SWA lands at wrong airport.
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It has been 10 years since my last flight before the video training so things might have changed. It was 3 ten years ago. I guess they found another way to cut training costs. I only knew of the few restricted airports we did so thought there were more. I knew about EGE and the south airports we flew into so added what I wasn't sure of. Do you have to just watch the video now to stay qualified at TGU?
upt what point could they have made a successful go around ? While we all have it drummed into us to bin a bad landing, in GA at least there seem to be a lot worse outcomes from late go arounds than from just eating the fence. Of course a drop off is another matter but would they have even known it was there ?
Nothing to stop you doing a go around after touchdown BEFORE selecting Reversers, then you are committed.
We train for aborted landings after touchdown. A little different and a few bells and whistles go off but easy enough to do if the situation warrants.
We train for aborted landings after touchdown. A little different and a few bells and whistles go off but easy enough to do if the situation warrants.
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RobertS975:
Don't confuse the industry with the media. The NTSB will investigate this very thoroughly, in full awareness of what might have happened if the circs had been slightly different. It just won't make headlines because there's no 'fireball' or 'teriffied passengers' angle.
One of the problems in aviation, IMO, is that we delve so massively and completely into significant accidents, ie. fatal accidents or even spectacular accidents without fatalities (Hudson River miracle), but as a rule, the industry seems to gloss over the incidents that occur that easily could have been horrific accidents but for the thinnest of margins.
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lifeafteraviation:
If you don't know what I am talking about it is you who obviously know little about Part 121 and Operations Specifications.
As to Atlas someone corrected me that they are, indeed, a Part 121 operator.
If you don't know what I am talking about it is you who obviously know little about Part 121 and Operations Specifications.
As to Atlas someone corrected me that they are, indeed, a Part 121 operator.
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To be fair, Beanbag, I think Rob is not far off the mark in many respects. How much has been done about aircon fumes? Or the lack of feedback from Airbus FBW controls? What about EASA's contempt for scientific or expert input into the new FTL regs? And what reactions do we get if we pro-actively report a concern over systems or circumstances we consider may lead to an accident, rather than just sticking to report post-event? The regulators and companies all stick their head in the sand, especially if it's going to cost money, and when things do go wrong just look for scapegoats before seeing if something needs fixing.
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I think you need o review the requirements a little . I'm a Part 121 pilot, and I go into airports all the time that I've never been into nor had airport specific training. And it's been that way for a long time.
Thread Starter
"Part 121 pilots are required to be airport qualified for every Regular, Provisional, and Refueling airport set forth in their ops specs"
Not sure whose quote this, (aterpster perhaps) but could you please provide a reference to the requirement?
If indeed it says something to that effect, then I question the way it's being interpreted. Sure, there are special airports that require a checkout, there's airports that have special approaches, there's airports that I'm required to review the pictorials for, but to say every airport requires me to be qualified has me scratching me arse a bit. If to say I review 10-7 charts, study in depth the expected STAR and approach, airport diagram and ramp set up along with anything else I can get my hands on qualifies as a qualification, then we agree. If to say the first time I went to Des Moines I had a LCA riding shotgun, then we disagree.
Not sure whose quote this, (aterpster perhaps) but could you please provide a reference to the requirement?
If indeed it says something to that effect, then I question the way it's being interpreted. Sure, there are special airports that require a checkout, there's airports that have special approaches, there's airports that I'm required to review the pictorials for, but to say every airport requires me to be qualified has me scratching me arse a bit. If to say I review 10-7 charts, study in depth the expected STAR and approach, airport diagram and ramp set up along with anything else I can get my hands on qualifies as a qualification, then we agree. If to say the first time I went to Des Moines I had a LCA riding shotgun, then we disagree.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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If I can cast a little UK light on this issue?
Airports under the UK system are Categorised A, B and C.
Airlines are required to certify crews as 'qualified' to operate into the appropriate airports. Cat A ('Normal' airports) are re-certified at each Sim check as a 'routine' general clearance. Cat B require crews to make a thorough self-brief, by written brief or audio-visual, on the particular 'differences' from 'normal' for these. Cat C require either a specific sim check or actual flight under check.
If the US is similar, I think too much is being made of Aterp's post? I assume Branson would either be Cat A or B in the UK system.
Airports under the UK system are Categorised A, B and C.
Airlines are required to certify crews as 'qualified' to operate into the appropriate airports. Cat A ('Normal' airports) are re-certified at each Sim check as a 'routine' general clearance. Cat B require crews to make a thorough self-brief, by written brief or audio-visual, on the particular 'differences' from 'normal' for these. Cat C require either a specific sim check or actual flight under check.
If the US is similar, I think too much is being made of Aterp's post? I assume Branson would either be Cat A or B in the UK system.
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Yep, not the same system. We have "special" airports, and regular airports. I know that at my Part 121 carrier, (and at my previous Part 121 carrier) to go to a "special" airport we have to have qualified either by reviewing pictures and/or videos, or we need to have operated into there recently. For airports which aren't designated "special", no qualification or training is required.
Training and qualification may have been required for every single airport at TWA, but it's not generally true that it's a Part 121 requirement.
We also have qualifications to go destinations with less than 80% runways, And a multi-tiered system of qualification depending on how short the runway is and what the other challenges are there, but that a whole different ball of wax.
Training and qualification may have been required for every single airport at TWA, but it's not generally true that it's a Part 121 requirement.
We also have qualifications to go destinations with less than 80% runways, And a multi-tiered system of qualification depending on how short the runway is and what the other challenges are there, but that a whole different ball of wax.
Thread Starter
I think you hit on it, the fuzzy difference between company and FAA mandated training. We have airports where we mandate training that the FAA doesn't require. All the crews know is the man is requiring them to do the training, who the man is isn't important.
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"It's not the same."
I disagree - it is essentially pretty much the same!
"We have "special" airports, and regular airports." ie Cat B/C and Cat A. Two countries separated by a common language?
I disagree - it is essentially pretty much the same!
"We have "special" airports, and regular airports." ie Cat B/C and Cat A. Two countries separated by a common language?
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Umm, yeah, Okay one can find some similarities. The point is, Aterpster said pretty clearly and unambiguously that all airports require an individual qualification under all Part 121 operations, and that is clearly and unambiguously, not true.
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Part 121 pilots are required to be airport qualified for every Regular, Provisional, and Refueling airport set forth in their ops specs. Perhaps SWA's flight ops management shares some of the blame if their airport qualifications program is inadequate. That we don't know but I hope we eventually find out about their program.
§121.443 Pilot in command qualification: Route and airports.
(a) Each certificate holder shall provide a system acceptable to the Administrator for disseminating the information required by paragraph (b) of this section to the pilot in command and appropriate flight operation personnel. The system must also provide an acceptable means for showing compliance with §121.445.
(b) No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command unless the certificate holder has provided that person current information concerning the following subjects pertinent to the areas over which that person is to serve, and to each airport and terminal area into which that person is to operate, and ensures that that person has adequate knowledge of, and the ability to use, the information:
(1) Weather characteristics appropriate to the season.
(2) Navigation facilities.
(3) Communication procedures, including airport visual aids.
(4) Kinds of terrain and obstructions.
(5) Minimum safe flight levels.
(6) En route and terminal area arrival and departure procedures, holding procedures and authorized instrument approach procedures for the airports involved.
(7) Congested areas and physical layout of each airport in the terminal area in which the pilot will operate.
(8) Notices to Airmen.
(a) Each certificate holder shall provide a system acceptable to the Administrator for disseminating the information required by paragraph (b) of this section to the pilot in command and appropriate flight operation personnel. The system must also provide an acceptable means for showing compliance with §121.445.
(b) No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command unless the certificate holder has provided that person current information concerning the following subjects pertinent to the areas over which that person is to serve, and to each airport and terminal area into which that person is to operate, and ensures that that person has adequate knowledge of, and the ability to use, the information:
(1) Weather characteristics appropriate to the season.
(2) Navigation facilities.
(3) Communication procedures, including airport visual aids.
(4) Kinds of terrain and obstructions.
(5) Minimum safe flight levels.
(6) En route and terminal area arrival and departure procedures, holding procedures and authorized instrument approach procedures for the airports involved.
(7) Congested areas and physical layout of each airport in the terminal area in which the pilot will operate.
(8) Notices to Airmen.
§121.445 Pilot in command airport qualification: Special areas and airports.
(a) The Administrator may determine that certain airports (due to items such as surrounding terrain, obstructions, or complex approach or departure procedures) are special airports requiring special airport qualifications and that certain areas or routes, or both, require a special type of navigation qualification.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command to or from an airport determined to require special airport qualifications unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months:
(1) The pilot in command or second in command has made an entry to that airport (including a takeoff and landing) while serving as a pilot flight crewmember; or
(2) The pilot in command has qualified by using pictorial means acceptable to the Administrator for that airport.
(c) Paragraph (b) of this section does not apply when an entry to that airport (including a takeoff or a landing) is being made if the ceiling at that airport is at least 1,000 feet above the lowest MEA or MOCA, or initial approach altitude prescribed for the instrument approach procedure for that airport, and the visibility at that airport is at least 3 miles.
(d) No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command between terminals over a route or area that requires a special type of navigation qualification unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, that person has demonstrated qualification on the applicable navigation system in a manner acceptable to the Administrator, by one of the following methods:
(1) By flying over a route or area as pilot in command using the applicable special type of navigation system.
(2) By flying over a route or area as pilot in command under the supervision of a check airman using the special type of navigation system.
(3) By completing the training program requirements of appendix G of this part.
(a) The Administrator may determine that certain airports (due to items such as surrounding terrain, obstructions, or complex approach or departure procedures) are special airports requiring special airport qualifications and that certain areas or routes, or both, require a special type of navigation qualification.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command to or from an airport determined to require special airport qualifications unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months:
(1) The pilot in command or second in command has made an entry to that airport (including a takeoff and landing) while serving as a pilot flight crewmember; or
(2) The pilot in command has qualified by using pictorial means acceptable to the Administrator for that airport.
(c) Paragraph (b) of this section does not apply when an entry to that airport (including a takeoff or a landing) is being made if the ceiling at that airport is at least 1,000 feet above the lowest MEA or MOCA, or initial approach altitude prescribed for the instrument approach procedure for that airport, and the visibility at that airport is at least 3 miles.
(d) No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command between terminals over a route or area that requires a special type of navigation qualification unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, that person has demonstrated qualification on the applicable navigation system in a manner acceptable to the Administrator, by one of the following methods:
(1) By flying over a route or area as pilot in command using the applicable special type of navigation system.
(2) By flying over a route or area as pilot in command under the supervision of a check airman using the special type of navigation system.
(3) By completing the training program requirements of appendix G of this part.
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I doubt aterpster was referring to 121.443 which simply says the company has to provide you with all the charts, weather and other info you need for the airport you're assigned to fly to that day. This is true of any flight operation, even private, except the part about the company providing.
I think aterpster was just spouting off random stuff and doesn't understand the regulations this flight was operating under. It has nothing to do with what they might or might not do in the UK or anywhere else.
Either you're being sarcastic and arrogant or you're saying regulations haven't evolved over the past 27 years.
I take issue with people arrogantly judging others especially when they don't seem to know what they're talking about themselves. A pilot who believes they are above making mistakes is the most dangerous kind.
Anytime there is an accident or an incident, rules and procedures are adjusted and tweaked. They almost certainly will be in this case. This will cause more than just a "new memo" being generated.
I think aterpster was just spouting off random stuff and doesn't understand the regulations this flight was operating under. It has nothing to do with what they might or might not do in the UK or anywhere else.
I know the basic rules for landing on the correct runway at the correct airport quite well. I lived under those rules for 27 years, and they remain unchanged.
I take issue with people arrogantly judging others especially when they don't seem to know what they're talking about themselves. A pilot who believes they are above making mistakes is the most dangerous kind.
Anytime there is an accident or an incident, rules and procedures are adjusted and tweaked. They almost certainly will be in this case. This will cause more than just a "new memo" being generated.
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lifeafteraviation:
I made my share of mistakes but they were caught by good CRM. Landing at the wrong airport wasn't one of them. I was fortunate to get through the flying part of my career with no violations or incidents. Perhaps that was a lot of luck or perhaps a little bit of luck combined with adherence to SOPs.
If an airline pilots uses all the tools he is supposed to use he/she simply will not land at the wrong airport.
What these folks did is inexcusable. You want to give them a pass, fine by me. That's what these forums are about.
I take issue with people arrogantly judging others especially when they don't seem to know what they're talking about themselves. A pilot who believes they are above making mistakes is the most dangerous kind.
If an airline pilots uses all the tools he is supposed to use he/she simply will not land at the wrong airport.
What these folks did is inexcusable. You want to give them a pass, fine by me. That's what these forums are about.