPLs must be like, on average, I know not and do not wish to think about. I have said for a long time that NAS is fiddling while Rome burns. Pilot licencing standards are a lot more in dire need of addressing than an airspace system which aint broke!!!

I think you will find that the see and avoid system has been around since Adam was a boyscout and Pontius was a pilat...the BASI reports merely highlights the fact that it is not without limitations...particularly as aircraft have become faster and the skies a little more crowded since the 30s. No-one, least of all me, is suggesting that see and avoid is not a pilots responsibility and is not part of that which we label good airmanship...HOWEVER it's not what CASA/AsA/ARG/DS are now insisting it should be, i.e. a panacea for all ills and a way for the above alphabet groups to reduce levels of service. ALL BASI are saying when the make the statement that 'poor' lookout does not equal 'poor airmanship' is that in todays more complex aircraft and airspace it is unreasonable to label a pilot at fault if, in the few seconds it takes for a midair to happen, he is not looking at the particular piece of sky where the threat aircraft was. He may even be looking up a frequency which used to be on the chart he has neatly folded on the coaming. The human eye is a very fallible tool..I have had two heart stopping near midairs over the last 23 years and I was looking out...believe me!!!

See and Avoid/airmanship is not merely looking out the window, it's more about situational awareness. Knowing where an aircraft was, is going, and at what altitude gives you the maximum chance of seeing and avoiding the aircraft...of knowing when your attention MUST be outside the cockpit. Clearly that level of awareness is not going to be possible all the time (in Class G airspace for instance) but it should be available in places like Class E, D and around airfields with a mix of IFR RPT/VFR traffic.

I believe you're a little nieve if you really believe that placing all responsibility for separation on pilot's eyesight and the hope that they will be looking in the right piece of sky in the right few seconds, purely by fluke, will allow greater airspace capacity and flexibility.

Many years ago two people I knew, one a great friend and one of my early instructors, the other an examiner of airman who had been CFI at the Royal Aero Club for 26 years prior to joining CAA (and who did my initial IR flight test) were killed when the CAA V35 Bonanza they were in was involved in a mid air with a glider on departure. they were hit from above and behind removing the tail and they spun to earth. I knew both these individuals as thorough professionals of the highest order and they would have had both sets of eyes on full alert departing a Glider field...but it still happened.

I have put in a request to Air BP, as an account holder, for a breakdown of what percentage of the $1.08 odd I pay/lt for avgas is Govt taxes. I will be surprised if it's less than 30+% plus GST. This user is well and truly paying when you consider that probably $30 an hour of my direct operating costs are going to the Govt in tax of one form or another yet I'm told I must pay a user fee if I want to fly IFR Or that by requesting the levels of service that go with IFR even though I may be VFR, on that route segment, that I'm getting something for free. really


Ps Manwell...carefull you don't allow your posts to become much more condescending, you might end up breaking your own rules

Edit for snarek's last post.

I agree completely re ADSB...but I bet, despite the taxes we pay, ADSB won't be a gift from the Govt.

Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Sep 2003 at 12:45.
Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2003, 08:08
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 70

I love the rubbish that is being generated in regard to ADS-B.

Mike Smiff like many of those commenting on ADS-B wouldn’t know sh!t from brown clay about how it works, the limitations to use, the savings (?), the costs or anything else for that matter. The trouble is it gets regurgitated by those who think he knows what he is on about. Why do you think he has changed his tune? Because it suits today’s agenda!
Next thing will be he or Dick will be claiming any savings as part of those that NAS provided.

Just for starters it will NOT replace primary radar. It will NOT provide traffic information to anybody except ATC and those that outlay substantial sums on CDTI equipment and I would suspect that if the government of the day does outlay the 100+Million to subsidise fitment (broadcast only) they will be seeking money back in increased charges. It could be argued that it may increase jobs because it now provides radar like coverage where previously it was unviable to provide a service.

While lobbying the Government would you also support it’s use by airport owners for making sure they capture those that use their facilities, Navaids or by CASA/AA for preventing/identifying VCAs? Personally I would but I am sure we will get the usual bleating from those of the paranoid persuasion!

I wholeheartedly support ADS-B. It is a wonderful thing, but there are many issues to be resolved before we are even halfway close to full scale deployment.
Neddy is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2003, 09:36
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: FNQ
Posts: 429

It will NOT provide traffic information to anybody except ATC and those that outlay substantial sums on CDTI equipment

CDTI does not need to be that expensive, it requires logging the squitter info against a known position from a GPS. Since the GPS has to be there (one way or another) to code the squitter then CDTI will not be expensive.

I would suspect that if the government of the day does outlay the 100+Million to subsidise fitment (broadcast only) they will be seeking money back in increased charges
The Government, Airservices actually, has to decide whether to replace all those rotating hub RADARS or go for ADSB. If we did away with ALL RADARS outside of the primaries in the CTA's it would roughly work out. BUT, ADSB doesn't need land, ADSB doesn't need rotating head maintenance, ADSB doesn't need generatot backup (Solar and batteries will do).

The savings on those who need and thus cause primary control and who bleat for DTI (Q, VB and regionals) will (if passed on) be huge. They could fund more 'area' jobs for controllers. They could fund price reductions. It will make IFR mixed with VFR safer accross the whole country (eventually).

But I bet you this. If Q, VB et al try to get it mandated with an 'owner pays' mentality they won't get ADSB. There is no firm AOPA policy on this, yet. But if Govt or Airlines try to make GA pay ADSB will die like mandated ELTs. And I will help kill it (despite loving ADSB to death!).

I think however the ADSB project team are heaps smarter than that and they have done their sums.

snarek is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2003, 11:09
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 108
And so it begins again......

Geeeezzz I love PPRuNe...
marshall is offline  

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