heavydane

Hi,

Wiskey wrote:
“I just can not see how. I know both unions can go to strike after this date, but it will be stupid to strike for this reason since it is far from unusual to have several unions among one profession in the same company. The best will be to unite, but for what I have heard it will not be likely any time soon. My bet will be some time in 2007-8....”

Again a very good example of wishful thinking! We have a signed deal with SAS that we are the only ones negotiating a contract next year and as Ramrise stated that’s the way it is going to be. We don’t need to strike to get a new agreement, You do!


35G45 wrote:
“Just keep in mind that we're setting for standard for the inevitable integration of Blue One and Widerøe pilots to the same list.”

To me this is another smoke and mirror attempt, this is about ex BU and SAS. The only reason it is brought up is that is “legitimates” ex BU claim for a better deal.
Theoretically if SAS and ex BU pilots made a deal tomorrow that merged the lists based on date of hire, would ex BU then demand that ex LIN and ex SC got the same deal for them to sign?


Gentlemen we need to focus our attention on management not each other, make a deal ex BU and SAS can live with and get on with it!

Regards

Heavydane

Ramrise

When Heavydane says the following he hits the nail on the head:

"we don't need to strike to get a new agreement! You do!"

This will be the defining moment of this process. If it comes to a strike over this we will have a situation with no winners and only one loser. We, Pfor, will just keep what we have always had, nothing more, nothing less. Whereas BU will lose everything.

If you find yorself in a hole, stop digging!



Regards,

Ramrise

Wiskey

I feel better now, knowing Ramrise & HeavyD. have been misinformed, or by them selves come to the wrong conclusion in how next year negotiation will be done. Get it touch with your union and get the latest update!!

heavydane

Hi Wiskey,

Please enligthen me as to where I am wrong.
This could be very interesting.

Regards

Heavydane

Ramrise

I must admit that I feel the same as Heavydane. I also don't quite see where the confusion lies. We, Pfor, will have the only valid contract after april 1. next year. And that is where SBF will roll over and die. It may take awhile, but die it will.


As to the quality of the info our union sends out, I have ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE in it. In fact, I would recommend that you, Wiskey, get in touch with JLS and ask him exactly what is going on. But even that might not help if JLS is doing exactly what your lawyer A. is telling him to do.

I am starting to get the feeling that SBF's reliance on the belief that norwegian law will save them, is what will doom them. Eventually even your patron saint, PJ, will tire of you and the fact that approximately 350 pilots is holding back HIS integration. He will not let a small group stop him and when he looks for the easiest road block to move, all he is going to see is SBF. Such are the workings of the real world and it is coming. Anybody who thinks that he is going to pick a fight with approximately 2000 pilots is, to be blunt, not too bright, or lives in a world of illusion. Think about the consequences for the 4 SK companies next year. Do you honestly believe that 350 norwegian pilots will be allowed to come in the way of JL's dream of a multibillion kroner profit in 2006. Of course not.

I would highly recommend the BU pilots to go over the proposed deal again. The deal to join kombilisten is not THAT bad. You have already gotten our pay scale and penisons, which includes LoL. Much better than the one you had. This was simply given to you. And you have still to live up to your end of the deal. This is why people are starting to tire of you. Eventually you will look like a small group of small children waiting for the next handout, and when it doesn't come, the crying starts. No disrespect is meant by the comparison above. You should know that at somepoint your good standing with PJ will degrade and then he WILL have to turn to the only group that can deliver.

Regards,

Ramrise

Wiskey

Time will show. My confident SBF's info will not be on this website, but Ramrise, once again you are not all correct. When I went on to SK payscale my pay got frozen until your scale caught up...... The pension is not yet the same, still to get negotiated upon. I have the feeling there will only be loosers in this process. Good Luck!!

Kingsnake

Why not Wiskey??

Come on, tell us! Secrets from your fellow pilots?? Why???

Brgds Kingsnake

heavydane

Wiskey,

I think You may have confused Norwegian law with common law, we have an agreement in writing with SAS, about who have the next contract!
If You belive that BR´s cheap trics will work Your are wrong, we will shut the hole place down indefinitely rather than let You have Your own contract because we have it in writing! If You think You can make a deal with us and then afterwards go cry to a Norwegian layer/court You are wrong!!

Regards

Heavydane

Hotel Charlie

Sound a little desperate there heavydane. Guess only SAS Braathens will be left then, don´t you think. Kind of dumb to shoot oneself in the foot maybe?!??
Good luck to ya´!

Ramrise

Hotel Charlie,

Lets make a crazy assumption: next spring it turns out that SAS will not negotiate with you guys. No matter what you say they just will not. Are you going to strike??

Because we will if SAS says that they will negotiate with SBF.

I am not worried or desparate. I am, in fact, feeling good about the situation right now. Good being a relative thing of course. The last month or so has assured me that things are going our way.

Again, what are you going to do??

Regards,

Ramrise

Cloudius

Just for info. This statement was received from the management:

“BUSK-avtal” (trepartsavtalet)
SAS och pilotföreningarna har diskuterat situationen avseende förhandlings- och kollektivavtalsfrågan i
SAS Braathens.
Norsk arbetsrätt innebär att fler än en part inom samma verksamhet har möjlighet att teckna
kollektivavtal. Detta har pilotföreningarna varit informerade om sedan tidigt i de så kallade ”tre-partsförhandlingarna”
om etablering av SAS Braathens under 2004 (”BUSK-avtalet”). Vidare innebär
arbetsrättslig praxis i Norge att innehållet utfallsmässigt för enskilda individer skall vara jämställda, även
om det är fler än ett kollektivavtal. Detta innebär att, om det är fler än ett avtal, skall avtalen i stort skall ge
samma utfall för medarbetarna oavsett föreningstillhörighet.

I ”BUSK-avtalet” anges att det skall vara ett avtal för piloterna i SAS Braathens. Berörda parter är eniga
om att kollektivavtal tecknas med NSF/Pilotföreningarna i deras egenskap av största förening och att
eventuellt avtal därefter ingås med SBF med oändrat innehåll.

Relationer fackföreningar emellan är dock en fråga för berörda föreningar och SAS kan inte aktivt delta i
den sortens mellanhavanden då ansvaret ligger hos just föreningarna.

Med vennlig hilsen
Håvard Vestgren, Vice President Flight Operations
Frode Lenning, Base Flight Manager
SAS Braathens

Cloudius

Ramrise

Am I the only one who is thinking this is the silence before the storm??

Regards,

Ramrise

heavydane

Ramrise,

We are at least two!

Regards

Heavydane

Machcruise

Vestergren's mail is strange:

If the company has agreed to negotiate with p.for, why is there a need to negotiate with other unions ? If the only thing they can achieve is the same ? In my ears it seems quite funny to even have other unions if their limits to achievment in negotiations with the company are allready set by p.for.

If "One union" is a part of the "trepartsavtalen" together with FNL and parity, and "trepartsavtalen" is needed to successfully merger the two companies, then what is this discussion about ?

In order to achieve parity 143 pilots in SK-Swe, Sk-Dk and SASbraathens will have to get the oportunity to accept Commander upgrade in SASbraathens. The alternative is for them to stay on their respective base, decline commander upgrade and recieve an FPC-compensation. Let's just say that all of them accepts. 143 commander upgrades ????

It seems to be another option which seems cheaper to achieve parity.

If "trepartsavtalen" dictates what is needed for a successful intergration then these items must be met in order to complete it. What is the alternative ? Separate operations ? Fine by me!
Can management accept the extra costs this implies ? And what can they do about it, if not ? What would they do ?


If there is too many pilots employed in SASBraathens, as already published how will this be solved ? The agreements around FNL dictates how it's done. Only ex-bu-pilots will take the fall. What about the other way around: too many pilots in SAS. Then the agreement states that only ex-sk-pilots shall deal with this. Problem is in defining the number of pilots. Because according to the union, all norwegian pilots flying in DK and SE shall not count as they shall be transferred back to norway before a number is defined. This again will create alot of overcapacity in Norway, and as the agreement states: ex-bu-pilots will need to negotiate once again. Is this for real ?

I don't know the answers, but it sure will be interesting to see.

Wiskey

Machcruiser

1) There will be more than one union after 01/04/06 even if the "trepartsavtalen" states otherwise.

2) The major union like Pfor can not negotiate on behalf / or achieve result that gives the smaller union a worse deal. It is common practise to let the biggest union negotiate first. The result might be different if all parts accept, for example the way the vacations will be handled etc...

3) It is not correct to ad all Norwegian SAS pilots, and put this number of pilots into SASBraathens. The number of pilots should be according to the production adding to SASBraathens (aprox 290 100% positions from each company). As of today, the number of SAS-pilots into SASBraathens are increasing by the month, which makes it even more difficult to handle when the time comes, because;

4) yes, there will be redundancies in SASBraathens next year, which ex BU must handle by forcing pilots down to 75% positions.....

The SASBraathens management is pushing all our problems in front of them, and it is piling up...... what a year it will be in 2006!!!!

Machcruise

You are right about not looking forward to 2006

But if you say there will be more than one union despite what the "trepartsavtalen" states, isn't that agreement void ? And what would the consequences be if that happends ?

The reason I'm asking is because LFT has approved an AOC based partly on that agreement beeing made between the unions. Isn't it therefore likely that LFT will reconcider the bases of issuing that AOC? We have allready been told that LFT is constantly evaluating this AOC approval partially because of the bad working environment. A breakdown of "trepartsavtalen" would further put pressure on SASBraathens to come up with a solution to satisfy LFT to maintain that AOC ?

As to number 3 on your list: What's correct or not is really not the essens here. It is how the agreements are interpreted that matters. And retorically I ask how do you interpret the agreements ?

best regards
Machcruiser

Wiskey

Hi.

I agree with the AOC/LFT and broken agreement, but as mentioned, the management are postponing all problems until next year, and they have until March of getting the captain-parity, but I guess the "trepartsavtalen" will be broken....

As to my nr 3, there is as far as I know an agreement to follow the law of "virksomhetsoverdragelse", and in according to this law there should not be adding more personnel into the new company than production.

regards W

Machcruise

This maybe one of the points of the agreement I may not have fully understood, because: When SAS-NO and BRA was mergered there was quite a bit of work laid down from lawyers in analyzing how to do this. What they came up with was that all norwegian Sk-pilots flying from the OSL, STO and CPH base would be transferred into the new SASBraathens, and then "leased" out again to their respective bases to continue their original production. I believe this is the reason why SASBraathens is successively transferring norwegian pilots back to OSL-base. These pilots have their employment with SASbraathens and would therefore not count in the surplus in DK and SE.

There may of course be other reasons for this, so I'm not going to predict the consequences of this.

Let's just all hope that we can all steer clear of any more lay-offs in the future, because what this boiles down to is collegues loosing their job either from former SK or BRA and it would be a shame to see that happend.

Mc

Ramrise

Wiskey,

your idea that SAS can only transfer a certain number of pilots into SAS-BU is totally ridiculous. It does however fit your view of the world perfectly as you would benefit greatly from this. Again at the expense of others. But, it is too late. The train has left the station and you are not on it.

Mach,

The norwegian pilots are actually employed in two different places, both SAS-BU and the consortium. They do count towards the surplus in SAS.


Regards,

Ramrise

Wiskey

Ramrise, I know you like to set the law aside, but as long as there is no doubt of SASBraathens as a new company, is made by two former airlines, and the law of "virksomhetsoverdragelse" is to be used during this process, all redundancies should be taken care of or defined by number, in advance of the integration.
YOU don't even have to agree!