I knew of two Super Techs - one was fully engaged in doing all the land-away fixes and repairs and approved to do Nuke Certs on Bucc'. The other, as a wing commander, couldn't run a bath.

And as a B1 LAE you could do the Sqib jobs too!

As I had my A&C LWTR so early before leaving the RAF my FS used to farm me out to VASS to look after visiting a/c snags - Cobras with TRGB issues etc.

Originally 213 Craft Apprentice then rebooted to 116. 3.5 yrs of Wendover Tech was enough for anyone.

Blimey! :sad: Went through FAA Tiffy training '78 - '81 and, even as a Pinky/Fairy we did sheet metalwork, fitting & turning etc as well as all the usual in-Trade stuff such as wiring, practical faultfinding often down to component (resistor/valve/transistor level). :ok: How I wish I still had all my notes from back then - the inside of the ARC52 was a real work of art! And, looking back, I really enjoyed my Workshop time - which was used in anger quite a few times later on such as in support of the Falklands War or when doing a holdover at the JSGC Bicester even!

Fast-forward to the early '90's and we had a "Training Design" section to maintain the old courses (Tiffs and Line Mechanics) but, rather ominously, an even bigger "Training Re-design" section to produce a whole new suite of courses at both Mechanic-level and Tiff-level. Fortunately, I was only indirectly involved in that side but I think the content of the new courses led to some rather heated debates. :} Some of the changes were brought about by Repair Policy changes in the 90's such as, in the Av world, more and more cct boards which were simply not feasibly repairable at 2nd Line (or even further back at places like Sealand) - it was increasingly a "duff one in the bin and new one from stores" Repair Policy. But cost/training time was always under pressure too from the Beancounters...............

Of course, as several have noted, in the 2000's, IOS (Integrated Operational Support) contractorisation invaded our world which further reduced the need for Uniformed skills in Depth - again I was involved in that. And, as someone said earlier, this increasing lack of Senior Rates with Depth experience started to be reflected in the IPTs - the knowledge just evaporated as old Staff civvies retired but with no suitable "experienced" ex-Serving SRs to replace them. Indeed, my last experience was 2013-ish where I was a Contractor for BAE at Marham and we did have some Service personnel on the shop floor in Depth (3 & 4 Hangar) - but not that many. I never worked with any as they tended to work their own aircraft in the main but many of the Contractors were ex-Tornado SNCOs who were worth their weight in gold at times.

What it's like today I'm not sure any more - the FAA & RAF Recruitment Websites simply don't go into such detailed matters - I actually find them quite confusing with all their "Gloss"- an age thing maybe? However, all the above was predicted in our informal chats way back in the 90's. Most of us in Training Design/Redesign were ex-Tiffs or Mechs ourselves so we knew at 1st hand just what the Services and MoD were going to lose. All we could do was grumble into our pints in the bar........ and try and stop the real howlers from being imposed. All very sad really.................. :rolleyes:

H&H, you have to think that some people were saying similar things when Aircraft Apprentices stopped being taught Coppersmithing and wire rigging too. (The end of the Walrus?). Training has to be changed at some point to move with developing technologies, but there will always be a need to pay attention to what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. What we used to call ‘airmanship’ (I’m not sure if that would be specialistship, now?) The lack of attention/awareness in changing a heavily corroded plug set is/was a deplorable instance of the mindset of some individuals that are/were allowed to work on aircraft.
Cosford trains those given to it, to whatever levels apparently required today…. i.e. for a digital fleet of non-conventionally controlled aircraft. Remember that many RAF maintenance staff never moved off the Tornado fleet - and most could not recognise an aileron when they actually saw one (true!). However, once out in the real world these newbies are then subjected to “We do it this way, here” by their mentors and superiors - and that traditional training is the “combat era” style of maintenance that has been going on for the last 30+ medal-generating years. The MAA tend not to recognise what goes on in spite of their regulations and engos are either oblivious to those practices or merely happy with their readiness states.

The courses just in front of myself did the last copper smithing at Saints, there was a display wall of the best of their work. We were one of the last piston courses and cover rotary, radial, sleeve valves, inline air cooled. Water cooled, prop swinging etc.

The basic metalwork etc during hacking and bashing was to give you the basics so in a war you could make or repair tools or equipment

My course was the first Airframe Mech course, as St Athan closed and transferred, at Halton, 1975. We had only Appo stuff around us so we had no idea what we were to be taught. But we worked on Sea Vixens, Hunters, Provosts and Gnats and even we did a blade fold on a Whirlwind! Cosford now has Jags and Tornadoes - controlled by spoilers and elevons (surrounded by massive cushions) no basic aviation stuff to learn on (in my opinion). You even have to do an introductory course to get familiarised on "helicopters" as, I believe, they don't teach that at Cosford.

TBH Rigga, I really was probably over-trained but it meant I could do stuff "out of Trade" for things like Corporate and, far more importantly, even today in D-I-Y there's not much that I balk at!!!!!! :} It also gave me a good all-round appreciation for "Engineering". At RNEC Manadon I even did pattern-making and casting - never used that I'll confess!!!! But a staff Chief Tech in the JSGC at Bicester (not sure if he was Sooty or a Rigger) was most surprised when I showed him that his lathe wasn't "a stinking pile of cr@p" ....... you just don't take 1mm+ cuts into steel when the raw bar was 1cm. He was most bemused that a Navy Av even knew what a lathe was ....... let alone was advising him on using one. To his credit he asked for a quick summary of pointers before I left after my 2-week "loaf-Ex" (a.m. glider maintenance - p.m. hoofing around in thermals in said gliders!!!!!)! I left him well happy with his lathe and milling machine! :ok:

WRT the new courses, of course if things were no longer repairable at even 3rd Line, why train for it? No-one had a problem with that tho many questions were asked regarding the Navy way of doing many repairs at sea without any back-up from ashore. So the first thing we hoped would happen was that "Ranging and Scaling" would place the right stores in the right places to effect "Repair by Replacement" Maintenance Policies at sea and how much that all cost. But the bigger concerns came, for example, when cuts were proposed for more general things such as "1st Line Servicing" training. All that means is that the Training Squadrons had to take a lower-quality product and ensure they were safe to service and do see-offs and see-ins on the live aircraft with live aircrew on board. The training load was effectively being transferred from Training School to the Squadron. Different cost-centre I guess (or is that me being cynical? Moi???????)! :ok:

The final thing I recalled being discussed with sadness over beers was the acknowledgement that Forces Engineering Training was really the Govt up-skilling the future Commercial (Manufacturing and Servicing) Engineers and Technicians for UK plc. Of course, UK Engineering plc is now a shadow of the '70's and 80's (with some amazing high-tech exceptions such as F1 motorsport!). Maybe it was all a Govt conspiracy to drive out Engineering from the UK and hence why bother to up-skill your future civvy workforce in the Armed Forces? :uhoh:

I'm just really grateful I got to have such a quality in-depth Engineering education - and had a great time too! Damn, I sound old!!!!!!!!!!!! :bored:

Tailerons for Tornado and Tailplanes for Jaguar. The Jaguars system had a speed controlled differental mixer to use tailplane halves as roll control. Diff Tail.. The Shim was at the bottom of the pogo stick that allowed pitch and roll commands to be transfered to the PFCUs. Worn shim allowed backlash to built up on the system and cause the neutrals to be out of limits on minor checks . Never heard the term Elevons used on those aircraft and Elevons are not all moving surfaces, but trailing edge surfaces used on Deltas like Concorde and Vulcans. Oral airframe basic airframe structures fail.. :)

I went through saints in 76 on my engine mechs course, remember this, that was at Saints and is now at Cosford or was, still in service. These were taken 2019

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...795317a4_k.jpg

Your bouncy castles for working at heights in the training environment ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...0124ecf5_k.jpg

Things that made me think standards have slipped. Cowlings stacked on the floor without anything underneath them, made worse by being stacked next to empty racking

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...70d955a3_k.jpg

Pallets stacked on a pallet truck being used to fit pylons and stores on the “new” training aid Tornado.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...fbe79dda_k.jpg

Remember the JP at Halton in the new workshops (AFTS) 41 years ago!. As a basic aeroplane to start with, one has to start at the basics.

Nice looking JP, but was it a gotcha for apprentoids to spot the wrong colour nav light?

I never saw that JP - what a horrendous task that must’ve been!

Ive just remembered that I’ve only been to Cosford once, to shoot guns! Tern Hill and Shawbury were in Training Command - so I didn’t fire a gun for four years until Training Command was eventually absorbed into Strike!

I totally agree with your picture comments, Nutty, but are you applying civil standards to military practices? (especially about Panels on the floor and the [ab]use of pallets). Would we have done that in our time as we were taught ‘make do and mend’ by our seniors? (And yes, I do acknowledge these pics are (hopefully) at Cosford school and should all be done properly in any case).

Nice spot Beagle!

Do they still teach you how to use tools?

I remember spending a whole day learning how to use a screwdriver. The different types and sizes and then taking off and refitting panels for practice.

I do hope those awful contraptions, pump screwdrivers, had been consigned to history by then.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9932c6f159.jpg

Another century, another place, but the Halton graduates of the 1930s proved masters of make and mend in the grim years that lay ahead. For example, they patched the leading edge and designed, fabricated and fitted a reinforcement plate to the mainspar in this Fairey Battle -- in temperatures of -10C in their makeshift airfield at Berry-au-Bac, France, May 1940. Note the civvy registration on the Coles crane, which my father recalled was requisitioned from a London company and taken to France with the BEF.

The mainplane was replaced, the 250lb bombs on the right reloaded, and the aircraft returned to service two days later but in vain, like most of the wretched Battles it was shot down on its second sortie. Maybe it's impossible to carry out such work on today's aircraft though perhaps the Ukrainian engineers would say otherwise.

SeI still have one in the back of my tool box, never used lol.

What about wire locking pliers? Were they a good thing or ‘cheating’ a bit?


thread drift - sorry

Funny how different organisations can have widely different views on what is an acceptable practice.

Towards the end of a 30-year career as an RAF technician I spent a few months seconded to an RN helicopter unit. The naval tool-store did not carry adjustable spanners (wrenches) as techies were expected to select a spanner of the correct size, and a misused adjustable could damage the nut/bolt. Standard means of removing panel-screws, however was pump-action screwdrivers.

Wanted to bring a vehicle into an RAF flight sergeaant's hangar? Had to be a diesel, due to the risk of sparks from the ignition system of a petrol/gasoline engine. But wait a minute, this is the 21st Century; petrol engines have electronic ignition, and diesels have particulate filter devices that periodically burn-off the residue?

And don't even start on the mobile phone situation .....

Fully agree about adjustable spanners. An abomination, not issued in personal toolkits, and not in Loan Tool Stores. But neither were pump screwdrivers in any Navy workshop I was in. Accidentally damage an aircraft or equipment? Hold your hands up immediately, and few comebacks apart from a stern lecture and closer supervision. But damage them with the wrong tool or technique? 3-day suspension without pay and loss of craft allowance. Standards have definitely slipped, which is what happens when you put tools in charge of tools, delete training, and allow maintainers to use whatever they happen to have lying around. Flt Lt Sean Cunningham case in a nutshell.

Used reversable pliers today. Do a sweet job.

Some interesting reflective comments about training have emerged.

In my case, (213entry) we spent about 12 weeks filing aluminium blocks to size, basic rivet nailing, and, the delights of bend radii, making top hat sections. About 2/3 weeks were given to general engineering workshops plus basic electrics...wisely, were weren't allowed near any welding. Thence to skin repairs on Javelin wings, which are / were built like the proverbial. Thence to basic airframes, Piston Provosts !....modules, then advanced airframes and my first encounter with the infamous Hunter u/c spigot (and the string used to tension the bag tanks !). Discussions with others over the years suggested we were overtrained in some respects.

Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects. As for hacking and bashing, much more basic now, but still requires a test job at the end. With regard to BDR, as I've said, we did some initial development on 431, albeit we hadn't a clue as to what for, and how / why, as our "dynamic leader", living proof OASC was fallible, didn't actually bother to brief us...which may have helped. Ironically, on my second holiday in Germany, a BDR "empire" had emerged.

The "right tool for the job" was continuously stressed....pump screw drivers, almost banned !....adjustable spanners ?...erm, expediency comes to mind...wire locking pliers ?....should be recycled into scrap !

Changes to training could be "problematic" when encountering the "we've always done it this way ! " mentality. Notably when the AMM's were required to emulate the Sistine chapel painting a patch !....this got binned, by me, when a civvie at Marham ostensibly raised H n S issues about the substances used. Also, the litmus test. A waste of time / resources as they had all done the pink and blue test at school, plus, the acid / alkali effect on skin....far quicker, and practical, to take two former test jobs, place acid on one and alkali on the other, wait a few mins...and watch what happens. Easy, plus it saved money by reducing the number of times the water collector tank had to be emptied.

H n H....I can think of a couple of names at Bicester who would have fitted your description.

Incidentally, the black Jags shown came from Cranditz when the baby Eng.O's relocated. The crash mats could have been superfluous really, as a "fall from height" may have knocked some sense into some I subsequently encountered.

Wire locking pliers are not for the recycling bin. ABDR, did it for real in in GW1. Practice repair done in training was reproduced for real on a badly damaged GR1. I must admit, RAF ABDR kits had big holes in them with a huge affinity for only having 3/16" fasteners in them. Had to nick rivets off BAES and the yanks.

OK, wire locking pliers are useful but, only when doing long accessible lengths.....other than that, hands and pliers, to tension and form the end, are more than adequate. I've watched people struggle to get wire locking pliers into confined spaces, so dependent had they become on using them.

Depends on what, where, when and hand twisted locking is not at neat as wire pliers. Especially 6 inch mini ones that are in many company tool kits and get into a lot of confided spaces. Seeing I did quite a bit of wire locking outside in 5 degree temperatures on the line today. Only stuff I will use hands on automatically is the restraint wire for battery connectors. Never saw a set of 6 " pliers ever in the RAF.

Also depends on which aircraft you are trying to wirelock :)
I was always happy to use whichever technique would work on whatever I was locking - so I was happy to manually wirelock when necessary,also happy to use wirelocking pliers when I could - also sometimes used the wire spinners (twisters) when short of space.
On Harriers there were areas where one had to single lock (ie not twisted strands) due to lack of space/access - whatever technique that was necessary would be used :)

Not all adjustable’s are built the same, I do own one of these.

https://aircraftengineersstore.com/s...id-adjustable/

Rarely gets used, but it does come in handy once in a while.

You can throw your Ridgid E110 plumbers spanner in the bin as well. (Got one but never used it on a civvy aeroplane. Have a correct spanner)

They were a really nice bunch and made an ex-Waffu Fairy most welcome! :ok: I got the impression it was mainly that they'd never been instructed properly and/or used the kit for ages back in the mainstream RAF - but that was just my take on it. It all came back to them very quickly and I left them happy! I had a great 2 weeks there - fondly remembered to this day 35+ years down the line.

As eventually ended up as one so not too sure - some were past redemption (maybe even me!!!!!). :ok: Cue Sk going T/U in Norway with a sick Donk one weekend. Sqdn AEO called out to sort it. No "S" ECUs in the Engines Workshop or Main Stores so he duly called out the Engines Workshops team to get one repaired and "S" for collection by Herc first thing on Monday. Team worked all weekend and duly delivered a repaired engine to the Sqdn handing it to the Sqdn SMR (Senior Maintenance Rating) who had only just arrived at work after the weekend. SMR really puzzled - "Thanks guys, so what was up with the spare we always keep in the Sqdn hangar in case of just such an event?". Puzzled looks all round. Seems the AEO had "forgotten" that, probably 30 ft from his office was a fully "S" engine all bagged up ready to go once it had been "handed" depending on which position it was going to be fitted to. Oh, he made Admiral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: I'll let others give their views on H 'n' H - dons tin helmet and hunkers down for incoming embarrassing stories!!!! :} And I definitely didn't make Admiral - or anywhere near! Now, there must be a moral to that story...... somewhere ............. :ok:

Engineering officer decided to go with the boys out to Dulles Washington to do an engine change on a VC10, we kept getting excuses, problem with this, problem with that, then a private call ( he paid) to the line at Brize from the US, could you please put the engine lifting kit on the next Dulles flight, while we continue to stall.

He had managed to arrange everything needed to do the engine change, but forgot the lifting kit. Hence his phantom problems being sent in on the daily state.

K&C said:
"Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects."

Well, the subject person probably was told that at some point but with the majority of training aircraft in the 90s being 'unconventionally controlled' and, as previously mentioned, spending his career to that date on the Tornado fleet, when a Hawk parked overnight in our team slot he genuinely queried why one 'flap' was pointing down and the other one pointing up...A few of us looked at him twice and then I took him back to those controls surface basics.

When I left the RAF pump screwdrivers were still to be found - in Stores - used for opening wooden transport crates the necessary.
.

Only thing they were any bloody good for was opening STC's. Reminds me of flying out to Turkey from Lyneham with a load of spares, tool kits and a Jaguar engine door in its STC. The bloody movers (bag chucklers) decided that a thin plywood shod STC was a prefect place to stick hundreds of kilogrammes of baggage on top of it. That the STC could not support. Stores at Colt were livid when they got the STC back from Turkey and it arrived back to us to be conditioned. My comment was "You should have seen the ****e they put on top of it!
I used a cordless screw gun on my aircraft yesterday. Nice piece of kit and the first time I have used our new addition to our line station tool board.. Actually cordless drills are almost mandatory pieces of kit used in Civvy base maintenance.

Pump screwdrivers were certainly useful when removing and refitting the interior soundproofing on Sea Kings when they had their routine PX24 spray. Used to take ages otherwise.

Otherwise they were perfect for damaging aircraft skin…

except near fuel tanks.

My aversion to pump screwdrivers came about when one of our lads took his eye out with one. He was removing a Vulcan elevon seal (elevon off the aircraft) which was positioned on trestles such that the screw heads were underneath the leading edge and he was sitting and using the pump screwdriver upwards. It slipped !!

The awful Pump screwdrivers were banned from use on aircraft by the mid 1970's (cannot remember exactly when) - as well as the dangers of them slipping off the screw heads they would have put heavy 'push' loads on any anchor nuts.

AVGAS defo.

Comparing the tooling in use during my period in the RAF the snap on/facom kits in use today are light years ahead, the kits issued on 71MU must have been made up just after the WW1 armistice, massive 6X rivet guns from shipyards, 2BA open enders that were enormous and ancient files, how much time was wasted trying to work with this junk is anyone's guess, the red box tool kits available today reduce job times and are actually made for aircraft use and not building dreadnoughts.

The 431 kit was even worse. A sort of box on wheels, which fitted into the boot of an Austin 1800 to give you an idea of the size, it was a "collection" of various tools, some "adapted" for past jobs, others, well past their use by date.

It was embarrassing, to say the least, when we went to other nations bases.

The Danes allocated us, and the Cat 3 Bucc, minus one outer wing, a hangar usually used to house a couple of Chipmunks at Karup. There, on the wall, was a shadow board, all "Snap On" with every tool you could wish for.

The Germans thought it was hilarious...as one drily commented, " ah, scrap ? "

When 103MU was struck off in 1975 the tool store held items stored from the early 1920s when the MU was called X Depot in Egypt, we had to load up lighters to dump all this junk off shore, Audax rigging boards and beautifully made brass things in mahogany boxes were all chucked overboard.
One of the main tasks on the MU was to drill holes in things, all alloy, manganese steel, brass and extrusions, the standard RAF windy drill could only be selected ON or OFF, ON gave a very high RPM and this could only be reduced by kinking the airline to restrict air supply, absolute rubbish. I later bought a lovely pistol grip windy which was perfect for all jobs and offered complete control, used it for years and it cost about fifty quid in the early 80s, how this would have improved the job time and quality of the job on the MUs.

When the first Chinooks arrived, each came with a snap on toolbox filled with all the tools you may have needed, they were promptly removed to God knows where along with the centre row of seats, never to be seen again.