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-   -   Red Arrows Replacement............ (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/665386-red-arrows-replacement.html)

blimey 8th April 2025 20:17

Do what we did before the Arrows - a squadron display team.

Stuck On The Ground 8th April 2025 20:26


Originally Posted by blimey (Post 11862980)
Do what we did before the Arrows - a squadron display team.

Have you any idea how busy the squadrons are? Easy in the 50s when there were scores of them.

teeonefixer 8th April 2025 20:27


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 11862786)
Sorry for the late reply.

I’m sure you will know by now that I’m a big fan of the Hawk as a training jet and it worked brilliantly for everything the RAF had up to and including Typhoon (certainly in its early days). It’s still doing a good job now.

For the future though the Hawk would need such a redesign in terms of manoeuvrability and sensors (simulated or otherwise) that it would effectively become a new aircraft and it would be just as easy to start from scratch.

Remember that the Hawk IS a dead project so this is a moot point but it could do a good job with a significant avionics upgrade and skip the handling side of things.

The idea of an avionics enhancement has been talked about since the early days of the T2 and I can’t imagine it has progressed any further.

BV

The guys at Brough had fitted a full-width working F35-style display to the demonstrators but I don't think they had the associated sensors. I wonder if lack of company investment cooled the MoD interest, but they didn't have the will or funds, anyhow.

Davef68 8th April 2025 21:41

The great John Farley wrote an interesting critique on here as to why the Hawk (and especially the wing) was not suitable for a 21st Century trainer. The proposed Advanced Hawk for India may have addressed some of those issues, but it’s a dead duck.

The T-7 might be an option, but has its own woes. The fact the M346 has its origins in a joint project with Russia back in the day shouldn’t count against it. It’s in-service and seems to be quite liked by it’s users.

West Coast 8th April 2025 22:05

Outsource to the Chinese, put the red in red arrows.

teej013 9th April 2025 12:01

If you are trying to recruit the modern Yoof,
Just make it a VR Flying Display App on your Mobile.

chopper2004 23rd April 2025 18:47

Dont laugh, West Coast I was impressed with seeing the then new UAEAF L-15 Falcon perform at Dubai Air Show 2023 (my pics below)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a0bbda0cab.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ae4e63f993.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ed0f63c642.jpg

At Dubai Air show 2021, (first proper air show head on the heels of the pandemic), saw the Jl-15 for the first time as China keen to export it.

cheers

Top West 50 23rd April 2025 18:57


Originally Posted by blimey (Post 11862980)
Do what we did before the Arrows - a squadron display team.

I thought we needed 9 aircraft for a display team, like the French or Italians?

chevvron 23rd April 2025 19:03


Originally Posted by Davef68 (Post 11863017)
The T-7 might be an option, but has its own woes. The fact the M346 has its origins in a joint project with Russia back in the day shouldn’t count against it. It’s in-service and seems to be quite liked by it’s users.

It's Italian in origin.; Franco Bonazzi and Ricardo Durione who used to display every Farnborough Airshow must have had a hand developing it; they looped and rolled the PD 808 bizjet.

Bill Macgillivray 23rd April 2025 19:05

Top West 50,

.-- or maybe even 22 ? !!

chevvron 23rd April 2025 19:06


Originally Posted by Top West 50 (Post 11872366)
I thought we needed 9 aircraft for a display team, like the French or Italians?

22 in the case of the Black Arrows.

pr00ne 24th April 2025 10:49


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 11872374)
22 in the case of the Black Arrows.

Once, and then with aircraft and pilots from other squadrons.

POBJOY 24th April 2025 14:40

Firebirds 'Twinkle Roll'
 

Originally Posted by BEagle (Post 11862107)
That didn't work for 'The Firebirds' 60 years ago and would be hardly likely to work today.

I suspect there were all sorts of serviceability issues, but I do remember a Firebirds formation 'twinkle roll' that looked very good to a young Air Cadet at the time.

Mind you the ATC could rise to occasions if required, and did so at a Swanton Morley Aero club display in the 60's.
An unlikely combination of two Cadet MK3 and a Slingsby Swallow.
The Mk3's were aero towed into position by a couple of Tiger Moths and the Swallow was winch launched up between them on the run in.
No practice or briefing other than the winch driver was instructed by a pye radio in the cab.
No one had realised that the radio was inaudible with the winch engine running and therefore the lone staff cadet had to 'wing it' so to speak and give it full chat when it looked right.
The Mk3's/ Tigers hove into sight and then the Swallow was launched through the gap and slightly behind at which point the Tigers broke off and the Swallow slipped into the lead (no doubt with suitable use of the air brakes). This unusual formation then proceeded to do a couple of descending formation turns over the field and then broke with the Swallow giving a fly past. The fretwork fighters were stars of the day, and had included Ladley and King who no doubt wished they still had their Tempests, Hurricanes, and Spitfires to play with. The lone winching staff cadet in true ATC tradition was of course forgotten and had to walk back to the hangar. In fact later in the week he was rewarded by being sent off in the Swallow as a treat, and a wonderful treat it was !!!

chevvron 24th April 2025 15:36

One Farnborough, there was a display consisting of a motor glider towing a sailplane. The motor glider had a retractable towline and displayed in synchro.
The sailplane pilot was the late Chis Rollings who started as a staff cadet with 613 (Halton) GS and became a national coach with the BGA.
He and I were on the same ATC Squadron (2204 Chesham) and I was a minor staff cadet alongside him.
He was the second ever instructor to be awarded 'B' Cat wings while still a cadet.

Geriaviator 24th April 2025 16:56


Originally Posted by Top West 50 (Post 11872366)
I thought we needed 9 aircraft for a display team, like the French or Italians?

These are days of restricted budgets, Sir. We can't afford nine, prepare to be thrilled by the Inthered Arrow. Singular.

BEagle 24th April 2025 17:03

I recall rather a surprising display at an RAF Air Show once - 4 Chipmunks of East Midlands University Air Squadron flew a superb synchronised formation display. It wasn't close formation, but a very cleverly synchronised series of manoeuvres. It was a brilliantly novel display!

chevvron 24th April 2025 17:33


Originally Posted by Geriaviator (Post 11872958)
These are days of restricted budgets, Sir. We can't afford nine, prepare to be thrilled by the Inthered Arrow. Singular.

Snowbirds, Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Skyblazers all used 4 aircraft as did the 'original' Linton Blades and the Red Pelicans.(who I saw practicing at Little Rissington in 1962).


Gordon Brown 24th April 2025 18:20


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 11872977)
Snowbirds, Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Skyblazers all used 4 aircraft as did the 'original' Linton Blades and the Red Pelicans.(who I saw practicing at Little Rissington in 1962).

Two days ago you wanted 22. Now 4 will suffice?

Expatrick 24th April 2025 18:31

Surely, in terms of inspiring young people to join the RAF, even just one, doing spectacular things, regularly, across the Country would be enough to generate a "I want to do that"?

Biggus 24th April 2025 19:43

I thought both the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds used 6 aircraft in their displays?


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