Undervalued Engineers?
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From: Back of Beyond
Undervalued Engineers?
Apparently a lack of Engineers is one of the underlying causes for delays in the fg trg system: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...aining-crisis/
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
Popular Reply
25th October 2024, 18:33
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514
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From: Oil Capital of Central Scotland
'Twas ever thus ......
Nigh on 40 years back when I started my first Engineering Degree, it was being vigorously promoted in all the broadsheets and "meeja" that any kind of Engineering and especially Mechanical Engineering & Trades qualifications were just irrelevant relics of the past and Accountancy & Services were the way of the future.
It all conveniently forgot that the economy still needs a minimum number of people to grease the wheels of industry, the Accountants' BMW's still needed serviced and people who are working today have this annoying habit of getting old, retiring and eventually dying, making it difficult to encourage them to continue working.
And gosh, darn it, wouldn't you know that the poorer countries who were still training hordes of engineers that the Broadsheets, Politicians etc. all confidently predicted would be fighting each other with 5h1tty sticks just for the chance to come to the UK largely decided that the while the grass maybe was greener here they were overall better off not migrating here to be patronised and paid buttons.They might still be being paid buttons on a global payscale, but they didn't have to move too far away from home, get used to a different climate & friends & family stayed in the same time zone.
There was a small filip in the numbers of Engineers being publicly acknowledged as necessary about a decade or more ago, but we've been relying on having other countries do our Engineering for us for too long whilst our own population has aged and died. You can rely on "High Value Engineering Centres", i.e. design offices stacked with inexperienced but cheap graduates overseas for paper engineering for so long, but once you lose your practically-skilled core of people your then start to pay through the nose and be vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
Sow the wond,reap the whirlwind etc., etc. As someone who assesses Engineers for their professional competence on behalf of one of the Institutes, I can honestly say that there are still good Engineers coming through, but there are a whole lot more of them who are not, and never will be UK-based.
Much is being made of going "Net-Zero", but I don't hear about who is going to design, install, maintain, decommission and recycle all of the wind turbines, hydro schemes etc. and their associated transmission and connection systems in the near, medium or long term. We need to get back to the old Yorkshire saying of where there's muck there's brass. If you need to do something you HAVE to get your hands dirty & it has to be made financially, societally and individually attractive, otherise people just won't come into the field.
Nigh on 40 years back when I started my first Engineering Degree, it was being vigorously promoted in all the broadsheets and "meeja" that any kind of Engineering and especially Mechanical Engineering & Trades qualifications were just irrelevant relics of the past and Accountancy & Services were the way of the future.
It all conveniently forgot that the economy still needs a minimum number of people to grease the wheels of industry, the Accountants' BMW's still needed serviced and people who are working today have this annoying habit of getting old, retiring and eventually dying, making it difficult to encourage them to continue working.
And gosh, darn it, wouldn't you know that the poorer countries who were still training hordes of engineers that the Broadsheets, Politicians etc. all confidently predicted would be fighting each other with 5h1tty sticks just for the chance to come to the UK largely decided that the while the grass maybe was greener here they were overall better off not migrating here to be patronised and paid buttons.They might still be being paid buttons on a global payscale, but they didn't have to move too far away from home, get used to a different climate & friends & family stayed in the same time zone.
There was a small filip in the numbers of Engineers being publicly acknowledged as necessary about a decade or more ago, but we've been relying on having other countries do our Engineering for us for too long whilst our own population has aged and died. You can rely on "High Value Engineering Centres", i.e. design offices stacked with inexperienced but cheap graduates overseas for paper engineering for so long, but once you lose your practically-skilled core of people your then start to pay through the nose and be vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
Sow the wond,reap the whirlwind etc., etc. As someone who assesses Engineers for their professional competence on behalf of one of the Institutes, I can honestly say that there are still good Engineers coming through, but there are a whole lot more of them who are not, and never will be UK-based.
Much is being made of going "Net-Zero", but I don't hear about who is going to design, install, maintain, decommission and recycle all of the wind turbines, hydro schemes etc. and their associated transmission and connection systems in the near, medium or long term. We need to get back to the old Yorkshire saying of where there's muck there's brass. If you need to do something you HAVE to get your hands dirty & it has to be made financially, societally and individually attractive, otherise people just won't come into the field.
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Is there any chance of posting the article please because I don't want to subscribe to the Torygraph and, given I had direct experience with the engineer training system, would like to comment. Hence I am interested to learn the contents of the article.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Near the coast
Genuine question
I am asking because I do not know for a fact but exactly how many of the engineers at RAF Shawbury are military?
My guess would be that they are civilian contractors like they are at RAF Valley.
I stand to be corrected though.
BV
My guess would be that they are civilian contractors like they are at RAF Valley.
I stand to be corrected though.
BV
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 370
Likes: 175
From: Europe
Apparently a lack of Engineers is one of the underlying causes for delays in the fg trg system: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...aining-crisis/
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
"Would any current or ex mil
My general advice to those UK youngsters who ask me is 1) be very cautious about going into degree-level* engineering roles in the armed forces (or associated bits of the civil service); 2) be very cautious about considering a life based on an engineering career within the UK (and I point out that getting outside the UK is now very much harder than it once was).
The ones who do ask me tend to be most interested in RAF or RN. My observation is that after talking it through with me, most tend to set aside the armed forces, but nonetheless to still study an engineering degree - either with an intent to then leave the UK, or to leave engineering. So far none who have asked me have gone on to study engineering at university and then to subsequently join the forces, which makes me think that by the time they have graduated they have formed even clearer views of the unattractiveness of the 'offer'.
The ones who I have watched go into the associated bits of the civil service tend to be attracted by the unsackability combined with not having to wear a uniform/etc and go anywhere dangerous/etc, plus not actually being the best of the crop (because real industry takes those). I am sure there are exceptions, but those are my observations.
* I give different advice at non-degree skilled trades levels. Frankly the quality of the skilled engineering trades education 'offer' in the UK is so poor that almost the only place to go is within the armed forces. That also says a lot about engineering in the UK.
I give different advice to non-UK youngsters. For example to the US-youngsters I say "go for it".
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Hampshire
Statement without any evidence or any in depth analysis; Dannatt and West saying more money needed and an 'it wasn't me guv' and 'something must be done now' from Ben Wallace.
MoD's usual something is happening but it has no real effect on defence
Here are a few extracts retrieved by devious means:
Britain’s security has been put “at risk” because of a helicopter pilot training crisis within the Armed Forces, a former head of the Army has said.
The Telegraph understands that a tranche of new trainee pilots across the three forces are unable to learn how to fly helicopters because the aircraft remain unavailable.
RAF Shawbury – which provides the flying training school for all helicopter crew from the Air Force, Navy and Army – has stopped a significant number of flying lessons because of a lack of engineers to maintain the aircraft.
Ministry of Defence sources acknowledged that there had been a “reduction” in flying training at the base.
...
A senior RAF source insisted that there was “no risk to national security” as a result of the delay in training helicopter pilots.
However, Sir Ben Wallace, the former defence secretary, called on Labour to increase defence spending in the Oct 30 Budget in order to better protect the nation’s security.
He said: “People should be under no illusion that unless Rachel Reeves commits to a date of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence, and increases this spending this year and next year to ensure defence spending matches the rising threat, then defence will be hollowed out and this will put the men and women of our Armed Forces at risk.
“Today it is helicopters. We have already seen the hollowing out of our navy crews. Tomorrow it will be something else.”
...
An MoD spokesman said: “Helicopter aircrew training is continuing, and there is no impact to the number of aircrew available for the front line and we have sufficient numbers to meet our operational requirements.
“It’s not unusual for trainees to have a period where they are fulfilling other tasks before undertaking further training.”
The Telegraph understands that a tranche of new trainee pilots across the three forces are unable to learn how to fly helicopters because the aircraft remain unavailable.
RAF Shawbury – which provides the flying training school for all helicopter crew from the Air Force, Navy and Army – has stopped a significant number of flying lessons because of a lack of engineers to maintain the aircraft.
Ministry of Defence sources acknowledged that there had been a “reduction” in flying training at the base.
...
A senior RAF source insisted that there was “no risk to national security” as a result of the delay in training helicopter pilots.
However, Sir Ben Wallace, the former defence secretary, called on Labour to increase defence spending in the Oct 30 Budget in order to better protect the nation’s security.
He said: “People should be under no illusion that unless Rachel Reeves commits to a date of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence, and increases this spending this year and next year to ensure defence spending matches the rising threat, then defence will be hollowed out and this will put the men and women of our Armed Forces at risk.
“Today it is helicopters. We have already seen the hollowing out of our navy crews. Tomorrow it will be something else.”
...
An MoD spokesman said: “Helicopter aircrew training is continuing, and there is no impact to the number of aircrew available for the front line and we have sufficient numbers to meet our operational requirements.
“It’s not unusual for trainees to have a period where they are fulfilling other tasks before undertaking further training.”
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 906
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From: Southampton
Once upon a time, we had a large army, navy & airforce and consequently lots of engineers doing their time and leaving in their 40s with a service pension.
These people still needed jobs and with a lot of military work being given to private companies, they were snapped up. They were perhaps not on high wages, but with their pensions, they did okay.
Roll on to today and these jobs still exist, but there are now fewer people about to fulfil these roles. As the contracts for this work usually goes to the lowest bidder, companies still want to pay the same sort of salaries. However, there aren’t so many who have the benefit of a pension to boost their take home pay. Skilled engineers are looking elsewhere, where their skills are appreciated and recompensed accordingly.
This issue has been brewing for some time, but it’s been heads in the sand and hoping it would go away. It’ll get worse unless more money is put on the table.
These people still needed jobs and with a lot of military work being given to private companies, they were snapped up. They were perhaps not on high wages, but with their pensions, they did okay.
Roll on to today and these jobs still exist, but there are now fewer people about to fulfil these roles. As the contracts for this work usually goes to the lowest bidder, companies still want to pay the same sort of salaries. However, there aren’t so many who have the benefit of a pension to boost their take home pay. Skilled engineers are looking elsewhere, where their skills are appreciated and recompensed accordingly.
This issue has been brewing for some time, but it’s been heads in the sand and hoping it would go away. It’ll get worse unless more money is put on the table.
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
When the creeping cancer of contractorisation fist began to afflict the RAF, my question to one of the snake-oil salesmen peddling the concept was "Where will you get the future generations of suitable people if you do away with military people in the short term?"
To which there was a 'guppy fish at feeding time' open mouth and no ideas level of response. "Someone else's problem by then, I guess", I concluded....
To which there was a 'guppy fish at feeding time' open mouth and no ideas level of response. "Someone else's problem by then, I guess", I concluded....
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From: UK
When the UK armed forces contracted in the late 70s and 80s there was a rush of great engineering personnel into civilian roles, about the same time the civilian companies reduced their apprentice intakes dramatically, in fact, some stopped recruiting completely.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: United Kingdom
This is a problem of both a shrinking UK military and an expanding export market. A much smaller pool of military engineers from which to recruit for UK contractor led support. Add to this the export of the likes of Typhoon to new markets that lean on UK ex-mil recruitment, and Boeing exporting Apache to the likes of Australia, Poland and needing contractor support to US Forces in Germany, Middle East and the like, amongst others. The same applies to Typhoon QFI and QWI's, Apache aircrew instructors et al. UK struggles to recruit for a smaller workforce and the external pull factors are vast.
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Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Apparently a lack of Engineers is one of the underlying causes for delays in the fg trg system: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...aining-crisis/
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
Would any current or ex mil aircraft engineers join now considering the current "offer"?
Many things that were attractive and contributed massively to quality of life have been eroded; pay, pension, level of trg, sport, AT, accommodation or removed, overseas postings replaced by OOA ops, and one might say you will not miss what you've never had but without assessing and addressing or in that horrendous more recent parlance, taken learnings how it is really being fixed?
Really ?...I am actually capable of thinking for myself, thank you, so, I will.
First, thanks to all who provided the full article which, it seems, is directed at Shawbury and, as has now been established, the alleged shortage of civilian contractors.
That said, my views relate to the last paragraph posted by the OP.
First, there have been significant changes within the RAF, but, some aspects remain the same.
The good bits. AT is very much alive and well. Lossie was a very popular first tour for many. in this respect. The gym has replaced the bar. Tertiary education opportunities are now far more extensive, and available. Gone are the days, when I applied to do "A" level English and was told, quote " I won't enrol you for an A level, you are an airman "...thanks.. t%^t ! The annual assessment farce now tends to negate, but not always, the embittered SNCO's. Promotion however is problematic.
The RAF has never really been capable of a promotion stream for airmen. Today, once you've made it to SAC (Tech) you are no longer judged on your professional ability alone. You will have a secondary duty and, a tertiary duty ("voluntary"..cough !) Assuming you make Cpl, you then face a very long wait to Sgt.
The potential recruit demographic has also changed. Very few came straight from school, several had dropped out of tertiary education, many had a service family background, hence they chose, wisely, the RAF or had considered the RN. Whilst they came from across the UK, the N.East was fertile recruitment territory. Most had life experience .
There was, however, one other what you might call uniting factor. VERY, VERY few had ambitions to progress to their personal snot and wee encrusted chair in the Sgts Mess. Joining the RAF was another way of compiling a varied CV...to get them started in the real world where such is expected. .
Conditions. I visited Brize (day trip) Coningsby, Wittering and Odiham. Stayed in a transit block at Coningsby, Sgt's Mess at the others. Encountered "pay to starve", already done to death on here (pun intended) I know. Wittering Sgt's Mess Annexe should have had a sign "Sponsored by the RAF / IW Museum" it was that ancient. Had an "exchange" of views with some pious Flt.Lt in the Combined Mess for wearing a fleece... at breakfast !....he lost ! but, also revelation as to how one Sqdn, c/o their senile W.O treated AMM's "tyre kickers and arm wavers ". Contrast this to Odiham where somebody had done some thinking. True, on arrival, they went on the Line, but, then they were gradually introduced to Depth (second line for our elderly contributors) plus, they would do an OOA, but, wherever possible, would also get a jolly somewhere. The logic being, Odiham wanted them back as techs...seemingly, from a cross section we spoke to, this worked very well.
Training.
True, it has been significantly diluted to the bare basics which did the baby AMM's no favours, but did ensure they were considered safe to work on live aircraft. In theory, they did 18months before returning for the tech course. Strangely, this period became shorter, certainly for Avionics engineers. Training delivery styles have also evolved...I was a big fan / practitioner of EBT / VLE because the student was more actively involved with the instructor almost taking a back seat, obviously teaching the basics, but then more mentoring and encouraging the trainee to develop themselves, and, their knowledge. Got two commendations in fact for innovative delivery....plus having a sense of humour.
It was, at times, very frustrating as to the level of engineering, practical and theoretical, we could deliver. Some of the module handouts were " dire" .
I will say, when asked about the future, I encouraged trainees to apply for transport or rotary ..and avoid the FJ world if possible.
There was one other constant however. There remained a cadre of "resistant to change at all cost" SNCO's and, the well established incompetence of the Engineering Branch members.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 25th October 2024 at 16:24.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Likes: 41
From: Oil Capital of Central Scotland
'Twas ever thus ......
Nigh on 40 years back when I started my first Engineering Degree, it was being vigorously promoted in all the broadsheets and "meeja" that any kind of Engineering and especially Mechanical Engineering & Trades qualifications were just irrelevant relics of the past and Accountancy & Services were the way of the future.
It all conveniently forgot that the economy still needs a minimum number of people to grease the wheels of industry, the Accountants' BMW's still needed serviced and people who are working today have this annoying habit of getting old, retiring and eventually dying, making it difficult to encourage them to continue working.
And gosh, darn it, wouldn't you know that the poorer countries who were still training hordes of engineers that the Broadsheets, Politicians etc. all confidently predicted would be fighting each other with 5h1tty sticks just for the chance to come to the UK largely decided that the while the grass maybe was greener here they were overall better off not migrating here to be patronised and paid buttons.They might still be being paid buttons on a global payscale, but they didn't have to move too far away from home, get used to a different climate & friends & family stayed in the same time zone.
There was a small filip in the numbers of Engineers being publicly acknowledged as necessary about a decade or more ago, but we've been relying on having other countries do our Engineering for us for too long whilst our own population has aged and died. You can rely on "High Value Engineering Centres", i.e. design offices stacked with inexperienced but cheap graduates overseas for paper engineering for so long, but once you lose your practically-skilled core of people your then start to pay through the nose and be vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
Sow the wond,reap the whirlwind etc., etc. As someone who assesses Engineers for their professional competence on behalf of one of the Institutes, I can honestly say that there are still good Engineers coming through, but there are a whole lot more of them who are not, and never will be UK-based.
Much is being made of going "Net-Zero", but I don't hear about who is going to design, install, maintain, decommission and recycle all of the wind turbines, hydro schemes etc. and their associated transmission and connection systems in the near, medium or long term. We need to get back to the old Yorkshire saying of where there's muck there's brass. If you need to do something you HAVE to get your hands dirty & it has to be made financially, societally and individually attractive, otherise people just won't come into the field.
Nigh on 40 years back when I started my first Engineering Degree, it was being vigorously promoted in all the broadsheets and "meeja" that any kind of Engineering and especially Mechanical Engineering & Trades qualifications were just irrelevant relics of the past and Accountancy & Services were the way of the future.
It all conveniently forgot that the economy still needs a minimum number of people to grease the wheels of industry, the Accountants' BMW's still needed serviced and people who are working today have this annoying habit of getting old, retiring and eventually dying, making it difficult to encourage them to continue working.
And gosh, darn it, wouldn't you know that the poorer countries who were still training hordes of engineers that the Broadsheets, Politicians etc. all confidently predicted would be fighting each other with 5h1tty sticks just for the chance to come to the UK largely decided that the while the grass maybe was greener here they were overall better off not migrating here to be patronised and paid buttons.They might still be being paid buttons on a global payscale, but they didn't have to move too far away from home, get used to a different climate & friends & family stayed in the same time zone.
There was a small filip in the numbers of Engineers being publicly acknowledged as necessary about a decade or more ago, but we've been relying on having other countries do our Engineering for us for too long whilst our own population has aged and died. You can rely on "High Value Engineering Centres", i.e. design offices stacked with inexperienced but cheap graduates overseas for paper engineering for so long, but once you lose your practically-skilled core of people your then start to pay through the nose and be vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
Sow the wond,reap the whirlwind etc., etc. As someone who assesses Engineers for their professional competence on behalf of one of the Institutes, I can honestly say that there are still good Engineers coming through, but there are a whole lot more of them who are not, and never will be UK-based.
Much is being made of going "Net-Zero", but I don't hear about who is going to design, install, maintain, decommission and recycle all of the wind turbines, hydro schemes etc. and their associated transmission and connection systems in the near, medium or long term. We need to get back to the old Yorkshire saying of where there's muck there's brass. If you need to do something you HAVE to get your hands dirty & it has to be made financially, societally and individually attractive, otherise people just won't come into the field.
Joined: Sep 2014
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 153
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From: Coltishall
Once upon a time, we had a large army, navy & airforce and consequently lots of engineers doing their time and leaving in their 40s with a service pension.
These people still needed jobs and with a lot of military work being given to private companies, they were snapped up. They were perhaps not on high wages, but with their pensions, they did okay.
Roll on to today and these jobs still exist, but there are now fewer people about to fulfil these roles. As the contracts for this work usually goes to the lowest bidder, companies still want to pay the same sort of salaries. However, there aren’t so many who have the benefit of a pension to boost their take home pay. Skilled engineers are looking elsewhere, where their skills are appreciated and recompensed accordingly.
This issue has been brewing for some time, but it’s been heads in the sand and hoping it would go away. It’ll get worse unless more money is put on the table.
These people still needed jobs and with a lot of military work being given to private companies, they were snapped up. They were perhaps not on high wages, but with their pensions, they did okay.
Roll on to today and these jobs still exist, but there are now fewer people about to fulfil these roles. As the contracts for this work usually goes to the lowest bidder, companies still want to pay the same sort of salaries. However, there aren’t so many who have the benefit of a pension to boost their take home pay. Skilled engineers are looking elsewhere, where their skills are appreciated and recompensed accordingly.
This issue has been brewing for some time, but it’s been heads in the sand and hoping it would go away. It’ll get worse unless more money is put on the table.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 906
Likes: 102
From: Southampton
I’m drifting slightly, but several years ago I was talking to a guy who could make just about anything out of a piece of metal, especially if it needed milling or turning. He was just short of retirement, but he told me that when he started his apprenticeship, he was one of an intake of 120 for that year and that was for his trade. At that time, our company had got rid of apprentices and we talked about where his replacement would come from. We knew of very few companies that took on more than two or three.
We now have modern apprenticeships, but whilst they are welcome, they don’t have the same depth that we used to have. Still, better than none at all.
As has been pointed out, we are suffering from a skills shortage everywhere and although companies desperately need the staff, they are reluctant to invest in training because it adds cost to the bottom line. Unfortunately, those in charge are looking to the now and not the future. Beags mentioned that he was told that “it’s someone else’s problem”. Unless we can change that mentality, these issues will get worse.
We now have modern apprenticeships, but whilst they are welcome, they don’t have the same depth that we used to have. Still, better than none at all.
As has been pointed out, we are suffering from a skills shortage everywhere and although companies desperately need the staff, they are reluctant to invest in training because it adds cost to the bottom line. Unfortunately, those in charge are looking to the now and not the future. Beags mentioned that he was told that “it’s someone else’s problem”. Unless we can change that mentality, these issues will get worse.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
When the UK armed forces contracted in the late 70s and 80s there was a rush of great engineering personnel into civilian roles, about the same time the civilian companies reduced their apprentice intakes dramatically, in fact, some stopped recruiting completely.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
The RAF website mentions service benefits like subsidised food and gym being a perk that Civilians do not get on top of their wage.
As a Civi engineer I eat very well thank you, as I can afford too, because I get paid a lot more, so do not need subsidised food, no matter how good it isn’t.
My job comes with gym membership, health, dental, eye care, electric car schemes etc..
I can easily afford a mortgage, so some run down cheap married quarter slum is not required either..
Also I too can travel, as they mentioned that as a perk too, though the locals don’t tend to shoot at you on my trips abroad
According to these pay rates, a warrant officers wage doesn’t even come up to that of a LAE’s basic pay and that’s without the extra licences, types ratings, shift allowances etc, in-fact you would be looking at senior Sqn Leader, Wing Commander rates.
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/rafpayscales.php
Last edited by NutLoose; 25th October 2024 at 19:58.
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From: UK
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
This statement that relates to the past reflects a route cause of the problems that resulted.
Sounds wonderful doesn’t it, it talks about freeing up expensive trained service personnel and leaving those jobs to cheaper to employ civi’s.
But what happens, you no longer need all these expensive Service personnel as you have cheap civi’s doing the job, so you lay them off, but no matter, you have those cheap civi’s.
Then there becomes a shortage of those civi’s in the rest of the world and the pay rises, so they leave and recruitment falls as the wages are no longer comparable. And you decimated the Service personnel numbers as you no longer needed them , and hence the knock on effect on reduced recruitment.
…
Earlier in the decade the UK MoD stated that, "The Department remains committed to a process of civilianisation. Increasingly, it makes no sense to employ expensively trained and highly professional military personnel in jobs which civilians could do equally well. Civilians are generally cheaper than their military counterparts and as they often remain longer in post, can provide greater continuity. For these reasons, it is our long-standing policy to civilianise posts and so release valuable military resources to the front line whenever it makes operational and economic sense to do so".
But what happens, you no longer need all these expensive Service personnel as you have cheap civi’s doing the job, so you lay them off, but no matter, you have those cheap civi’s.
Then there becomes a shortage of those civi’s in the rest of the world and the pay rises, so they leave and recruitment falls as the wages are no longer comparable. And you decimated the Service personnel numbers as you no longer needed them , and hence the knock on effect on reduced recruitment.
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Last edited by NutLoose; 25th October 2024 at 20:29.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
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Then maybe stop posting as an authority on matters if your made up, fictional example is out of date, irrelevant or just wrong.
Last edited by viz; 25th October 2024 at 20:45.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
This year.
https://hellorayo.co.uk/hits-radio/l...-mouldy-homes/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ort-finds.html
https://www.gbnews.com/membership/so...ts-leaks-mould
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-water.html
https://www.helenmorgan.org.uk/news/...homes-revealed
2023 Dec
https://www.forcesnews.com/news/work...eing-done-pace