SWA lands at wrong airport.
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Does anyone have the jepp chart for 14 at branson?
I only had access to the NOS chart (airnav.com) for 14.
And it does not show the "wrong airport" six miles away or any airport except the destination.
the low altitude chart does show the other airports nearby.
I can imagine that the captain and f/o didn't really know the terminal area and that there were other airports nearby. Wondering if they just jumped in the plane and didn't familiarize themselves with pertinent information.
My airline, and I am sure others do too, offer briefing pages for each airport served. Wondering if Southwest's briefing page for branson indicated a nearby airport?
I only had access to the NOS chart (airnav.com) for 14.
And it does not show the "wrong airport" six miles away or any airport except the destination.
the low altitude chart does show the other airports nearby.
I can imagine that the captain and f/o didn't really know the terminal area and that there were other airports nearby. Wondering if they just jumped in the plane and didn't familiarize themselves with pertinent information.
My airline, and I am sure others do too, offer briefing pages for each airport served. Wondering if Southwest's briefing page for branson indicated a nearby airport?
Originally Posted by Utrinque
if you found yourself in the flare expecting a 45 meter runway and seeing a 30 meter one .. you would go around wouldn't you.
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Yes. Landing at night on a 30 metre runway is something we do. You do not have to be an ace to see the difference. It's blindingly obvious. Anyone who has done it would agree.
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MANY years ago, at least for daylight operations, the length of the runway was easy to determine as you approached the threshold.
Instead of what the europeans call piano keys at the threshold, there were tally marks, each mark one thousand feet of runway, and the strike mark meant five thousand feet of runway
look at very old pictures of runways, I mean circa 1950s or so and you will see them.
llll / I wish I could get the / on top of the llll to indicate five.
Instead of what the europeans call piano keys at the threshold, there were tally marks, each mark one thousand feet of runway, and the strike mark meant five thousand feet of runway
look at very old pictures of runways, I mean circa 1950s or so and you will see them.
llll / I wish I could get the / on top of the llll to indicate five.
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Bloggs....since you seem to be learning. If you are flying visually onto a 30 metre runway. The narrow width will make you appear high or low on profile.. which of course you would know if you had briefed ... But I think we have covered that one now.
Runway Edge Lights?
Wouldn't the runway edge lights and approach lights have been signs?
"Runway edge lights are white, except on instrument runways where yellow replaces white on the last 600 metres (2,000 ft) or half the runway length (whichever is less), to form a caution zone for landings"
Also, KPLK has MIRL and KBBG has HIRL
One other thing. KBBG has a PAPI for 14 and KPLK has no PAPI/VASI for 12.
"Runway edge lights are white, except on instrument runways where yellow replaces white on the last 600 metres (2,000 ft) or half the runway length (whichever is less), to form a caution zone for landings"
Also, KPLK has MIRL and KBBG has HIRL
One other thing. KBBG has a PAPI for 14 and KPLK has no PAPI/VASI for 12.
Last edited by Old Boeing Driver; 18th Jan 2014 at 12:47. Reason: Add light info
Originally Posted by Utrinque
The narrow width will make you appear high or low on profile..
Also, KPLK has MIRL and KBBG has HIRL
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Bloggs, this may help you understand the point you seem to be missing;
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf
Figue 3 explains what Ultrinque is trying to get across to you.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf
Figue 3 explains what Ultrinque is trying to get across to you.
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I was flying once into KPIT. FAA inspector in the jumpseat. Radar says traffic at 11 o'clock, two miles.
We see it and report it in sight.
JUST THEN we see another plane, same bearing and closer.
whoops!
Radar told southwest the airport was blank at 14 miles. There was an airport out that way but visually determining distance, at night is tough.
BUT, with the published level of experience and all the navigational equipment on board there were other ways of verifying an airport that neither pilot had been to at night.
In my case we didn't even have TCAS then.
USE everything you have!
We see it and report it in sight.
JUST THEN we see another plane, same bearing and closer.
whoops!
Radar told southwest the airport was blank at 14 miles. There was an airport out that way but visually determining distance, at night is tough.
BUT, with the published level of experience and all the navigational equipment on board there were other ways of verifying an airport that neither pilot had been to at night.
In my case we didn't even have TCAS then.
USE everything you have!
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Does anyone here know what the latest is on Southwest's flight deck setup?
I know they were very archaic with their cockpit setups still using the old six pack with no auto throttle and no VNAV in a brand new LCD equipped aeroplane.
I know they were very archaic with their cockpit setups still using the old six pack with no auto throttle and no VNAV in a brand new LCD equipped aeroplane.
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It becomes more damming! Captain had not been there before. The FO been there once in the daytime. They are informed that they are 15 miles away from the airport by ATC. Despite all of this neither pilot raised any concern about suddenly accepting a visual. TEM at an all time low. One runway is 45 meters wide the other 30 meters. Anyone who has landed on both will know the pictures are hugely different day or night. Did they even know the runway width? Probably not, as per Capt Bloggs et al, they would not have briefed anything. SA also at all time low.
Listen to Capn Bloggs
Last edited by lifeafteraviation; 18th Jan 2014 at 13:17. Reason: not "how easy" but "how quickly"
Bloggs, this may help you understand the point you seem to be missing;
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf
Figue 3 explains what Ultrinque is trying to get across to you.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf
Figue 3 explains what Ultrinque is trying to get across to you.
B is wider than 45m and shorter than 11,500ft?? And C is narrower than 45m but longer than 11,500ft?? No wonder they "don't look like a normal runway"!
I'll stay with my previous position. In my experience unless you specifically told yourself (or someone said "look at that"), you wouldn't notice the aspect difference on the sort of 30m/45m runways we're talking about here.
Looking forward to the Google Earth link to that 30m wide 15,000ft runway...
Lighting? fair enough, VASI? (or lack thereof) fair enough, runway aspect? I don't buy it.
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NTSB
Sorry if this has been posted earlier.
January 17, 2014
WASHINGTON -- As part of its ongoing investigation into an incident involving a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-700 that landed at the wrong airport on January 13 in Missouri, the National Transportation Safety Board today released a brief investigative update.
On Tuesday, January 14, the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the Southwest aircraft arrived in the NTSB laboratory and were prepared for readout and analysis. The FDR recorded approximately 1000 parameters and contained approximately 27 hours of recorded data. Investigators have begun to analyze the data.
In addition, the CVR contained two-hours of good quality recording. According to the CVR, the Southwest crew was informed by air traffic control that that they were 15 miles from their intended target, which was Branson Airport. The crew responded that they had the airfield in sight and ATC cleared the aircraft for a visual approach and landing on runway 14 at Branson Airport. According to the CVR, the landing was uneventful and it was not until shortly after landing that the crew realized they had landed at the wrong airport.
On Thursday, January 16, the two pilots and a Southwest dispatcher who was riding in the jump seat were interviewed by NTSB investigators.
The captain has been with Southwest since 1999 and has about 16,000 flight hours including about 6,700 hours as a captain on the B-737. The captain informed investigators that this was his first flight into Branson Airport.
The first officer has been with Southwest since 2001 and has about 25,000 flight hours. The first officer informed investigators that he had previously flown into Branson Airport one time, but during daylight hours.
During the interviews, the pilots told investigators that the approach had been programmed into their flight management system, but that they first saw the airport beacon and the runway lights of M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport, located in Hollister, Mo., which they mistakenly identified as Branson Airport. They cited the bright runway lights at M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport and the fact that the runway was oriented in a similar direction. They also informed investigators that they flew a visual approach into what they believed to be Branson Airport and that they did not realize they were at the wrong airport until they had landed. They confirmed that they utilized heavy braking to bring the aircraft to a stop and then advised the Branson Airport tower that they had landed at the wrong airport.
Contact Information
Office of Public Affairs
490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, DC 20594
Keith Holloway
(202) 314-6100
[email protected]
January 17, 2014
WASHINGTON -- As part of its ongoing investigation into an incident involving a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-700 that landed at the wrong airport on January 13 in Missouri, the National Transportation Safety Board today released a brief investigative update.
On Tuesday, January 14, the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the Southwest aircraft arrived in the NTSB laboratory and were prepared for readout and analysis. The FDR recorded approximately 1000 parameters and contained approximately 27 hours of recorded data. Investigators have begun to analyze the data.
In addition, the CVR contained two-hours of good quality recording. According to the CVR, the Southwest crew was informed by air traffic control that that they were 15 miles from their intended target, which was Branson Airport. The crew responded that they had the airfield in sight and ATC cleared the aircraft for a visual approach and landing on runway 14 at Branson Airport. According to the CVR, the landing was uneventful and it was not until shortly after landing that the crew realized they had landed at the wrong airport.
On Thursday, January 16, the two pilots and a Southwest dispatcher who was riding in the jump seat were interviewed by NTSB investigators.
The captain has been with Southwest since 1999 and has about 16,000 flight hours including about 6,700 hours as a captain on the B-737. The captain informed investigators that this was his first flight into Branson Airport.
The first officer has been with Southwest since 2001 and has about 25,000 flight hours. The first officer informed investigators that he had previously flown into Branson Airport one time, but during daylight hours.
During the interviews, the pilots told investigators that the approach had been programmed into their flight management system, but that they first saw the airport beacon and the runway lights of M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport, located in Hollister, Mo., which they mistakenly identified as Branson Airport. They cited the bright runway lights at M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport and the fact that the runway was oriented in a similar direction. They also informed investigators that they flew a visual approach into what they believed to be Branson Airport and that they did not realize they were at the wrong airport until they had landed. They confirmed that they utilized heavy braking to bring the aircraft to a stop and then advised the Branson Airport tower that they had landed at the wrong airport.
Contact Information
Office of Public Affairs
490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, DC 20594
Keith Holloway
(202) 314-6100
[email protected]
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Post #33 suggests that the flight was 5 hours late. If the original flightdeck crew went beyond the number of hours, might this have been a relief crew ?
Relief Crew?
They may have been, but SW probably doesn't schedule their crews according to how many times they have been to a specific airport. If there was an "out of duty time" crew from the previous leg, they might not have been to Branson either.
Regarding the lights and tower call.
I could not find that either airport has pilot controlled lighting. KPLK might just leave theirs on all night. Some airports do.
The same might be the case for EBBG, especially if they knew there was a plane inbound (which they should have).
They were probably up on the tower frequency as a CTAF and that is why they called the tower.
It is a good question though, did they get an answer.
The Branson tower frequency may be remote monitored by approach control.
Regarding the lights and tower call.
I could not find that either airport has pilot controlled lighting. KPLK might just leave theirs on all night. Some airports do.
The same might be the case for EBBG, especially if they knew there was a plane inbound (which they should have).
They were probably up on the tower frequency as a CTAF and that is why they called the tower.
It is a good question though, did they get an answer.
The Branson tower frequency may be remote monitored by approach control.
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OK465:
ATC doesn't issue landing clearances to uncontrolled airports.
I suspect the NTSB report is not very well written.
This sounds more like a typical uncontrolled airport clearance from Springfield Approach.
I suspect the NTSB report is not very well written.
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If there had not been a set of airstairs available, this could have been an ugly disembarkation.
I found a video showing a set at the port side forward door during disembarkation.
Surprising to me that KPKL had a set.
Can you imagine climbing down fireman's ladders or sliding down the flaps from off the wing?
I found a video showing a set at the port side forward door during disembarkation.
Surprising to me that KPKL had a set.
Can you imagine climbing down fireman's ladders or sliding down the flaps from off the wing?
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I truly don't know where the portable stairs came from, but I know in a situation without a fire or other emergency situation, you simply would have to wait for stairs.
And with Branson only a few miles away, moving stairs mounted on a truck shouldn't be too hard to come by.
I understand a crew of baggage handlers and others came over from branson to help in quick time. So too the busses.
And with Branson only a few miles away, moving stairs mounted on a truck shouldn't be too hard to come by.
I understand a crew of baggage handlers and others came over from branson to help in quick time. So too the busses.