AA Crash Jamaica

[Bluestar51]

Towerdog,

the whole airline needs major corrective action?

I think the FAA is taking a look because AA has also scrapped a couple of wing tips in the last month or so besides the overrun.

BS

[KC135777]

p51guy said:
"I've landed at San Jose Costa Rica in a 757 with an authorized 15 knot tailwind because circling would have put us into the clouds because of rising terrain. The airport is at 3000 feet landing uphill. Next leg we flew to MIA and a cell was moving in from the west, us landing east. About a 4 mile final we got the windshift to a 15 knot tailwind. We had a 13,000 ft runway at sea level but now were not legal. I knew if we went around we would end up at Orlando because the cell would then close the airport for a while. Yes we decided to land because we had just done the same thing up in the higher airport with a much shorter runway. Was it right? No. It made sense and we heard nothing about it. Happened almost 10 years ago but the rules are the same today. What is safe and what is legal sometimes aren't the same. Normal tailwind limits for us on the 757 was 10 knots unless it was a special airport. I see it still is."
_______________________________________________________

If you're not retired, please don't make up your own rules. You (or your CA) did not have the "emergency authority" to land MIA w/ a 15 kt TW. You were lucky. What would you have said at the hearing, IF you guys dinged something on landing? Willful noncompliance ONLY gets you in trouble, or people hurt, or bent metal...unless you're "lucky". Don't chance it. Go to FLL/PBI/MCO and wait it out. We get paid by the minute. THERE IS NO MISSION.

KC135777

[p51guy]

I did say it was not right. Before going to FLL or MCO we probably had enough time to land west with a storm approaching from the west. It eliminated going through an approach that would have put us at much more risk than landing on 13,000 ft runway with a 13,000 ft rwy we did on the previous leg with 8,000 ft. Thought sticking my neck out a tiny bit was worth it that day. Noticed the guys with the same restriction behind me landed too, knowing the alternative. I made the second turnoff to demonstrate it was not risky with 7,000 ft remaining just in case it would help at the hearing.

[Bluestar51]

p51guy,

The only thing I know of that stops better than a B757 has 13.5 foot Hamilton Standards.

BS

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by TowerDog

So a captain is incompent or has a brain-fart/bad day (Or brake/anti-skid failure) and the whole airline needs major corrective action?
If the only trend you can come up with is Little Rock, then the real trend is 8 million flights without over-runs between the Little Rock and Kingston accidents.
Suggest you stick to old 1011 stories and if AA or the NTSB need your advice, I am sure they will ask for it

June 1, 1999: American Airlines Flight 1420, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82, overran the runway while landing during a storm at Little Rock, Arkansas; the plane's captain and 10 passengers were killed.

December 24, 2008: American Airlines Flight 1544, a McDonnell Douglas MD-80 carrying 54 passengers and a crew of five from Chicago O'Hare Airport to Washington Reagan National Airport, skidded off the runway.

December 13, 2009, an MD-80 landing at Charlotte North Carolina touched down and went off the left side of the runway. While trying to get back onto the runway, the plane's right wingtip touched the ground.

December 22, 2009, a Boeing 737 overran a runway amid heavy rain at Norman Manley International Airport in Kingston, Jamaica, injuring 91 passengers.

December 24, 2009, an MD-80 en route from Chicago, Illinois, struck a wingtip landing in Austin, Texas.

When a guy with explosive skivvies shows up on an airplane, there are calls of "...and you never connected the dots?" How many dots does it take?

[p51guy]

And your point is????????????????????????????????????????????????

[20driver]

The point is

That is a lot of incidents, (one accident), 4 in a year with (slightly) bent metal on landings. Have Delta, UA, CO had that many? They all fly about the same number of flights.
In the last 10 years has any other US major (not commuter) except AA had a fatality? (Southwest with one, again a dodgy landing)
The FAA is right to be poking around, those numbers demand attention. If I were a Lloyds name I'd be looking for extra on the AA book.

20driver

[p51guy]

No, Delta only overflies MSP by 150 miles and a week earlier lands in Atlanta on a taxiway by mistake. AA needs looking into but Delta doesn't?

[KC135777]

20driver said: "In the last 10 years has any other US major (not commuter) except AA had a fatality? (Southwest with one, again a dodgy landing)"

____________________________________________________________ _____

"except AA"? AA has NOT had a fatality in the last 10 years. The cowboys at Southwest (who's 250kts is 50kts faster than everyone else's) have the 1 boy in the MDW overshoot that was in the car.

KC135777

[misd-agin]

M,

587. Nov 12 2001. 8 yrs.

[vapilot2004]

M,

587. Nov 12 2001. 8 yrs.

That investigation made me realize, among other things, that it's exceedingly difficult to defend oneself when dead.

[Diamond Bob]

Originally Posted by vapilot2004

That investigation made me realize, among other things, that it's exceedingly difficult to defend oneself when dead.

I always felt it was the plastic tail that did them in.

[411A]

I always felt it was the plastic tail that did them in.

Oh yeah, that and the bicycle expert in the RHS.
Still, he was only doing what he was apparently taught by the AA training department, and said training was completely inappropriate for a heavy jet transport airplane.

[Zeffy]

HUD a hindrance?

The HUD has it's limitations. To think that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented is silly.

Field of view issues. Lighting intensity issues, jumpiness of Flight Path Vector in turbulence, etc, etc.

Sliced bread was certainly a noteworthy and useful development, but it hardly compares to the magic and precision of HUD.

There are countless single-seat military aircraft flying around using HUD as the primary flight reference.

Again -- these were not inexperienced crewmembers and it's highly doubtful that the CA was new to flying HUD.

Do you really think that the use of HUD will turn out to be causal in the accident report?

[WhatsaLizad?]

Go to Hell 411A

Typical keyboard courage crap.

You wouldn't have the guts to speak your crap in front of any AA pilot.

Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman.

[Pugilistic Animus]

said training was completely inappropriate for a heavy jet transport airplane

or a piper cub
note assisting roll with rudder and control reversal are different items altogether

note I'm not bashing nothing, just saying I'm waiting for the answer like everyone else

[Locked door]

It's not just AA, although they do seem to be having more instances of poor airmanship than the other US majors. Every time I fly to US airspace I see things and hear things that make my skin crawl. For whatever reason there's a very different attitude to aviation in the US, both from ATC and the flight crew perspective. Don't get me wrong, there are some very competent individuals but there doesn't seem to be any control of those that underperform. And there are a lot of them.

I've had a TCAS RA on finals, parachutists spotted passing by our flightdeck, been shouted at for querying the landing runway after the 3rd switch, seen a near vertical visual approach by a 767 in SFO, and approach continued into the centre of a huge cell in Washington resulting in a g/a and a radio call along the lines of 'um, we're having trouble maintaining altitude', a visual approach that crossed the threshold at 600ft (from our TCAS).... All from US majors. And don't even get me started on LAHSO. Gash is a word that springs to mind.

The list goes on but you get the point, flying into US airspace can be like entering a 3rd world environment but the locals don't seem to be able to see it. Quite honestly I'm amazed there aren't more fatal accidents over there.

Just me two pennies' worth.

LD

[411A]

You wouldn't have the guts to speak your crap in front of any AA pilot.
Right or wrong this isn't the first time you've danced on the grave of a fallen AA pilot and a fellow airman

I'm right, and you know it.
And, I have told several active (and retired) AA pilots to their face what I think...and they back away, promptly.

AA was, at one time, a first rate airline, it's pilot training was top notch, without exception.
Then...the older guys retired, and it all went to hell in a hen basket.
We can see this almost monthly/annually, with many incidents/accidents aplenty.
Cali, Colombia was the absolute final straw...IF I had been in charge of the FAA at that time, their operating certificate would have beeen withdrawn, pronto.

Little Rock, as well.
587...absolutely.

AA ops, absolute cr*p.
I know it, you (although ignoring facts) know it...and so does the FAA.

AA, a leader in the past...now, to be avoided, whereever possible.

[Spooky 2]

Time out. I need to get some popcorn and another drink!

[misd-agin]

Zeffy,

The HUD is nice for some things but it has limitations. Even while the HUD is deployed your scan, IMO, needs to include the lower displays.

I doubt that the HUD will be an issue in the investigation.

High visibility, 360 degree FOV, canopies are great in fighters. However, there are problems with that visibility when flying IFR or at night on approach. Advances can have drawbacks. It's the total value that's important. The HUD is useful, but not 100% of the time.