Norwegian Long Haul - selection and terms
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Sorry mate.. you can't legally do that in Europe. An acquaintance of mine got a 240000 euro bill for 7 year tax evasion with Ryanair. Ryanair is now obliged to pay pension contributions in the base country. With fiscal union the game will be over.If you want to be more competitive with Gulf carriers and the like the only way is to push to have tariffs imposed on them same that on Chinese solar panels instead of promoting social dumping and unemployment by hiring Thai cabin crew. And this is even more strikingly bad as we are talking about a Scandinavian company. What to do.. all countries have their arsholes and Mr. Kijos looks lke being the Norwegian one.
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Things are getting more complicated by the minute.
Funny enough I cancelled my solar panel install a few months ago when the Chinese solar panel Levy was applied. Installing the panels at the new (significantly more expensive) price no longer made sense.
I have to say I cannot see who benefitted from that one. I certainly won't be paying the European prices. That's not a dig at the new rules, the maths just goes askew.
Regards,
Funny enough I cancelled my solar panel install a few months ago when the Chinese solar panel Levy was applied. Installing the panels at the new (significantly more expensive) price no longer made sense.
I have to say I cannot see who benefitted from that one. I certainly won't be paying the European prices. That's not a dig at the new rules, the maths just goes askew.
Regards,
Last edited by Jetjockey145; 21st Jul 2013 at 10:42.
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Cucuotto
I think there needs to be some balance in this debate
1. Can't really comment on the legality of the contract, but i can't imagine for one minute that NLH will get involved in some thing that is illegal it would be illogical to do so and very sort term?
2. No one really knows whether long haul low cost will work from Europe, but the fact that no one has done it successfully before means very little.
3. The NAS product is closer to legacy airline product in terms of customer service and much better than some or indeed most of the other Lo Co products on offer
4. The NLH has premium seating available and even the economy seating is better in terms of leg room than the like of say Monarch/Tui product
5. There clearly have been some start up problems and perhaps the Thai crew don't/didn't think outside the box in the way that European crew would have reacted to situations such as lack of a credit card, indeed this happens on the NAS network from time to time, remember that some of NAS so called short haul sectors run to nearly 7 hours so JFK-OSL is not much longer
6. Costs well one thing is for sure you cannot pay Norwegian or indeed Danish/Swedish employment costs, wages and employers social costs and fly Loco let alone compete with Asian carriers, I make no judgement on the rights or wrongs of Asian employment T&C's but if you allow unfettered access to Europe from the far East & Middle East, then the pressure that BA/IB KLM/AF DLH are currently seeing is only the tip of the ice berg, for joe public will look at cost and value and NAS have demonstrated in Norway that even paying all the Norwegian employment taxes that they are profitable in part because SAS is/was so inefficient.
My bet is that Long Haul will work for Norwegian and that the messy side of the contracts will be resolved and the announcement of a USA base opening this Autumn points to that, NLH have until the end of the year to sort out these issues or face a ban flying long haul out of Norway, Mr Norwegian as you call him is no fool or MOL and would much prefer to have LN on the aircraft rather than EI, Norway currently has a left centre Government more akin in some ways to an old style UK Labour Government and an election before the year out may change that, they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly.
Thankfully its not my money in play, but fascinating all the same.....
1. Can't really comment on the legality of the contract, but i can't imagine for one minute that NLH will get involved in some thing that is illegal it would be illogical to do so and very sort term?
2. No one really knows whether long haul low cost will work from Europe, but the fact that no one has done it successfully before means very little.
3. The NAS product is closer to legacy airline product in terms of customer service and much better than some or indeed most of the other Lo Co products on offer
4. The NLH has premium seating available and even the economy seating is better in terms of leg room than the like of say Monarch/Tui product
5. There clearly have been some start up problems and perhaps the Thai crew don't/didn't think outside the box in the way that European crew would have reacted to situations such as lack of a credit card, indeed this happens on the NAS network from time to time, remember that some of NAS so called short haul sectors run to nearly 7 hours so JFK-OSL is not much longer
6. Costs well one thing is for sure you cannot pay Norwegian or indeed Danish/Swedish employment costs, wages and employers social costs and fly Loco let alone compete with Asian carriers, I make no judgement on the rights or wrongs of Asian employment T&C's but if you allow unfettered access to Europe from the far East & Middle East, then the pressure that BA/IB KLM/AF DLH are currently seeing is only the tip of the ice berg, for joe public will look at cost and value and NAS have demonstrated in Norway that even paying all the Norwegian employment taxes that they are profitable in part because SAS is/was so inefficient.
My bet is that Long Haul will work for Norwegian and that the messy side of the contracts will be resolved and the announcement of a USA base opening this Autumn points to that, NLH have until the end of the year to sort out these issues or face a ban flying long haul out of Norway, Mr Norwegian as you call him is no fool or MOL and would much prefer to have LN on the aircraft rather than EI, Norway currently has a left centre Government more akin in some ways to an old style UK Labour Government and an election before the year out may change that, they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly.
Thankfully its not my money in play, but fascinating all the same.....
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Thanks LNIDA.
Very balanced if I may say so and thank you.
These are the points that I have been trying to make all along. Sooner or later these issues will be / must be sorted out.
I would be very happy to accept this job if it was offered, as I am sure the operation will succeed, and the T's & C's will improve as NLH get a grip on things. I am sure that initially there will be teething problems but they will be sorted.
I make no excuses for applying for this job no matter what people call me.
At my present position in life this contract will do me no harm at all.
In March of last year my company sent me to Oslo for a week to fly for Norwegian. It was a wet lease deal due to crew shortages at Norwegian.
We occasionally carried a NAS number 1.
I personally was impressed with what I saw. It was a good operation. Everybody was friendly and we were all treated well and looked after.
I find it hard to believe that NLH intend to purposely treat the new NLH crews any differently with the possible exception of Pension plans etc.
If they give me a chance then I am happy to join up, just like many others. The rest as they say, is an adventure!
Cheers,
Very balanced if I may say so and thank you.
These are the points that I have been trying to make all along. Sooner or later these issues will be / must be sorted out.
I would be very happy to accept this job if it was offered, as I am sure the operation will succeed, and the T's & C's will improve as NLH get a grip on things. I am sure that initially there will be teething problems but they will be sorted.
I make no excuses for applying for this job no matter what people call me.
At my present position in life this contract will do me no harm at all.
In March of last year my company sent me to Oslo for a week to fly for Norwegian. It was a wet lease deal due to crew shortages at Norwegian.
We occasionally carried a NAS number 1.
I personally was impressed with what I saw. It was a good operation. Everybody was friendly and we were all treated well and looked after.
I find it hard to believe that NLH intend to purposely treat the new NLH crews any differently with the possible exception of Pension plans etc.
If they give me a chance then I am happy to join up, just like many others. The rest as they say, is an adventure!
Cheers,
Last edited by Jetjockey145; 21st Jul 2013 at 13:47.
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LNIDA,
whilst I can see your point
"they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly."
Did you check the price of a MickieD last time you were in OSL ? ( & we won't even mention what is asked for the Beer to wash it down
)
Senior CC in OSL net around 4500€/mth vs 1500€ ? in Spain, however, I have been told that renting a small 32m studio & paying service bills accounts for at least 2000€/mth in Olso vs 750? in AGP (even less in ALC ) . . . so, we shouldn't compare Apples with Oranges.
whilst I can see your point
"they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly."
Did you check the price of a MickieD last time you were in OSL ? ( & we won't even mention what is asked for the Beer to wash it down
)Senior CC in OSL net around 4500€/mth vs 1500€ ? in Spain, however, I have been told that renting a small 32m studio & paying service bills accounts for at least 2000€/mth in Olso vs 750? in AGP (even less in ALC ) . . . so, we shouldn't compare Apples with Oranges.
Last edited by captplaystation; 21st Jul 2013 at 13:59.
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At the risk of repeating myself...............
2 Hotdogs and a coke cost me £20 at Oslo Airport. As for ordering evening food in the hotel, just don't go there.
If one was suddenly re-based in Oslo after Bangkok, one would get a shock. A big shock!
Urrrm? I believe that the European fleet (737) get extra salary if based in Oslo.
Hmmm.
2 Hotdogs and a coke cost me £20 at Oslo Airport. As for ordering evening food in the hotel, just don't go there.
If one was suddenly re-based in Oslo after Bangkok, one would get a shock. A big shock!
Urrrm? I believe that the European fleet (737) get extra salary if based in Oslo.
Hmmm.
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I think we are saying more or less the same thing, costs in Norway dictate the salary and up to a point within country it makes no odd's it's just more noughts on the end, the problem comes when any service is either imported or more importantly exported, unless you have very very high productivity, so if your SAS paying cabin crew costs Norwegian style then your cost base will always be far higher than an Asian based carrier, fuel, aircraft lease rates, and to a lesser extent pilot wages a level playing field, taxes are not, social costs, pensions,if any are not level, so you need an edge. O'leary was not wrong when he said that only in Norway would Norwegian be considered a low cost airline, its a little tongue in cheek though, he knows that with production capped for core more or less that any growth will come a lower cost than if the same growth were to come from Scandi land.
Yes the contractors package is less than core, but it is better than Ryanair/Jet2 in money terms alone and they treat you like adults, you are in good hotels on night stops, provided with crew meals on longer duty day, which most are and the aircraft are well spec'd and of course new out of the production line, EFB makes for a very easy end of day sign out, by the time the last passenger is off so are you all signed out no walk to the crew room, just the car park.
So lets hope the NLH gets sorted, i'd certainly be interested.
Yes the contractors package is less than core, but it is better than Ryanair/Jet2 in money terms alone and they treat you like adults, you are in good hotels on night stops, provided with crew meals on longer duty day, which most are and the aircraft are well spec'd and of course new out of the production line, EFB makes for a very easy end of day sign out, by the time the last passenger is off so are you all signed out no walk to the crew room, just the car park.
So lets hope the NLH gets sorted, i'd certainly be interested.
Last edited by LNIDA; 21st Jul 2013 at 17:12.
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LNIDA and Capt Playstation.
I agree with you both. You are saying pretty much the same thing.
LNIDA
I particularly agree with what you say re the aircraft and EFB's etc.
I would also agree with you on the pay front.
What I really like is the part about being treated like adults, what a blessing that would be.
I can't name names obviously, but a month ago I wrote to my chief pilot with a legitimate concern re certain policy within the company. You won't be surprised to hear that he hasn't even bothered to answer!
5 months ago I put in a claim for travelling between two bases. I was docked 5 miles in each direction for the wildest of reasons.
Any airline can treat you like a child. Full time employment, as opposed to contract work, is no vaccine.
I agree with you both. You are saying pretty much the same thing.
LNIDA
I particularly agree with what you say re the aircraft and EFB's etc.
I would also agree with you on the pay front.
What I really like is the part about being treated like adults, what a blessing that would be.
I can't name names obviously, but a month ago I wrote to my chief pilot with a legitimate concern re certain policy within the company. You won't be surprised to hear that he hasn't even bothered to answer!
5 months ago I put in a claim for travelling between two bases. I was docked 5 miles in each direction for the wildest of reasons.
Any airline can treat you like a child. Full time employment, as opposed to contract work, is no vaccine.
Please enter the content?
as I am sure the operation will succeed, and the T's & C's will improve as NLH get a grip on things.
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Jetjockey are you sure you are not working for Rishworth ? Because you are making delusional statments about a base in JFK the sound like a bait,. On the basis of which immigration law would anyone be allowed to stay and work in the US if not a citizen. And how can you have an EASA license if you are a US licensed pilot ?
Solar panel are down 75 percent since 5 years ago and the price are stable . But European solar panel makers failed one after the other due to Chinese dumping.
Sure if you have slaves working 16 hours a day for 7 days a week for a piece of bread it is very easy to screw the market . Same for EK.. tell me. how much a baggage handler or a ramp agent makes in Dubai ? A few dollars and a bed in the desert. The solutions is not getting to their level to compete , unless you want for your kids to find a job on par with Chinese conditions when it will be their time . The solution is to impose the respect of certain rules and standards to able to export to Europe or ...to take European passengers . A Norwegian woman was raped and than arrested for having reported the rape in Dubai few days ago. Is this the level of civilization you want to get? Norwegian and Mrs Kjios are at fault not only for the outrageously "piratesque" set up they invented but because Norway is beacon of civilization and welfare oriented capitalism .They don't make any good to their country image which by the way has, thanks to oil one of the highest per capita income in the world. A Burger flipper should have no pensions ? Work is work. Slavery was abolished in the western world many years ago. But may be Kyjos real dream is to be Sheik. So may I suggest Bangladeshi cabin crew... and and Dhaka as a base,,even cheaper.
Solar panel are down 75 percent since 5 years ago and the price are stable . But European solar panel makers failed one after the other due to Chinese dumping.
Sure if you have slaves working 16 hours a day for 7 days a week for a piece of bread it is very easy to screw the market . Same for EK.. tell me. how much a baggage handler or a ramp agent makes in Dubai ? A few dollars and a bed in the desert. The solutions is not getting to their level to compete , unless you want for your kids to find a job on par with Chinese conditions when it will be their time . The solution is to impose the respect of certain rules and standards to able to export to Europe or ...to take European passengers . A Norwegian woman was raped and than arrested for having reported the rape in Dubai few days ago. Is this the level of civilization you want to get? Norwegian and Mrs Kjios are at fault not only for the outrageously "piratesque" set up they invented but because Norway is beacon of civilization and welfare oriented capitalism .They don't make any good to their country image which by the way has, thanks to oil one of the highest per capita income in the world. A Burger flipper should have no pensions ? Work is work. Slavery was abolished in the western world many years ago. But may be Kyjos real dream is to be Sheik. So may I suggest Bangladeshi cabin crew... and and Dhaka as a base,,even cheaper.
Last edited by cucuotto; 23rd Jul 2013 at 11:52.
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cucuotto
Interesting post, rant re rape aside?
My thoughts on this are that NLH thought they might get approval for Thai cabin crew, but at the minute they have an extension on approval until the end of the year during which time its business as normal. I suspect the government will up hold the ban on Thai crew, without which the costs probably don't add up against Asian carriers, so given that they have these new aircraft with lower operating costs than many on the Atlantic at least for now, then they may turn their sights on the US market, i guess they need movement on foreign ownership rules or set up a USA company much as Virgin did, but spending $bn's with Boeing will oil the wheels somewhat.
Now I'm not saying thats the final answer, but your wish for Scandi T&C's for NLH would take them down the same path as SAS, but paying normal European/US salaries would attract plenty of interest, even if its LoCo salaries and as i said before, NAS already fly some of the longest sectors anywhere in the world on 737's Oslo-Dubia & Las Palmas-Tromsoe are over 7 hours, so lets see.
My thoughts on this are that NLH thought they might get approval for Thai cabin crew, but at the minute they have an extension on approval until the end of the year during which time its business as normal. I suspect the government will up hold the ban on Thai crew, without which the costs probably don't add up against Asian carriers, so given that they have these new aircraft with lower operating costs than many on the Atlantic at least for now, then they may turn their sights on the US market, i guess they need movement on foreign ownership rules or set up a USA company much as Virgin did, but spending $bn's with Boeing will oil the wheels somewhat.
Now I'm not saying thats the final answer, but your wish for Scandi T&C's for NLH would take them down the same path as SAS, but paying normal European/US salaries would attract plenty of interest, even if its LoCo salaries and as i said before, NAS already fly some of the longest sectors anywhere in the world on 737's Oslo-Dubia & Las Palmas-Tromsoe are over 7 hours, so lets see.
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Can someone clarify the NLH training partnership with VS? When does it start? How long does it last? Will new VS 787 FOs get experience on NLH 787s? Will new NLH FOs then get trained on VS 787s when they arrive?
Cheers
Cheers
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Hello Cucuotto
No I don't work for Rishworth, and I have better things to do than spend my time time on pprune trying to convince others to join any organisation.
My opinions are valid as they apply only to me, as I have already said many times on this thread.
It is obvious that you are so biased re this particular operation, that anybody that expresses any interest on favour immediately incurs your wrath.
Insults rapidly follow, despite you not knowing the first thing about the person you are attacking, or their particular circumstances.
Could I suggest that you give it up and go and find another thread to hijack. You have not been appointed as chief of the world Police.
If the contract in question does not do it for you then fine, I respect that, it is your right. It is not your right to tell others what to do and then start insulting them (scab) when they don't agree with you. Your general tone in your postings is not a pleasant one. Who do you think you are that you can start dictating to others how they should run their lives?
Then again, it is easy to throw your weight around when your hiding behind a keyboard!
Give it up, go away, stop depressing everyone, and call it a day.
No I don't work for Rishworth, and I have better things to do than spend my time time on pprune trying to convince others to join any organisation.
My opinions are valid as they apply only to me, as I have already said many times on this thread.
It is obvious that you are so biased re this particular operation, that anybody that expresses any interest on favour immediately incurs your wrath.
Insults rapidly follow, despite you not knowing the first thing about the person you are attacking, or their particular circumstances.
Could I suggest that you give it up and go and find another thread to hijack. You have not been appointed as chief of the world Police.
If the contract in question does not do it for you then fine, I respect that, it is your right. It is not your right to tell others what to do and then start insulting them (scab) when they don't agree with you. Your general tone in your postings is not a pleasant one. Who do you think you are that you can start dictating to others how they should run their lives?
Then again, it is easy to throw your weight around when your hiding behind a keyboard!
Give it up, go away, stop depressing everyone, and call it a day.
Last edited by Jetjockey145; 24th Jul 2013 at 22:32.
Could I suggest that you give it up and go and find another thread to hijack. You have not been appointed as chief of the world Police.
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None of the above validates any attempt to insult another individual on this site.
Period.
Any concerns this individual may have are now done to death. Give us all a break and give it up. He can be as concerned as he likes, that does not give him the right to bad mouth anybody else that does not agree.
Free speech is one thing. Cucuotto has gone way beyond that.
Enough already.
Period.
Any concerns this individual may have are now done to death. Give us all a break and give it up. He can be as concerned as he likes, that does not give him the right to bad mouth anybody else that does not agree.
Free speech is one thing. Cucuotto has gone way beyond that.
Enough already.
Last edited by Jetjockey145; 24th Jul 2013 at 22:37.
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Jet.. sorry I did not mean to offend you. But you see not everyone is for sale for peanuts Scab is not an actually an offense. It just defines a mental attitude common to the people that brought this profession to what it is now..People paying to fly, accepting unacceptable contracts, vexation, bonds. People that have been contributing to the interested attempt to destroy this job. Get a type rating.. get another free. O'Leary agenda..
But extreme capitalism is on its way out fortunately. Bad timing to start a business with this premises. Read the newspapers my friend...listen to Obama. Its time for money to pour back in the pocket of the people..not of a few greedy assholes.
RTO...
we definetly need more of that in Europe.
But extreme capitalism is on its way out fortunately. Bad timing to start a business with this premises. Read the newspapers my friend...listen to Obama. Its time for money to pour back in the pocket of the people..not of a few greedy assholes.
RTO...
we definetly need more of that in Europe.
Last edited by cucuotto; 25th Jul 2013 at 09:35.
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cucuotto
Its late, actually very early where i live and I have had a few beers, no sin block of days off!! But i really don't see how the word scab can be anything other than offensive?
I just don't recognise the words Pay2Fly or MOL in anything that Norwegian does? from what i can see its an honest business that's well run, looks after its staff, pays the market rate and is very efficient, sure it get every last minute of duty time from its employee's but its not ball and chain most are not bonded and the inflow of people wanting to work here massively exceeds any out flow.
Try life out of work? any job that is paying north of €125k PA for the best office view in the world will have plenty of applicants, me amongst them! whats wrong with you people?
I just don't recognise the words Pay2Fly or MOL in anything that Norwegian does? from what i can see its an honest business that's well run, looks after its staff, pays the market rate and is very efficient, sure it get every last minute of duty time from its employee's but its not ball and chain most are not bonded and the inflow of people wanting to work here massively exceeds any out flow.
Try life out of work? any job that is paying north of €125k PA for the best office view in the world will have plenty of applicants, me amongst them! whats wrong with you people?
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any job that is paying north of €125k PA for the best office view in the world will have plenty of applicants, me amongst them! whats wrong with you people?
Last time I check it it was almost 1/2 of what I make now net while based at home, with all the nice benefits and not commuting to/from BKK.
Have things changed in the meanwhile?