My chances for a U.S Major with a Green Card
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My chances for a U.S Major with a Green Card
Hi everyone. I and my wife have applied for a Green Card for 2016 and we are supposed to receive results in 2 months.
Speaking hypothetically, if i receive a GC what are my chances to join a U.S. major? If you join one, do you start with the smallest aircraft they have or does you prior experience is counted somewhere?(like if you have hours on B737NG or B777 do you start from 737 no matter what?)
And the last question is; how much would it cost to me to get an FAA ATP or CPL whichever is necessary conversion with my type rating on it?
I am a turkish citizen and a university graduate of software engineering. I can speak fluent english, german and of course my own language
I have a JAA ATPL with 2600 hours on the type of B737NG and it will be over 3200-3300 until the end of this year. Before that i only had the flight school hours just adequate for an JAA ATPL. 31 years old and married. Pretty good communication skills.
Speaking hypothetically, if i receive a GC what are my chances to join a U.S. major? If you join one, do you start with the smallest aircraft they have or does you prior experience is counted somewhere?(like if you have hours on B737NG or B777 do you start from 737 no matter what?)
And the last question is; how much would it cost to me to get an FAA ATP or CPL whichever is necessary conversion with my type rating on it?
I am a turkish citizen and a university graduate of software engineering. I can speak fluent english, german and of course my own language
I have a JAA ATPL with 2600 hours on the type of B737NG and it will be over 3200-3300 until the end of this year. Before that i only had the flight school hours just adequate for an JAA ATPL. 31 years old and married. Pretty good communication skills.
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Don't have all of the answers but here is a stab at some of them.
If started at any major airline, you would start at the bottom of the seniority list and most likely on the smaller equipment. Having said that I believe some new hires at Delta have gone directly to the Intl 767 but that is pretty rare. Being a new hire and not getting much flying (stick time), is probably not in your best interest.
As for the cost of a FAA conversion I believe you would need a full 737 or 777 course just as if you had never flown it before. Some training organizations offer a shortened type rating course and give some credit for previous experience. Regardless prepare for the worst. The 737 can probably be done for under $8,000 but the 777 would be significantly higher and in the range of $16,000. I'm sure others here can share their experience and costs associated with this training.
I know in the past that some airlines did honor the green card but not all of them did. 911 may have diminished that, I don't know.
Good luck
If started at any major airline, you would start at the bottom of the seniority list and most likely on the smaller equipment. Having said that I believe some new hires at Delta have gone directly to the Intl 767 but that is pretty rare. Being a new hire and not getting much flying (stick time), is probably not in your best interest.
As for the cost of a FAA conversion I believe you would need a full 737 or 777 course just as if you had never flown it before. Some training organizations offer a shortened type rating course and give some credit for previous experience. Regardless prepare for the worst. The 737 can probably be done for under $8,000 but the 777 would be significantly higher and in the range of $16,000. I'm sure others here can share their experience and costs associated with this training.
I know in the past that some airlines did honor the green card but not all of them did. 911 may have diminished that, I don't know.
Good luck
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spooky thank you very much for the fast response 
Well i didn't know that there is a difference between a U.S. citizen pilot and a green card pilot. Actually i did but i didn't think that there would be this great difference.
I will keep waiting for the next posts from anyone.
Well i didn't know that there is a difference between a U.S. citizen pilot and a green card pilot. Actually i did but i didn't think that there would be this great difference.
I will keep waiting for the next posts from anyone.
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Ok, to clarify, for a US employer not to honor a 'Green Card' for employment is ILLEGAL. With a US Green Card you CAN work for any airline in the USA. I know some may make life a little harder as further checks are needed if you have a Green Card, but they cannot deny you a job based on the fact that you have a Green Card. If you can prove that they denied you a job based on the fact that you have a Green Card, you can rightfully so, sue them.
Ok, chance are that the majors will not look at you. There are 'published minimums' and then supply/demand of what is in the market. The unsaid absolute minimum that is needed is 1000 hours Turbine PIC before the US Majors will entertain you. Airlines like United have advertized 350 TT for a very, very long time. How many people got in with 350 TT? Yes, exactly.
The conversion to the FAA ticket will be a non-event. The cheapest way will be is to do an ATP checkride on a multi piston. That will give you the FAA ATPL that you'll need. As for the 737 type rating? Well, why bother with spending the money on it unless you have a job on your plate (which while I won't say never, but is highly unlikely).
Unfortunately, a US regional job is the most likely with your qualifications. They'll snap you up yesterday. They are desperate. But with that said, you'll be waiting a long, long time to move on to the Majors.
I have many, many friends at the Regionals who've been in the Regional glut for between 8-12 years. They've applied to all majors. Only one has been offered an interview. The truth is, there are many, many applicants at the Regional level. And not as many jobs at the Majors (in comparison). The majors can (rightfully so) be choosy and pick the best of the military/regional/corporate world/overseas US expat market.
Ok, chance are that the majors will not look at you. There are 'published minimums' and then supply/demand of what is in the market. The unsaid absolute minimum that is needed is 1000 hours Turbine PIC before the US Majors will entertain you. Airlines like United have advertized 350 TT for a very, very long time. How many people got in with 350 TT? Yes, exactly.
The conversion to the FAA ticket will be a non-event. The cheapest way will be is to do an ATP checkride on a multi piston. That will give you the FAA ATPL that you'll need. As for the 737 type rating? Well, why bother with spending the money on it unless you have a job on your plate (which while I won't say never, but is highly unlikely).
Unfortunately, a US regional job is the most likely with your qualifications. They'll snap you up yesterday. They are desperate. But with that said, you'll be waiting a long, long time to move on to the Majors.
I have many, many friends at the Regionals who've been in the Regional glut for between 8-12 years. They've applied to all majors. Only one has been offered an interview. The truth is, there are many, many applicants at the Regional level. And not as many jobs at the Majors (in comparison). The majors can (rightfully so) be choosy and pick the best of the military/regional/corporate world/overseas US expat market.
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BritishGuy thank you!
You cleared up many things for me. However i didn't get the main point of what i am missing on the qualifications part. Am i missing flight time on the jet? I mean i can apply after i fill in 5,000 hours on B737NG. It will take me about 2 years from now. However i did not get exactly what they are looking for. I am pretty qualified on my type(not even a negative scratch on my pilot proficiency reports of the simulator check both done for operator proficiency check and line proficiency checks), a university degree on engineering, not so old(31), clever and willing to work my butt off. What else are they looking for? Am i missing a point here?
edit: Sorry i forgot to add; with the flight school hours my total time is 2800 hours.
You cleared up many things for me. However i didn't get the main point of what i am missing on the qualifications part. Am i missing flight time on the jet? I mean i can apply after i fill in 5,000 hours on B737NG. It will take me about 2 years from now. However i did not get exactly what they are looking for. I am pretty qualified on my type(not even a negative scratch on my pilot proficiency reports of the simulator check both done for operator proficiency check and line proficiency checks), a university degree on engineering, not so old(31), clever and willing to work my butt off. What else are they looking for? Am i missing a point here?
edit: Sorry i forgot to add; with the flight school hours my total time is 2800 hours.
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Here is the deal right now, some majors right now have lowered the hiring minimums, for example 2500 total time and 1000 turbine time. The only guys I know right now who are getting the call for interviews at the majors are either coming from the military or else they have good connections inside the company. Having said that, I still know plenty of guys (who even have the military background and internal connections) and they still are waiting for a call. If a company such as United is trying to hire 400 pilots this year but they have 12000 applications on file, it is a long wait to get an interview.
I have plenty of friends who meet or exceed the requirements and have been waiting quite awhile for a call. I know several guys who have gone to Frontier Airlines with just turboprop time. Some of the feedback that my friends have received from the airline recruiters is to continuously attend job fairs and to update their applications monthly to show interest. Keep in mind, there are literally 12000-15,000 pilots who meet the minimum requirements for hiring at most of the major airlines, so you will just be another application to add to the pile.
At the regional level, you just need the minimum requirements and a pulse to get hired right now.
I have plenty of friends who meet or exceed the requirements and have been waiting quite awhile for a call. I know several guys who have gone to Frontier Airlines with just turboprop time. Some of the feedback that my friends have received from the airline recruiters is to continuously attend job fairs and to update their applications monthly to show interest. Keep in mind, there are literally 12000-15,000 pilots who meet the minimum requirements for hiring at most of the major airlines, so you will just be another application to add to the pile.
At the regional level, you just need the minimum requirements and a pulse to get hired right now.
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James331 and zondaracer thank you very much for your contributions
Well this means that it is not just you attributes, but also a little luck and patience. I am going to keep filling in my hours. And maybe during the process i will go to a Middle East country and type in some wide body hours. Maybe that can help me a little in the process. I will be joining one of the ME company when i will have 3,000 hours on the jet type and can log in 1,500-2,000 hours on wide body in 3 years. So this will be total 4,500-5,000 hours on the type of narrow and wide body jets. Maybe that can increase my chances.
And zondaracer;
Minimum requirements and a pulse made me laugh so hard, my wife came into the room to check if i am ok lol
Well this means that it is not just you attributes, but also a little luck and patience. I am going to keep filling in my hours. And maybe during the process i will go to a Middle East country and type in some wide body hours. Maybe that can help me a little in the process. I will be joining one of the ME company when i will have 3,000 hours on the jet type and can log in 1,500-2,000 hours on wide body in 3 years. So this will be total 4,500-5,000 hours on the type of narrow and wide body jets. Maybe that can increase my chances.
And zondaracer;
Minimum requirements and a pulse made me laugh so hard, my wife came into the room to check if i am ok lol
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I think the one major thing you may be missing here isn't the amount of flight time you have. Whether it be jet time on the A-380/B777, but the one thing most US majors seem to be gung-ho on is turbine PIC time. They want turbine PIC time. If you don't have it then I think it's safe to say (though not certain) that a major airline will not look at you.
Don't forget that there are US Citizens (who they don't have to conduct the same Green Card checks as on) that the airlines will rather favor. Secondly, there are many, many, many US regional captains waiting for the call who have many, many thousands of turbine PIC.
So to make sure you're competitive, you'll probably need the 1000 hours TURBINE PIC.
The US aviation market isn't as rosy as people like to make out. There are people being hired in the majors, but there are so many, so many qualified candidates, that there just aren't enough spots for them at the majors as yet. What will happen in the future? Who knows, nobody has a crystal ball. So many people talk about retirement figures and all. All I say is 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'. Good luck with your venture.
Don't forget that there are US Citizens (who they don't have to conduct the same Green Card checks as on) that the airlines will rather favor. Secondly, there are many, many, many US regional captains waiting for the call who have many, many thousands of turbine PIC.
So to make sure you're competitive, you'll probably need the 1000 hours TURBINE PIC.
The US aviation market isn't as rosy as people like to make out. There are people being hired in the majors, but there are so many, so many qualified candidates, that there just aren't enough spots for them at the majors as yet. What will happen in the future? Who knows, nobody has a crystal ball. So many people talk about retirement figures and all. All I say is 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'. Good luck with your venture.
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Basic minimum requirements for USA cargo air carriers are same as major USA passenger airlines - Flying a "cargo" airliner with FedEx or UPS is not considered to be "second class" pilot - FedEx has about the highest paid pilots of any airline in USA -
Although I have been a passenger airline pilot for most of my career, I flew a few months as 747 captain for Cargolux in 1992 - It was the nicest contract I ever got in my life, and they treated their pilots better than any airline I worked with -
I was a Pan Am pilot and lost my job with the bankruptcy in DEC 1991 and could not even find a decent job in USA despite my experience on 707-727-747 - All I got offered was to be a flight engineer 727 with Delta and be paid as a newly hired pilot -
You want to work in USA...? - You are making a mistake - Me... I left USA in 1992 and never get back there - There are decent direct entry captain contract pilot jobs everywhere in the world, this with better pay and benefits - I am retired now and live overseas...
Although I have been a passenger airline pilot for most of my career, I flew a few months as 747 captain for Cargolux in 1992 - It was the nicest contract I ever got in my life, and they treated their pilots better than any airline I worked with -
I was a Pan Am pilot and lost my job with the bankruptcy in DEC 1991 and could not even find a decent job in USA despite my experience on 707-727-747 - All I got offered was to be a flight engineer 727 with Delta and be paid as a newly hired pilot -
You want to work in USA...? - You are making a mistake - Me... I left USA in 1992 and never get back there - There are decent direct entry captain contract pilot jobs everywhere in the world, this with better pay and benefits - I am retired now and live overseas...
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I have a non american friend who got the green card by marriage.
Before getting married,he flight instructed in the USA,became an instructor,then moved on to freight in Cessna 402 while on work sponsored visa,became an FAA check Airman on the 402,then an Fo on RJ and was taken by United Airlines on Airbus at about 24 years old.
All is possible....this is America after all
Though,if i were you id work for the PIC time first...thats the best job insurance youll ever get.
Good luck!
Before getting married,he flight instructed in the USA,became an instructor,then moved on to freight in Cessna 402 while on work sponsored visa,became an FAA check Airman on the 402,then an Fo on RJ and was taken by United Airlines on Airbus at about 24 years old.
All is possible....this is America after all
Though,if i were you id work for the PIC time first...thats the best job insurance youll ever get.
Good luck!
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Just to clear it up,
PICUS(PIC Under Supervision) time doesn't count, right?
In Turkey;
As long as you do the fuel calculations, check the flight plans, do the briefing and fly the leg from off-block to on-block you can write it as PICUS time with the permission of the captain and signature of him/her on the remarks section of the logbook. Also recorded under PIC time(not the Co-Pilot section).
PICUS(PIC Under Supervision) time doesn't count, right?
In Turkey;
As long as you do the fuel calculations, check the flight plans, do the briefing and fly the leg from off-block to on-block you can write it as PICUS time with the permission of the captain and signature of him/her on the remarks section of the logbook. Also recorded under PIC time(not the Co-Pilot section).
Last edited by foswillruletheworld; 30th Mar 2015 at 18:25. Reason: completion
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You need Captain time. No PICUS, PF, pilot handling, etc. Did you sign for the airplane? Are YOU the boss? If yes it's PIC. If you're not the Captain it's not the PIC for the requirements.
14,000 applicants for major airlines right now. Probably 10,000 "highly qualified". That's 1000 hrs TPIC(turbine PIC) or more. Midpack candidate at job fairs probably has 6,000 hrs and 2,000 hrs TPIC. 3,000 hrs TT, and zero TPIC, is in the bottom 5%(?) of the applicants. Some do get hired at that experience level but they typically have additional areas on their resume that helps.
Getting more FO time on the 737, 777, Axxx, isn't going to get you higher on the list of qualified candidates. Upgrading on turbine equipment will. U.S Part 121 experience helps.
30-40% of the highly qualified will get hired this year. Many of the 'not highly qualified' are upgrading as the top 30-40% get hired. So in a year or two they'll transition to the 'highly qualified' group. In time the qualifications will lower but it probably is at least a couple of years away.
The higher rated the job the greater level of competition(in general). Atlas Air probably isn't, or won't in the future, attracting the candidates going to the major U.S. airlines and UPS and FedEx.
A year or two ago guys might be trying to get a decent flying job but now guys are getting 3, 4, or more job offers. The top jobs are still hard to get but with 3,000 new hires at the major airlines it's generating movement across the U.S. pilot industry.
Your odds of getting hired right now are very low. To the level that I'd almost guarantee it's not happening. The U.S. industry is set up differently than it is overseas. At 31, if a U.S. major is your goal, your best option is to position yourself for 3-7 years down the road. Get on with a regional that's expanding and hope to upgrade in 2-4 years. By then, with the pilot retirements increasing dramatically, your resume without PIC time might have been selected. With a year or two of U.S. Part 121 TPIC time you'll be much better positioned to get hired. Or you might get hired by a smaller U.S. airline, like Spirit(fast upgrades <5 yrs) or JetBlue. But you won't get TPIC time at JB or Spirit which right now is probably the biggest weakness in your resume to get on with one of the U.S. Big 3(4).
14,000 applicants for major airlines right now. Probably 10,000 "highly qualified". That's 1000 hrs TPIC(turbine PIC) or more. Midpack candidate at job fairs probably has 6,000 hrs and 2,000 hrs TPIC. 3,000 hrs TT, and zero TPIC, is in the bottom 5%(?) of the applicants. Some do get hired at that experience level but they typically have additional areas on their resume that helps.
Getting more FO time on the 737, 777, Axxx, isn't going to get you higher on the list of qualified candidates. Upgrading on turbine equipment will. U.S Part 121 experience helps.
30-40% of the highly qualified will get hired this year. Many of the 'not highly qualified' are upgrading as the top 30-40% get hired. So in a year or two they'll transition to the 'highly qualified' group. In time the qualifications will lower but it probably is at least a couple of years away.
The higher rated the job the greater level of competition(in general). Atlas Air probably isn't, or won't in the future, attracting the candidates going to the major U.S. airlines and UPS and FedEx.
A year or two ago guys might be trying to get a decent flying job but now guys are getting 3, 4, or more job offers. The top jobs are still hard to get but with 3,000 new hires at the major airlines it's generating movement across the U.S. pilot industry.
Your odds of getting hired right now are very low. To the level that I'd almost guarantee it's not happening. The U.S. industry is set up differently than it is overseas. At 31, if a U.S. major is your goal, your best option is to position yourself for 3-7 years down the road. Get on with a regional that's expanding and hope to upgrade in 2-4 years. By then, with the pilot retirements increasing dramatically, your resume without PIC time might have been selected. With a year or two of U.S. Part 121 TPIC time you'll be much better positioned to get hired. Or you might get hired by a smaller U.S. airline, like Spirit(fast upgrades <5 yrs) or JetBlue. But you won't get TPIC time at JB or Spirit which right now is probably the biggest weakness in your resume to get on with one of the U.S. Big 3(4).
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First of all, great to see a BelArgUSA post. Welcome back!
Google Airline Plot Central and you get a feel for who is getting hired these days at the majors, regionals and other operators. Pretty good information.
Google Airline Plot Central and you get a feel for who is getting hired these days at the majors, regionals and other operators. Pretty good information.
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Couple more things...
You mentioned FedEx. They have a US residency requirement. You must have lived in the USA for at least 4.5 years in the past 5 years. So you can forget about FedEx for now.
Additionally, nobody has mentioned volunteerism. Many of the major airlines are looking for individuals with standout résumés/CVs, and many look for volunteer work that you do for your community. Just having flight time won't cut it right now if you want to go to a place like United or Delta etc.
You mentioned FedEx. They have a US residency requirement. You must have lived in the USA for at least 4.5 years in the past 5 years. So you can forget about FedEx for now.
Additionally, nobody has mentioned volunteerism. Many of the major airlines are looking for individuals with standout résumés/CVs, and many look for volunteer work that you do for your community. Just having flight time won't cut it right now if you want to go to a place like United or Delta etc.
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@foswillruletheworld
Thought I'd share some info. I am a permanent resident and have a green card and been working in USA for a regional carrier for a year now.
First, the requirements on the website of airlines like Delta, United and American are not the requirements that will get you an interview. They are many things that they look for besides meeting the minimum requirement- reference letters from pilots of their own company, meeting recruiters at job fairs, and competitiveness with other applicants, contacts you have etc.
Being a green card holder doesn't make it difficult but makes it more challenging to get hired. Because you need a passport without any restriction on travel. But that shouldn't be a problem with Turkish passport.
And on an average people who get hired at major airlines are Military, Air Force and Navy pilots who have 1500 or more hours. If you have civilian experience you can be looking at anywhere from 5000-10,000 hrs of total time. Average of about 6500 hours.
Having wide body experience doesn't make much of a difference. The pilot who has 6000 hrs on a CRJ/ERJ has similar chances as guys with experience on 777 with similar hours. Met a guy who got hired at delta recently. He flew regional airline for 5 years then another 5-6 years at emirates on 777 and finally got a call for interview. He had 7-8000 hrs I believe. And you need 1000 hrs pic on multi engine jet for a civilian pilot. Some FO do get hired without PIC time but that's rare and ones who have great connections with the company.
And in USA they is regional airlines model, which not a lotta pilots know about. The flying is outsourced to other companies to fly for delta, United and American airlines. They fly the 50-76 seater CRJ/ERJ jets and some fly the turbo props. They fly on contract for the major airline. Getting hired at regional airline would be easy with your hours. However the pay is not even close to the majors.
And last about your green card, good luck. But if you have a green card, you need to reside in USA for a good time and getting a job outside USA would be challenging. Coz if you travel out of USA and stay out of USA for longer period of times, then your green card can be cancelled. The period can be anywhere from couple of months to 6 months on a regular basis.
And my advise, I'm not sure which airline you work for, but if you are not happy with pay then my advise would be to go to Middle East, you will make a lot more money. You will work more of course but if you plan on moving to USA I'd plan on starting at a regional airline and look at about $20,000 to $24,000.
Most probably you can make a whole lot more with your software engineering degree. But then flying part time is challenging, but something can always work out.
Thought I'd share some info. I am a permanent resident and have a green card and been working in USA for a regional carrier for a year now.
First, the requirements on the website of airlines like Delta, United and American are not the requirements that will get you an interview. They are many things that they look for besides meeting the minimum requirement- reference letters from pilots of their own company, meeting recruiters at job fairs, and competitiveness with other applicants, contacts you have etc.
Being a green card holder doesn't make it difficult but makes it more challenging to get hired. Because you need a passport without any restriction on travel. But that shouldn't be a problem with Turkish passport.
And on an average people who get hired at major airlines are Military, Air Force and Navy pilots who have 1500 or more hours. If you have civilian experience you can be looking at anywhere from 5000-10,000 hrs of total time. Average of about 6500 hours.
Having wide body experience doesn't make much of a difference. The pilot who has 6000 hrs on a CRJ/ERJ has similar chances as guys with experience on 777 with similar hours. Met a guy who got hired at delta recently. He flew regional airline for 5 years then another 5-6 years at emirates on 777 and finally got a call for interview. He had 7-8000 hrs I believe. And you need 1000 hrs pic on multi engine jet for a civilian pilot. Some FO do get hired without PIC time but that's rare and ones who have great connections with the company.
And in USA they is regional airlines model, which not a lotta pilots know about. The flying is outsourced to other companies to fly for delta, United and American airlines. They fly the 50-76 seater CRJ/ERJ jets and some fly the turbo props. They fly on contract for the major airline. Getting hired at regional airline would be easy with your hours. However the pay is not even close to the majors.
And last about your green card, good luck. But if you have a green card, you need to reside in USA for a good time and getting a job outside USA would be challenging. Coz if you travel out of USA and stay out of USA for longer period of times, then your green card can be cancelled. The period can be anywhere from couple of months to 6 months on a regular basis.
And my advise, I'm not sure which airline you work for, but if you are not happy with pay then my advise would be to go to Middle East, you will make a lot more money. You will work more of course but if you plan on moving to USA I'd plan on starting at a regional airline and look at about $20,000 to $24,000.
Most probably you can make a whole lot more with your software engineering degree. But then flying part time is challenging, but something can always work out.
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I am illuminated. Thank you very much for your opinions and information. I have a better view now of how to do things in the U.S.
well I certainly am going to apply for the majors in the beginning but will not wait for a long time to join one of the regionals.
U.S. is in the place of aviation where my home country will be 25-30 years. It clearly won't be as easy to upgrade to the majors as it is in my country.
Any suggestions of regionals about the salary and fast upgrade to command?
well I certainly am going to apply for the majors in the beginning but will not wait for a long time to join one of the regionals.
U.S. is in the place of aviation where my home country will be 25-30 years. It clearly won't be as easy to upgrade to the majors as it is in my country.
Any suggestions of regionals about the salary and fast upgrade to command?