Undervalued Engineers?
 

Apparently a lack of Engineers is one of the underlying causes for delays in the fg trg system: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...aining-crisis/

Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?

Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?

Is there any chance of posting the article please because I don't want to subscribe to the Torygraph and, given I had direct experience with the engineer training system, would like to comment. Hence I am interested to learn the contents of the article.

Genuine question
 

I am asking because I do not know for a fact but exactly how many of the engineers at RAF Shawbury are military?

My guess would be that they are civilian contractors like they are at RAF Valley.

I stand to be corrected though.

BV

I have not read the Torygraph article as I too am not a subscriber.

"Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?"

My general advice to those UK youngsters who ask me is 1) be very cautious about going into degree-level* engineering roles in the armed forces (or associated bits of the civil service); 2) be very cautious about considering a life based on an engineering career within the UK (and I point out that getting outside the UK is now very much harder than it once was).

The ones who do ask me tend to be most interested in RAF or RN. My observation is that after talking it through with me, most tend to set aside the armed forces, but nonetheless to still study an engineering degree - either with an intent to then leave the UK, or to leave engineering. So far none who have asked me have gone on to study engineering at university and then to subsequently join the forces, which makes me think that by the time they have graduated they have formed even clearer views of the unattractiveness of the 'offer'.

The ones who I have watched go into the associated bits of the civil service tend to be attracted by the unsackability combined with not having to wear a uniform/etc and go anywhere dangerous/etc, plus not actually being the best of the crop (because real industry takes those). I am sure there are exceptions, but those are my observations.

* I give different advice at non-degree skilled trades levels. Frankly the quality of the skilled engineering trades education 'offer' in the UK is so poor that almost the only place to go is within the armed forces. That also says a lot about engineering in the UK.

I give different advice to non-UK youngsters. For example to the US-youngsters I say "go for it".

KnC - nothing of substance for you to comment on

Statement without any evidence or any in depth analysis; Dannatt and West saying more money needed and an 'it wasn't me guv' and 'something must be done now' from Ben Wallace.

MoD's usual something is happening but it has no real effect on defence:rolleyes:

Here are a few extracts retrieved by devious means:

Once upon a time, we had a large army, navy & airforce and consequently lots of engineers doing their time and leaving in their 40s with a service pension.

These people still needed jobs and with a lot of military work being given to private companies, they were snapped up. They were perhaps not on high wages, but with their pensions, they did okay.

Roll on to today and these jobs still exist, but there are now fewer people about to fulfil these roles. As the contracts for this work usually goes to the lowest bidder, companies still want to pay the same sort of salaries. However, there aren’t so many who have the benefit of a pension to boost their take home pay. Skilled engineers are looking elsewhere, where their skills are appreciated and recompensed accordingly.

This issue has been brewing for some time, but it’s been heads in the sand and hoping it would go away. It’ll get worse unless more money is put on the table.

There are no blue suits spannering the training fleets, only blue suits at OCUs. So its a lack of civvies (inc. ex-mil) that want to work at these places.

When the creeping cancer of contractorisation fist began to afflict the RAF, my question to one of the snake-oil salesmen peddling the concept was "Where will you get the future generations of suitable people if you do away with military people in the short term?"

To which there was a 'guppy fish at feeding time' open mouth and no ideas level of response. "Someone else's problem by then, I guess", I concluded....

When the UK armed forces contracted in the late 70s and 80s there was a rush of great engineering personnel into civilian roles, about the same time the civilian companies reduced their apprentice intakes dramatically, in fact, some stopped recruiting completely.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.

This is a problem of both a shrinking UK military and an expanding export market. A much smaller pool of military engineers from which to recruit for UK contractor led support. Add to this the export of the likes of Typhoon to new markets that lean on UK ex-mil recruitment, and Boeing exporting Apache to the likes of Australia, Poland and needing contractor support to US Forces in Germany, Middle East and the like, amongst others. The same applies to Typhoon QFI and QWI's, Apache aircrew instructors et al. UK struggles to recruit for a smaller workforce and the external pull factors are vast.

" KnC - nothing of substance for you to comment on "

Really ?...I am actually capable of thinking for myself, thank you, so, I will.

First, thanks to all who provided the full article which, it seems, is directed at Shawbury and, as has now been established, the alleged shortage of civilian contractors.

That said, my views relate to the last paragraph posted by the OP.
First, there have been significant changes within the RAF, but, some aspects remain the same.

The good bits. AT is very much alive and well. Lossie was a very popular first tour for many. in this respect. The gym has replaced the bar. Tertiary education opportunities are now far more extensive, and available. Gone are the days, when I applied to do "A" level English and was told, quote " I won't enrol you for an A level, you are an airman "...thanks.. t%^t ! The annual assessment farce now tends to negate, but not always, the embittered SNCO's. Promotion however is problematic.

The RAF has never really been capable of a promotion stream for airmen. Today, once you've made it to SAC (Tech) you are no longer judged on your professional ability alone. You will have a secondary duty and, a tertiary duty ("voluntary"..cough !) Assuming you make Cpl, you then face a very long wait to Sgt.

The potential recruit demographic has also changed. Very few came straight from school, several had dropped out of tertiary education, many had a service family background, hence they chose, wisely, the RAF or had considered the RN. Whilst they came from across the UK, the N.East was fertile recruitment territory. Most had life experience .

There was, however, one other what you might call uniting factor. VERY, VERY few had ambitions to progress to their personal snot and wee encrusted chair in the Sgts Mess. Joining the RAF was another way of compiling a varied CV...to get them started in the real world where such is expected. .

Conditions. I visited Brize (day trip) Coningsby, Wittering and Odiham. Stayed in a transit block at Coningsby, Sgt's Mess at the others. Encountered "pay to starve", already done to death on here (pun intended) I know. Wittering Sgt's Mess Annexe should have had a sign "Sponsored by the RAF / IW Museum" it was that ancient. Had an "exchange" of views with some pious Flt.Lt in the Combined Mess for wearing a fleece... at breakfast !....he lost ! but, also revelation as to how one Sqdn, c/o their senile W.O treated AMM's "tyre kickers and arm wavers ". Contrast this to Odiham where somebody had done some thinking. True, on arrival, they went on the Line, but, then they were gradually introduced to Depth (second line for our elderly contributors) plus, they would do an OOA, but, wherever possible, would also get a jolly somewhere. The logic being, Odiham wanted them back as techs...seemingly, from a cross section we spoke to, this worked very well.

Training.

True, it has been significantly diluted to the bare basics which did the baby AMM's no favours, but did ensure they were considered safe to work on live aircraft. In theory, they did 18months before returning for the tech course. Strangely, this period became shorter, certainly for Avionics engineers. Training delivery styles have also evolved...I was a big fan / practitioner of EBT / VLE because the student was more actively involved with the instructor almost taking a back seat, obviously teaching the basics, but then more mentoring and encouraging the trainee to develop themselves, and, their knowledge. Got two commendations in fact for innovative delivery....plus having a sense of humour.

It was, at times, very frustrating as to the level of engineering, practical and theoretical, we could deliver. Some of the module handouts were " dire" .

I will say, when asked about the future, I encouraged trainees to apply for transport or rotary ..and avoid the FJ world if possible.

There was one other constant however. There remained a cadre of "resistant to change at all cost" SNCO's and, the well established incompetence of the Engineering Branch members.

'Twas ever thus ......

Nigh on 40 years back when I started my first Engineering Degree, it was being vigorously promoted in all the broadsheets and "meeja" that any kind of Engineering and especially Mechanical Engineering & Trades qualifications were just irrelevant relics of the past and Accountancy & Services were the way of the future.

It all conveniently forgot that the economy still needs a minimum number of people to grease the wheels of industry, the Accountants' BMW's still needed serviced and people who are working today have this annoying habit of getting old, retiring and eventually dying, making it difficult to encourage them to continue working.

And gosh, darn it, wouldn't you know that the poorer countries who were still training hordes of engineers that the Broadsheets, Politicians etc. all confidently predicted would be fighting each other with 5h1tty sticks just for the chance to come to the UK largely decided that the while the grass maybe was greener here they were overall better off not migrating here to be patronised and paid buttons.They might still be being paid buttons on a global payscale, but they didn't have to move too far away from home, get used to a different climate & friends & family stayed in the same time zone.

There was a small filip in the numbers of Engineers being publicly acknowledged as necessary about a decade or more ago, but we've been relying on having other countries do our Engineering for us for too long whilst our own population has aged and died. You can rely on "High Value Engineering Centres", i.e. design offices stacked with inexperienced but cheap graduates overseas for paper engineering for so long, but once you lose your practically-skilled core of people your then start to pay through the nose and be vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

Sow the wond,reap the whirlwind etc., etc. As someone who assesses Engineers for their professional competence on behalf of one of the Institutes, I can honestly say that there are still good Engineers coming through, but there are a whole lot more of them who are not, and never will be UK-based.

Much is being made of going "Net-Zero", but I don't hear about who is going to design, install, maintain, decommission and recycle all of the wind turbines, hydro schemes etc. and their associated transmission and connection systems in the near, medium or long term. We need to get back to the old Yorkshire saying of where there's muck there's brass. If you need to do something you HAVE to get your hands dirty & it has to be made financially, societally and individually attractive, otherise people just won't come into the field.

I totally concur with above. I left 2004 after 22 years. Age 40 with a mortgage almost payed off. Left engineering and done an easy job without travelling the world and getting arrsed about . The pension made it do able. The classic elephant in the room here is: Mortgage/rent prices are so hi relative to years ago. I still know guys now who are working civvy for the cash to pay mortgages...nothing wrong with that.....but its all to do with when you were born, unfortunately I believe?

I’m drifting slightly, but several years ago I was talking to a guy who could make just about anything out of a piece of metal, especially if it needed milling or turning. He was just short of retirement, but he told me that when he started his apprenticeship, he was one of an intake of 120 for that year and that was for his trade. At that time, our company had got rid of apprentices and we talked about where his replacement would come from. We knew of very few companies that took on more than two or three.

We now have modern apprenticeships, but whilst they are welcome, they don’t have the same depth that we used to have. Still, better than none at all.

As has been pointed out, we are suffering from a skills shortage everywhere and although companies desperately need the staff, they are reluctant to invest in training because it adds cost to the bottom line. Unfortunately, those in charge are looking to the now and not the future. Beags mentioned that he was told that “it’s someone else’s problem”. Unless we can change that mentality, these issues will get worse.

Totally agree, I cannot get Mechanics or Licenced Engineers to fill the vacancies I have, and civi street wages far outstrips the pay the RAF offers. Plus you get to go home at night.

The RAF website mentions service benefits like subsidised food and gym being a perk that Civilians do not get on top of their wage.

As a Civi engineer I eat very well thank you, as I can afford too, because I get paid a lot more, so do not need subsidised food, no matter how good it isn’t.
My job comes with gym membership, health, dental, eye care, electric car schemes etc..
I can easily afford a mortgage, so some run down cheap married quarter slum is not required either..
Also I too can travel, as they mentioned that as a perk too, though the locals don’t tend to shoot at you on my trips abroad

;)

According to these pay rates, a warrant officers wage doesn’t even come up to that of a LAE’s basic pay and that’s without the extra licences, types ratings, shift allowances etc, in-fact you would be looking at senior Sqn Leader, Wing Commander rates.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/rafpayscales.php

I pay £250/month for my 3 bed quarter and it's clean, up to date and efficient. So I guess that paying a mortgage at your time in life makes you the loser. I paid off my mortgage age 45 :ok:

This statement that relates to the past reflects a route cause of the problems that resulted.

Sounds wonderful doesn’t it, it talks about freeing up expensive trained service personnel and leaving those jobs to cheaper to employ civi’s.
But what happens, you no longer need all these expensive Service personnel as you have cheap civi’s doing the job, so you lay them off, but no matter, you have those cheap civi’s.

Then there becomes a shortage of those civi’s in the rest of the world and the pay rises, so they leave and recruitment falls as the wages are no longer comparable. And you decimated the Service personnel numbers as you no longer needed them , and hence the knock on effect on reduced recruitment.


​​​​​​…

I was using that as an example not a personal experience :)

Then maybe stop posting as an authority on matters if your made up, fictional example is out of date, irrelevant or just wrong.

Not true then? Need I go on?

This year.

https://hellorayo.co.uk/hits-radio/l...-mouldy-homes/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ort-finds.html

https://www.gbnews.com/membership/so...ts-leaks-mould

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-water.html

https://www.helenmorgan.org.uk/news/...homes-revealed

2023 Dec

https://www.forcesnews.com/news/work...eing-done-pace

Lots of research there but tldr, sorry.

https://archive.is/JIixc

Not all LAEs are on 80K. But to get anyone in civvy street unless it is KLM UKE that seem to be having to take on armourers now as ex service source, you pay market rate. Serco, Babcocks etc, will not.

Actually you are a manager if you are pushing vacancies. Is your licence active or current? LAEs basic pay for the smaller regional operations has had to jump as there isn't enough of us. 50% pay rise this year. Love to know what company gives you those perks. Mine doesn't. Been too busy with a knacked bog on a kite with parts on it that shouldn't be on the tank according to all maintenance documentation on the subject!

Yes, yes and yes, I am a manager, licence is active and is current, indeed I use it sometimes.

Krystal n Chips, sorry for the misunderstanding: I looked at the article and it was so devoid of real content there was nothing about the engineers beyond what the OP had quoted e.g. why is there a shortage. It was in no way a comment on your ability to commentate informatively on the issue.

I'm not an engineer but have spent the majority the of my working life in situations where without good engineers and engineering tradespeople I would have been sat twiddling my thumbs. It always staggers me the lack of respect and status engineers are given in a country which was built on engineering innovation and its exploitation.

However, Sir Ben Wallace, the former defence secretary, called on Labour to increase defence spending in the Oct 30 Budget in order to better protect the nation’s security.

He said: “People should be under no illusion that unless Rachel Reeves commits to a date of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence, and increases this spending this year and next year to ensure defence spending matches the rising threat, then defence will be hollowed out and this will put the men and women of our Armed Forces at risk.

“Today it is helicopters. We have already seen the hollowing out of our navy crews. Tomorrow it will be something else.”

Quite visionary ... I wonder what his background was, which allows him such clarity of view ? .......... Oh ! - I see ! :ugh:

Will Ascent/AHUK be penalised for the delays incurred?

We've just had an influx of holdees looking for something to do for 6 months+ due to this hold on flying training.

A similar situation exists in the UK with trained civilian ATC technicians; there aren't enough being trained or on the market sometimes leading to delays in rectifying problems.

Last time I looked £80k was the median when basic plus shift and licence pay was included. I believe United Airlines at LHR are paying in excess of £100k, Virgin is next, Jet2 up in the regions follows that then BA etc. Last I heard from a mate at BA was that all the Virgin guys were jumping to United and BA were filling the gaps at Virgin. Jet2 is even drawing LAEs back from the Sandpit.
Not sure where it's going to end but there seems to be lots of brand new cars in the car park. 😁

The large well-known UK defence contractor I work for is desperate to expand but simply cannot recruit enough trained engineers. They’ve been recruiting like mad for the last couple of years. Our customers all want more production and faster deliveries, especially since the Ukraine events but we’ve let the defence industrial base atrophy and now we can’t increase our pitiful capacity. Short term focussed management and politicians.
Like many others, my father predicted all this 25/30 years ago.

Similar in mine. Maybe its the same company!

The unsurprising result of what happens when you have managers instead of leaders. The managers know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

No, some of us on the line are earning 100K.

That’s good news.

However, earning £100k means you must be doing it for fun as you are clearly no longer a working person 😉

Me

I gained my A+C licences from the Air Registration Board in 1969, a proper document resembling the old British blue passport only maroon colour, becoming only the third licensed engineer in Ireland. We rejoiced in the title of grease-monkeys while many of the chosen few sported their white cuffs and blazers ... in fact even then most people looked down on the mechanical trades until they needed their machinery fixed.

My friend Noel Orr made a shrewd comment when he obtained the Honda motorcycle agency for Northern Ireland in 1970. "In our day most teenagers had dirty fingernails from tinkering with our bikes and old cars. Youngsters now won't get their hands dirty, when their bike needs service they throw it in to me which is fine for my bank balance but I'm already finding it hard to get good mechanics. In Germany they respect all aspects of engineering, here we don't. And that's bad news for this country."

I'm long retired and can't roll under cars or crawl down fuselages any more, but I fear Noel's warning is as true now as it was 54 years ago. My last licences were strips of plastic pockets with bits of paper like bus tickets for each qualification as engineer or pilot. I took grim humour in waving my instrument rating as the bit of paper which had cost me £4000 even using my own aircraft, but I valued my LAE higher than anything else. My LAE number, still crystal clear on my declining brain, is perfect for my bank PIN.

Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw. 2 women are pushing shopping carts at supermarket. One says to the other how is young Manfred doing ? The reply, "He is so disappointed that he didn't get accepted for a Mercedes apprenticeship, I guess he will just have to settle for Medical school.."

We're talking about technicians/fitters/mechanics aren't we? Apprenticeships are what is needed, some even degree apprenticeships. The UK isn't set up to train the required amount of people with the required knowledge. Why on earth would we need them, some people that know better decided that it wouldn't be necessary to maintain that capability. Surely they were paid reassuringly enough money to make good decisions that protect capability at the time and in the future. Surely, they knew best.

As you can tell...this sort of thinking f'ing infuriates me, and it is endemic in the UK.

Don`t worry guys,`AI` is here to solve everything....or so it says on the `tin`...

Depends whom you work for. I don't work for a big player. My B1.1 was not a company freebie and never been in a place to get B2 under the changes of 2012. I work on the line too for one of the worse payers. I am on 25K less. Actually it was 50K less until this year. I see guys spend less time on their 73s on an LC1 than I do on my type.