SWA lands at wrong airport.
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With modern technology available today I still cannot understand how an aircraft with more than 100 live and breathing people can miss a landing target by 7 miles.
This is not the length of a football field mind you, but rather the width of a medium sized city.
Are the navigational systems available on the flight deck really that bad or that inaccurate?
Or is it that they are simply ignored?
This is not the length of a football field mind you, but rather the width of a medium sized city.
Are the navigational systems available on the flight deck really that bad or that inaccurate?
Or is it that they are simply ignored?
Really? Because two so called experienced Pilots land their EFIS GPS equipped modern 737NG with two lovely big ND's at the wrong Airport. They must not have been trained to look at the Map during approaches ( visual or Instrument ) or to update and maintain the FMC.
Unacceptable.
SWA train and maintain their standards so they must also take responsibility for the error. They should be trained to update the Legs page to ensure it reflects what they are doing ( within reason, I'm not expecting waypoint building to design a visual approach ) and trained to expect their landing runway to be in front of them on the ND during approach!!
As I've said before even on a visual approach ( yes we still do quite a few all over the World ) we still have the approach ( ILS/RNAV/VOR ) selected so we get:-
1/ a missed approach in the box, yes it may not be the one ATC want you to fly off a visual but it's a start.
2/ distance to run
3/ electronic path info from the VNAV. ( depending on app selected and a/c type )
4/ SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
This is what I mean by Airline Culture. They obviously aren't training their crews to do this most basic of Airmanship stuff.
They obviously looked out the window and ignored the FMC. They probably didn't have a runway selected in the first place!!
Most basic of mistakes.
No excuses I'm afraid, if an Airline allows crews to make this mistake then obviously something is missing........
Unacceptable.
SWA train and maintain their standards so they must also take responsibility for the error. They should be trained to update the Legs page to ensure it reflects what they are doing ( within reason, I'm not expecting waypoint building to design a visual approach ) and trained to expect their landing runway to be in front of them on the ND during approach!!
As I've said before even on a visual approach ( yes we still do quite a few all over the World ) we still have the approach ( ILS/RNAV/VOR ) selected so we get:-
1/ a missed approach in the box, yes it may not be the one ATC want you to fly off a visual but it's a start.
2/ distance to run
3/ electronic path info from the VNAV. ( depending on app selected and a/c type )
4/ SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
This is what I mean by Airline Culture. They obviously aren't training their crews to do this most basic of Airmanship stuff.
They obviously looked out the window and ignored the FMC. They probably didn't have a runway selected in the first place!!
Most basic of mistakes.
No excuses I'm afraid, if an Airline allows crews to make this mistake then obviously something is missing........
Last edited by nitpicker330; 23rd Jan 2014 at 10:28.
The culture and mistake (error) based analyses in many posts might represent frustration of being unable to understand the factors contributing the incident, and therefore limiting opportunity to learn. It is unlikely that the precise aspects will be discoverable (not to exclude culture, etc); however, with some well-reasoned speculative analysis it might be possible to identify important ‘learning’ factors.
A contribution to this type of incident could be a ‘mental map-slip’. This is not a loss of positional awareness, just the wrong one, which neither pilot realised. So what else were they doing – mental focus, procedures, radio calls, checks, etc.
Technology is seen as a major benefit – EFIS map, but are the pitfalls and traps in this equipment identified, reported, or just glossed over – ‘it happen to me, a minor slip, it won’t happen again’ – weak safety reporting / dissemination. With EFIS map selected, was the range scale dictated by WXR or a Terrain display – marvellous aids to safety, but the scale might be inappropriate for the airfield position – it appears (mentally perceived) to be closer than it is; have we done this, and with visual confirmation bias to reinforce the positional picture, continue with the approach; - or we able to detect the ‘oversight’ in time, if so how.
Some forward thinking views on human behaviour; for both them and us.
“If we can understand how the participants’ knowledge, mindset, and goals guided their behavior, then we can see how they were vulnerable to breakdown given the demands of the situation they faced.”
“Typically hindsight bias makes it seem that participants failed to account for information or conditions that “should have been obvious” or behaved in ways that were inconsistent with the (now known to be) significant information. Possessing knowledge of the outcome, because of the hindsight bias, trivializes the situation confronting the practitioner and makes the “correct” choice seem crystal clear.”
“… the use of the term “error” is less revealing about the performance of workers than it is about ourselves as evaluators.”
“Fallibility has no bounds in a universe of multiple pressures, uncertainty, and finite resources.”
A contribution to this type of incident could be a ‘mental map-slip’. This is not a loss of positional awareness, just the wrong one, which neither pilot realised. So what else were they doing – mental focus, procedures, radio calls, checks, etc.
Technology is seen as a major benefit – EFIS map, but are the pitfalls and traps in this equipment identified, reported, or just glossed over – ‘it happen to me, a minor slip, it won’t happen again’ – weak safety reporting / dissemination. With EFIS map selected, was the range scale dictated by WXR or a Terrain display – marvellous aids to safety, but the scale might be inappropriate for the airfield position – it appears (mentally perceived) to be closer than it is; have we done this, and with visual confirmation bias to reinforce the positional picture, continue with the approach; - or we able to detect the ‘oversight’ in time, if so how.
Some forward thinking views on human behaviour; for both them and us.
“If we can understand how the participants’ knowledge, mindset, and goals guided their behavior, then we can see how they were vulnerable to breakdown given the demands of the situation they faced.”
“Typically hindsight bias makes it seem that participants failed to account for information or conditions that “should have been obvious” or behaved in ways that were inconsistent with the (now known to be) significant information. Possessing knowledge of the outcome, because of the hindsight bias, trivializes the situation confronting the practitioner and makes the “correct” choice seem crystal clear.”
“… the use of the term “error” is less revealing about the performance of workers than it is about ourselves as evaluators.”
“Fallibility has no bounds in a universe of multiple pressures, uncertainty, and finite resources.”
Thread Starter
Nitpicker
Do you even know what guidance SWA gives it crews with regard to visual approaches? If you're pointing your finger at the airline minus that knowledge, your speaking from a point of ignorance.
The airline provided them all the latest in terms of awareness, they obviously cocked it
Doesn't cost a thing to anonymously piss on SWA. A lot tougher however to provide a factual, data driven report on their guilt.
Do you even know what guidance SWA gives it crews with regard to visual approaches? If you're pointing your finger at the airline minus that knowledge, your speaking from a point of ignorance.
The airline provided them all the latest in terms of awareness, they obviously cocked it
Doesn't cost a thing to anonymously piss on SWA. A lot tougher however to provide a factual, data driven report on their guilt.
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Really? Because two so called experienced Pilots land their EFIS GPS equipped modern 737NG with two lovely big ND's at the wrong Airport. They must not have been trained to look at the Map during approaches ( visual or Instrument ) or to update and maintain the FMC.
SWA train and maintain their standards so they must also take responsibility for the error. They should be trained to update the Legs page to ensure it reflects what they are doing ( within reason, I'm not expecting waypoint building to design a visual approach ) and trained to expect their landing runway to be in front of them on the ND during approach!!
As I've said before even on a visual approach ( yes we still do quite a few all over the World ) we still have the approach ( ILS/RNAV/VOR ) selected so we get:-
1/ a missed approach in the box, yes it may not be the one ATC want you to fly off a visual but it's a start.
2/ distance to run
3/ electronic path info from the VNAV. ( depending on app selected and a/c type )
4/ SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
This is what I mean by Airline Culture. They obviously aren't training their crews to do this most basic of Airmanship stuff.
They obviously looked out the window and ignored the FMC. They probably didn't have a runway selected in the first place!!
1/ a missed approach in the box, yes it may not be the one ATC want you to fly off a visual but it's a start.
2/ distance to run
3/ electronic path info from the VNAV. ( depending on app selected and a/c type )
4/ SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
This is what I mean by Airline Culture. They obviously aren't training their crews to do this most basic of Airmanship stuff.
They obviously looked out the window and ignored the FMC. They probably didn't have a runway selected in the first place!!
Most basic of mistakes.
No excuses I'm afraid, if an Airline allows crews to make this mistake then obviously something is missing
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Imagine how we found airports in days of yore without GPS or RNAV for that matter.
Can't blame it on the avionics either
. Like other carriers around the planet, doesn't Southwest require is crews to back up visual approaches with all available NAV aids along with the use the FMC for a proper profile and crosschecking? Boeing FCOM recommends it.
How about altimeter cross checks during final... KBBG 1302' KPLK 940'. Why didn't the crew did not find it strange when passing 1,100' to find no pavement?
How about the airport layout? The airport diagrams are different in all respects?
Wait... there's more! How's about setting up a 5 mile point from the end of the runway with a 3 degree glide for vertical guidance
?
Can't blame it on the avionics either
. Like other carriers around the planet, doesn't Southwest require is crews to back up visual approaches with all available NAV aids along with the use the FMC for a proper profile and crosschecking? Boeing FCOM recommends it.How about altimeter cross checks during final... KBBG 1302' KPLK 940'. Why didn't the crew did not find it strange when passing 1,100' to find no pavement?
How about the airport layout? The airport diagrams are different in all respects? Wait... there's more! How's about setting up a 5 mile point from the end of the runway with a 3 degree glide for vertical guidance
?
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My perception is that SWA do have a culture issue. They have had several runway excursions due to poor approach profiles or landing on inappropriate runways (including due to weather issues), have recently crashed one in NY and now this. It suggests a combination of rushing and complacency. Fior what it's worth, they're not the only company I suspect this of, including some closer to home.
Oh, and Willowrun, you can keep your accusations of professional brethren closing ranks for your own profession - there are plenty of pilots making criticisms here, but try and find a lawyer to sue another...
Oh, and Willowrun, you can keep your accusations of professional brethren closing ranks for your own profession - there are plenty of pilots making criticisms here, but try and find a lawyer to sue another...
Thread Starter
I second that. Never going to say there isn't room for improvement from a SOP/ procedures perspective, but no matter how ironclad, well thought out the procedure, if the crew chooses not to apply it...
Well as a Pilot that has managed to fly all over the globe in narrow and wide body types for 25 years and NEVER ONCE tried to land on the wrong Airport I can honestly give my opinion and say the Pilots AND SWA were negligent by not making use of all available tools at their disposal to safely conduct the flight to the correct destination. A to B is all they had to do, nothing more nothing less.
The tools are available to use in the cockpit nicely fitted by Boeing.
You're saying they probably did update the FMC, use the ND as per SWA SOP's? Well if they did how could they miss their destination by 7 bloody miles?????? What.............they thought it map shift or something????
So you can make all the BS excuses you want but if the truth hurts then so be it.
Oh and it wouldn't be just SWA, I would say the same thing about a similar error if it were to occur in my company.
Fortunately no one was hurt and the Aircraft returned to service ok. Let's just all learn from their mistake and make sure we all have strategies in place to prevent it happening to us.
The tools are available to use in the cockpit nicely fitted by Boeing.
You're saying they probably did update the FMC, use the ND as per SWA SOP's? Well if they did how could they miss their destination by 7 bloody miles?????? What.............they thought it map shift or something????
So you can make all the BS excuses you want but if the truth hurts then so be it.
Oh and it wouldn't be just SWA, I would say the same thing about a similar error if it were to occur in my company.
Fortunately no one was hurt and the Aircraft returned to service ok. Let's just all learn from their mistake and make sure we all have strategies in place to prevent it happening to us.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 23rd Jan 2014 at 22:44.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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The SWA guys don't get paid by the hour, they get paid by the mile, hence the rush rush culture. See them slamming the fluffs down at LAX all the time, not making the first reverse high speed is a sin, apparently. It's the way management has set it up, it's why they make so much money.
Hard to pin exact blame here, but I'd say culture is the prime suspect.
Hard to pin exact blame here, but I'd say culture is the prime suspect.
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Yes, they screwed up but they are a fine group of pilots that learned how to efficiently operate from our little airliine at SNA. I hope they can put this all behind them and continue on as they will. We operated very efficiently and they do too. Major airlines always find a way to make simple things difficult. We got bought and found out.
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You have to wonder about these guys who come into these threads and talk about how great they are that they've never made such a mistake and post their resume like a peacock strutting around in front of the hens.
Thanks mate, appreciate the vote of confidence.
Wonder about me as you wish BUT I'm not the incompetent fool that couldn't find the correct Airport using the modern technology available just 12" in front of his eyes.....This isn't WW2.........
I'm mean come on.......you gotta wonder about two "professional Aviators" landing 7 nm from their destination haven't you?? Or is this par for the course in your neck of the woods??
Wonder about me as you wish BUT I'm not the incompetent fool that couldn't find the correct Airport using the modern technology available just 12" in front of his eyes.....This isn't WW2.........
I'm mean come on.......you gotta wonder about two "professional Aviators" landing 7 nm from their destination haven't you?? Or is this par for the course in your neck of the woods??
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I'm mean come on.......you gotta wonder about two "professional Aviators" landing 7 nm from their destination haven't you?? Or is this par for the course in your neck of the woods??
We've all made mistakes haven't we, but I'd like to think that most of us out there wouldn't land at the wrong Airport in good weather with a fully serviceable modern Jet, unless there were mitigating circumstances......
