Red Arrows Replacement............
 

Let me make one thing perfectly clear - I have no knowledge of matters military. However, this link has just been sent to me. Is this a wind-up?
Iconic RAF Red Arrows jets in danger of being replaced by Russian planes loved by Putin in move slammed as 'outrageous' | The Sun

Typical of any newspaper called the Sun. Just a teeny-tiny shred of truth and the rest is BS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenia...i_M-346_Master

I have always though that some ex US Navy T45 Goshawks could be OK.

Or some ex RSAF mk65, 65/A's, now that 88 Display Sqn are converting to mk165's ?

Given that the HS1182 was selected in 1971, contracts were place in 1972, it first flew in 1974 and entered RAF service in 1976 as the Hawk T Mk 1, unless 't Bungling Baron Waste o'Space has lost all the plans it shouldn't take more than 5 years to design and deliver a Hawk T Mk 3?

Government funding and a prompt decision would be vital, of course!

Ex-USN Goshawks would doubtless face ITAR restrictions and Trumptarrifs and surely would NOT be a wise procurement decision.

With Brough long closed after the last Hawk delivery, where would they build them...?

BEagle et al
 

I’m a big fan of the Hawk but even I don’t believe we need a simple Hawk T3 (moot point because it cannot and will not happen). We need a new design. Either buy one that is already in production or design a totally new one. And that new design needs to be something better than the Aeralis jet.

BV

And has been pointed out elsewhere, the timeline is such that whatever is going to be bought pretty much has to be already flying a test and development programme at the very least, which is not Aeralis, so which leaves just 3 options, and only one of them is built in Europe...which likely leaves just the one realistic option?

Its possible that France might go down the Aeralis type modular route given the link with Aeralis and Babcock France, signed last year, as their timeline for Alpha Jet replacement is a further 10 years later around 2040-ish...??

Bob Viking, where there's a will, there's a way surely?

Why do you think that an updated Hawk wouldn't make a good advanced training aeroplane?

The choice of RAF trainer appears to be determined primarily by cost. The JP was replaced by the Tucano, which was in turn replaced by the Prefect. Part of the Hawk course has now been replaced by the Texan. So despite the fact that the performance of the Typhoon is somewhat better than many of its predecessors the performance of the trainers we are using that lead up to it are a step backwards in many ways, I doubt the Prefect or indeed the Texan will do 300Kt low level nav They are however better equipped with more modern electronics.

We certainly need an advanced trainer with a modern glass cockpit, were they available then a Hawk with such a fit would be adequate. Sadly we will need it before it coud be re-imagined and our current Hawk engines are not covering themselves in glory!

The US has I believe updated their T38s as a stop gap measure. I wonder if there are any Hawks kicking around worldwide with enough fatigue left that could receive a similar treatment to tide us over.

Should have kept Dunsfold open.

Isn't the whole point in a national display team that they represent the country, it's air force and the personification of perfection. Something for it's people to be proud of, future pilots to look up to and so on?
If we cannot give a British display team a British Aircraft then what's the point? Disband and have done with it.

Strongly disagree there. I don’t think most people know or care what aircraft the Arrows fly and similarly most people (at least the casual crowd that go to public displays, not air shows) would also assume they’re flying some kind of modern fighter jet. If you were to widely publicise that they’re flying some relatively old low performance trainer that would take the shine off.

It’s about waving the flag. Yes, a British airframe would be nice but it’s the show that counts.

On the other hand, if someone were to produce a short run of lightnings, that would of course be different!

That didn't work for 'The Firebirds' 60 years ago and would be hardly likely to work today.

here is the answer - now just reframe the question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing–Saab_T-7_Red_Hawk

Given the current need to show some love to the US and it is a saab tie in with an established BAE relationship

so it is either that

or

if we want to be independent then it is probably the T-50


given we have no money - it seems a twin engined trainer no matter where it is made i can see the Ferrari Yak being on the cards any time soon

I know, I know, they don’t handle well for displays. They are nice though.

I can hear the commentator now.
"And here are the Red Arrows. Sponsored this year by the Dubai Tourist Board and led by Francois Michelin (on loan from the French Airforce) and flying their new Fokkers (on loan from the German air force). The six aircraft (due to cutbacks) trailing their RGBT colours as they form into `Peace Heart`."
Of course you won't see them due to safety measures not allowing them to fly over anything any more.

I agree, the T7 fits best, appropriate name actually: Red Hawk. In all likelihood it could be selected by the RAF as its advanced trainer without even considering the Reds.

For now the Red Arrows will probably soldier on with the Hawks. The obvious example of being the Snowbirds.

With all the budget cuts, the Red Barrows might get a promotion. :)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2d0833d902.jpg

Simply bin the reds and use the savings to increase the front line assets. The whole point was to Showcase British excellence and manufacturing, if they are not being built anymore, then some Johnny Foreign type or someone else’s cast offs do neither of those things.

Or you could… wince… buy new Hawks from India. But then that’s not British excellence and manufacturing, more like British nostalgia.

the RAF fiddles while Rome burns !

NATO in disarray , the markets in chaos, the Ukraine War blasts on ,Israel / Palestine still at loggerheads and the old order being torn apart by the madman Trump - and the big worry for the ever diminishing RAF is the Red Arrows !

cool in a crisis or just ‘ plane ‘stupid ?

To stir up a discussion - I would replace them ,when the Hawks are eventually worn out, with a re-invented Blades team. Much cheaper, stays much closer to the crowd and just as impressive! ( with ex Arrows pilots ) but
probably not enough noise for our image conscious leaders !

if it has to be a jet why not the part British made Typhoon - could not a dozen Typhoons be spared the axe and extended for a few years ??
it would be a VERY impressive ,world beating team and could maybe even be used in a crisis with a few missiles bolted on !

But it is American and if we have learnt one lesson of late, it is to not buy US.

If it was left to the Sun they would have Spitfires , which would till be world beating. But these are difficult times and one does have to ask if the Reds are really affordable now that we have become a second level country in most things . The French are still using Alpha jets aren't they -similar vintage to the Hawk. If they could be integrated with the training demands maybe cutting down the number of events might that financially??

Starkey, Tim Davies (a shareholder), Aeralis and their paymasters Barzan in that terrorist supporting #### hole of Qatar. It all sounds a bit desperate for something that doesn’t even exist! Two-years? Really 🤔 lead time on a F124 motor before Leonardo just order c70 yeah, blows that out the window 😂😂

Bit late for that (F35)

Find it hard to imagine that anyone asking ‘if they are affordable’ is genuine.

Britain is still a huge military power. Not in sheer numbers but in skill and capability. Of course a display team is affordable. It’s literally peanuts compared to service pensions, for example.

So much negativity here!

They could always be replaced with some of these. Flown remotely from a high security base in Lincolnshire.

Blimey, didn't know pilots could be that small!

The RAF should ask DRAKEN for a few of their spare L-159s.

Take a look at the thread Grey Ladies

Of course the Red Arrows should go. We have a war to fight (or at least deter) and they just suck up money and personnel that could be used on other things. So should BBMF too!
The RAF's job is too fly and fight - everything else is ......
The trainer question is easy - order 25 346s tomorrow . Other options are either way overspeced (T-7 and KA-50) and Aeralis even if it was a good idea going to take too long to develop.
The longer we wait the more pain and cost it will take to get T2s to end of service

Why use a trainer at all? Use a current frontline aircraft type and then when needed the elite group form a 'Wing' and off to war they go, all current and upto speed! It'll never catch on! Save money and training!

If we can't afford to support a display team of 12 aircraft (which is literally one squadron without much logistics) how can we afford to fight a war? Yeah, that's right. We don't have the kit or money to fight a war.

So obviously we should not waist effort on fluff then

The T-7 is more SAAB with a Boeing badge, the first 4 were conformed in Sweden before conformity-the US is requiring this more and more for military aircraft- and LRIP in the states. Still with the flight control issues I believe latest projection is 2027 for entry into service. Maybe as mentioned here we need a replacement for the Hawk immediately, we should look at the T-50 but not familiar with that aircraft myself. Or if Aeralis pull their finger out and they are who they claim to be then......
I'm seeing some Hawk suppliers really are taking advantage, one of my contacts has been trying to get an air starter overhauled for a foreign customer. It's taken 2 years and counting, the price and lead time astronomical, and Safran refuse to give approval to do it himself. The MOD use them.

BEagle
 

Sorry for the late reply.

I’m sure you will know by now that I’m a big fan of the Hawk as a training jet and it worked brilliantly for everything the RAF had up to and including Typhoon (certainly in its early days). It’s still doing a good job now.

For the future though the Hawk would need such a redesign in terms of manoeuvrability and sensors (simulated or otherwise) that it would effectively become a new aircraft and it would be just as easy to start from scratch.

Remember that the Hawk IS a dead project so this is a moot point but it could do a good job with a significant avionics upgrade and skip the handling side of things.

The idea of an avionics enhancement has been talked about since the early days of the T2 and I can’t imagine it has progressed any further.

Basically, it’s done a great job, continues to do a good job but, if a replacement is being sought (which CAS says is the case) then there are many better options than a fresh design in terms of cost and timeline.

If money weren’t an object I’d love to see a fresh British design. But from what I’ve seen so far I’m afraid I firmly believe the Aeralis isn’t it, as much as I’d love it be.

BV

It’s a Qatari ponzi scheme and they’ve designed a 21 Century response to ASR 397. Low wing? Jeez, that’s an engineer designing a low risk, low performance platform to address as 3rd Gen problem. Avionics? Hardly from the U.K. they’re all French. Mission system and other capabilities in this area? German. Landing Gear? Canadian. Engine? US/Taiwan and subject to the ITAR, good luck getting one in the vaunted 2-years! And when you default to their latest LinkedIn post you know the game is up and the Qatari terrorist supporting and investing bastards are looking to pull the plug.

DD
 

That’s quite the rant. Did a Middle Eastern gentlemen steal your wife?!

BV

(Just banter, I’m not serious).

😂😂😂😂😂

Did a Middle Eastern gentlemen steal your wife boyfriend, more like..:E