SWA lands at wrong airport.
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Originally Posted by glendalegoon
I can't speak for southwest airlines. But with our HUD equipped planes the HUD is only used for CATll/CATlll ILS approaches.
Surely the conversation had not his place in SFO final, and during a check flight, but that is not the cause of not showing threw the windshield!!
It seems that many today's airlines' instructors never taught basic flight and are themselves not aware of basic flying knowledge importance.
Design of modern FBW is denying that importance too.
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galaxy flyer
Chairman Hersman of the NTSB stated today that non-pertinent conversations with the jumpseater may have played a role in the approach and landing.
gf -- would you please provide a link?
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Luck has run out
Mea culpa. Post, by yours truly, trying to define or delineate a separation between factors factual in nature on the one hand, and factors called 'luck' or good 'fortune' that are products of random chance on the other hand, has rightfully been scorned as sophomoric and otherwise subjected to ridicule. Deservedly so, I see.
I wonder what the probability calculation would be if one took scheduled passenger service airports in the continental US, then identified those which have proximity to another airfield which could, by luck, chance or mistake, be mistaken for the correct airport - - in situations akin to the SWA incident discussed in this thread and/or the recent Dreamlifter incident -- and then let us assume that the approach has been flown such that the touchdown point is comparable (relative to percentage of lineal distance of straight-line concrete in front of the pointy end of the aircraft). Given the set of 'correct airports in scheduled airline service' matched with airfields which hold some likelihood of being mistaken for the correct ones, what is the probability that runway length at the incorrect airfield will be inadequate? Adequate only with full-on braking? This type of probabilistic assessment was what I was trying to articulate before. Anyway. By the (air)way, no one ever has heard of a U S Navy jet jockey landing on the wrong aircraft carrier flight deck, have they? Makes me wonder...
I wonder what the probability calculation would be if one took scheduled passenger service airports in the continental US, then identified those which have proximity to another airfield which could, by luck, chance or mistake, be mistaken for the correct airport - - in situations akin to the SWA incident discussed in this thread and/or the recent Dreamlifter incident -- and then let us assume that the approach has been flown such that the touchdown point is comparable (relative to percentage of lineal distance of straight-line concrete in front of the pointy end of the aircraft). Given the set of 'correct airports in scheduled airline service' matched with airfields which hold some likelihood of being mistaken for the correct ones, what is the probability that runway length at the incorrect airfield will be inadequate? Adequate only with full-on braking? This type of probabilistic assessment was what I was trying to articulate before. Anyway. By the (air)way, no one ever has heard of a U S Navy jet jockey landing on the wrong aircraft carrier flight deck, have they? Makes me wonder...
Thread Starter
Willow Run,
Oh, yes they have. In the IO, during the Iranian "Hostage Crisis" an F-14 landed on the wrong ship.
A two-ship, led by a visiting HQ pilot, launched into the haze, flew its mission and returned to "a" ship. The visiting pilot mis-identified CV-64, the Constellation, for the one they left. Being a "visiting" pilot, filling the square of being "the troops" he wasn't very current. To the break they flew, on downwind, neither crew noted the error. Visiting pilot got a wave-off, at which point his RIO noted the wrong number on the island, informed said pilot "wrong ship, xxxxhead". Off they went to the right ship. Poor wingee didn't catch the number at the 90, being well practiced, he trapped. Instantly, the deck crew figured it out, as did the wayward Tomcat crew. Taken to the brig for the night, a ransom demand of ice cream was made. Next day, a helo dropped off a load of ice cream, the -14 and crew launched off, thoroughly zapped and that's the end.
My brother was pre-flighting his Tomcat when it happened, but I'm sure there are others.
Oh, yes they have. In the IO, during the Iranian "Hostage Crisis" an F-14 landed on the wrong ship.
A two-ship, led by a visiting HQ pilot, launched into the haze, flew its mission and returned to "a" ship. The visiting pilot mis-identified CV-64, the Constellation, for the one they left. Being a "visiting" pilot, filling the square of being "the troops" he wasn't very current. To the break they flew, on downwind, neither crew noted the error. Visiting pilot got a wave-off, at which point his RIO noted the wrong number on the island, informed said pilot "wrong ship, xxxxhead". Off they went to the right ship. Poor wingee didn't catch the number at the 90, being well practiced, he trapped. Instantly, the deck crew figured it out, as did the wayward Tomcat crew. Taken to the brig for the night, a ransom demand of ice cream was made. Next day, a helo dropped off a load of ice cream, the -14 and crew launched off, thoroughly zapped and that's the end.
My brother was pre-flighting his Tomcat when it happened, but I'm sure there are others.
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Sorry - is very much along those lines West coast. Well done you too! Wouldn't want you to be the last man standing still thinking they weren't lucky... I have discounted Ancient Geek at this stage.
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....and then let us assume that the approach has been flown such that the touchdown point is comparable (relative to percentage of lineal distance of straight-line concrete in front of the pointy end of the aircraft).
At night, you wouldn't know visually until in real close.
Thread Starter
OK465
Good examples. I'm not sure if I do it out of habit or if its a learned thing, but I report both DM and TUS is sight when planning the visual. Same for Rapid City and the nearby AFB.
Utrinque
I make my share of mistakes. They haven't gotten me on the front page, or more importantly caused damage to the aircraft or injured passengers/crew. I hope to learn the inside scoop about SWA, not because I want to see them hung out but rather so I can figure out the chain of events that allowed an experienced, likely competent crew to land at the wrong airport.
Good examples. I'm not sure if I do it out of habit or if its a learned thing, but I report both DM and TUS is sight when planning the visual. Same for Rapid City and the nearby AFB.
Utrinque
I make my share of mistakes. They haven't gotten me on the front page, or more importantly caused damage to the aircraft or injured passengers/crew. I hope to learn the inside scoop about SWA, not because I want to see them hung out but rather so I can figure out the chain of events that allowed an experienced, likely competent crew to land at the wrong airport.
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Galaxy Flyer,
The article you posted was dated 17 January, so Hershman obviously did not say it today.
The article only says that they are looking into whether there were improper discussions in the cockpit. Of course, they would check the CVR for sterile cockpit violations whether or not a there was a third person.
Since we haven't heard anymore about it, I'm guessing the NTSB didn't find anything on the CVR.
The article you posted was dated 17 January, so Hershman obviously did not say it today.
Chairman Hersman of the NTSB stated today that non-pertinent conversations with the jumpseater may have played a role in the approach and landing. This isn't gonna be good, you can take that to the bank.
Hersman said during an interview on CNN that aired on Thursday evening that her agency was investigating the possibility that the pilots of Southwest's flight from Chicago's Midway Airport that landed erroneously at a small airport in Missouri were discussing something unrelated to the flight they were operating, which was supposed to be destined for Branson, Mo.
Hersman said during an interview on CNN that aired on Thursday evening that her agency was investigating the possibility that the pilots of Southwest's flight from Chicago's Midway Airport that landed erroneously at a small airport in Missouri were discussing something unrelated to the flight they were operating
She's been to rodeo before, I'm sure there is more to the story. I'm guessing it's on the tape, the possibility the Board is investigating is HOW much the non-pertinent words affected the flight. This wouldn't have been said, if there was nothing to it. What, the Board Chair offers this up, then the report doesn't cite non-pertinent conversation and the transcript doesn't show it? I don't think so.
That speculation given, yes, being quiet would be better.
That speculation given, yes, being quiet would be better.
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a matter of grammar
three guys in the cockpit of a modern airliner. its night time. none of them have been to "THE" airport at night.
ATC says: Airport 12 o'clock and 14 miles, advise in sight for visual approach
Old game: Who sees airport first?
Captain doesn't want to look upstaged by copilot.
Copilot knows he should be captain.
Jumpseater knows he is a dispatcher but feels the urge to be alpha male.
LOOK says someone (anyone) THERE IS THE AIRPORT.
EVERYONE CHIMES IN : I JUST GOT IT TOO.
NOW everyone feels good about their prowess at sighting airports.
BUT, anytime you see THE AIRPORT. SAY THE WORDS: I SEE "AN" AIRPORT.
KEYWORD "AN" . YOU are now top dog seeing "AN" airport and a SMART PILOT for leaving positive identification to other means.
HOW do you identify an airport?
(for some reason I am reminded of "I LOVE LUCY" and the words: "HELLO BALL", but I digress).
Before radio and any navigation but pilotage, a pilot would fly over an airport and hope to read the name of the airport on a hangar or painted on the taxiway. In the film, "THE SPIRIT OF ST LOUIS" Lindbergh flys over Le Bourget and can read it on the hangar roof.
Years later, many airports had NDB/LOM which would help identify the correct airport. Provided you knew how to identify the NDB/LOM with morse code.
VORs, ILS, RNAV, GPS, IRS, NOW, GPA , MADD (the last three are national organization (for)women, grade point average, mothers against drunk driving).
But we are in a hurry in flying now. Every minute counts. HOW much? What, about 50 bucks a minute or more? You tell me.
So we don't fly over a field and read the name. And all those fancy gadgets are nice, but I SEE THE AIRPORT. THE AIRPORT "THE " airport.
So never say, "THE". Say, "AN" and then confirm it. Confirm it a couple of ways if you can.
ATC says: Airport 12 o'clock and 14 miles, advise in sight for visual approach
Old game: Who sees airport first?
Captain doesn't want to look upstaged by copilot.
Copilot knows he should be captain.
Jumpseater knows he is a dispatcher but feels the urge to be alpha male.
LOOK says someone (anyone) THERE IS THE AIRPORT.
EVERYONE CHIMES IN : I JUST GOT IT TOO.
NOW everyone feels good about their prowess at sighting airports.
BUT, anytime you see THE AIRPORT. SAY THE WORDS: I SEE "AN" AIRPORT.
KEYWORD "AN" . YOU are now top dog seeing "AN" airport and a SMART PILOT for leaving positive identification to other means.
HOW do you identify an airport?
(for some reason I am reminded of "I LOVE LUCY" and the words: "HELLO BALL", but I digress).
Before radio and any navigation but pilotage, a pilot would fly over an airport and hope to read the name of the airport on a hangar or painted on the taxiway. In the film, "THE SPIRIT OF ST LOUIS" Lindbergh flys over Le Bourget and can read it on the hangar roof.
Years later, many airports had NDB/LOM which would help identify the correct airport. Provided you knew how to identify the NDB/LOM with morse code.
VORs, ILS, RNAV, GPS, IRS, NOW, GPA , MADD (the last three are national organization (for)women, grade point average, mothers against drunk driving).
But we are in a hurry in flying now. Every minute counts. HOW much? What, about 50 bucks a minute or more? You tell me.
So we don't fly over a field and read the name. And all those fancy gadgets are nice, but I SEE THE AIRPORT. THE AIRPORT "THE " airport.
So never say, "THE". Say, "AN" and then confirm it. Confirm it a couple of ways if you can.
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Wonderful post! *hitting the "like" button* what a difference "an" and "the" can make. Yet, as well informed and well written your post is...what if it wasn't ego or alpha male issues, but just 3 tired people working hard, together, as a team, to "get there"? Just as likely imho.
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bloggs and deptrai: thanks. You guys ''get it". You can , with the use of one word remind everyone that the job ain't over till you're at the right gate with the parking brake set.
Blogg, to be sure, I am glendalegoon as in GLENDALE (CA) and GOON, not glenda.
OK465
K. I encourage you to watch many golf related sitcoms including lucy and perfect strangers. and don't do a mashie.
AS far as playing the airport game. I think you just didn't know you were playing it. There are so many ego related things in the cockpit (laugh when you hear someone say they check their ego at the cockpit door), you probably haven't noticed them.
Rozy1. Even as we speak our airline is taking delivery of more new tech HUD equipped planes. But our earliest HUD equipped planes (MD80) only used HUD for low vis landings. It is all about technology. You would have to be in aviation for quite awhile to see the old HUD devices.
Blogg, to be sure, I am glendalegoon as in GLENDALE (CA) and GOON, not glenda.
OK465
K. I encourage you to watch many golf related sitcoms including lucy and perfect strangers. and don't do a mashie.AS far as playing the airport game. I think you just didn't know you were playing it. There are so many ego related things in the cockpit (laugh when you hear someone say they check their ego at the cockpit door), you probably haven't noticed them.
Rozy1. Even as we speak our airline is taking delivery of more new tech HUD equipped planes. But our earliest HUD equipped planes (MD80) only used HUD for low vis landings. It is all about technology. You would have to be in aviation for quite awhile to see the old HUD devices.
Last edited by glendalegoon; 28th Jan 2014 at 18:49.