All my stuff is now in basic pay. So is pensionable. My old Dagenham Dustbin has been replaced by a newer one. One still has to live in the sarf and those wages cover the big house prices. KLM UKE is the worse payer I believe. :)
Damage was done to UK engineering by the witch Hilda.

Without detracting from the argument about undervalued engineers, the same principle applied to QFIs. Civilianise the training, the trainers recruit ex servicemen cheaply, the RAF does not train QFIS, the supply of RAF QFIs dries up, the civilians cannot produce the goods and the system fails. Penny pinching by accountants, who understand the cost of everything, but nothing about the value.

cynicalint, that was precisely the point I made to when some potential MFTS people came sniffing around to speak to us...

Also some of the first QFIs who left the RAF to work for a contractor instructing at basic level soon found that the pay rates which had been quoted were nothing like what they were being paid. Also they found that the contractor was assuming that the salary on offer when added to the service penion would be equal to the former military pay. Needless to say, they left the organisation pdq!

One ex-A1 QFI told me that during his 'acceptance check' with a contractor's instructor, which involved close formation, he'd actually had to take control and teach the checker how to fly close formation, because she was so bad!

Yeah, its not exactly rocket science is it...:rolleyes:

But, its happening everywhere in all sorts of roles and industries.......all accountancy and political driven short-sightedness from being too far away from the coal faces.

Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes.

Good to hear that Proone.
It's long overdue, and hopefully those apprentices will have bright and lucrative futures.

Yes indeed, but go back 25 or 30 years and a lot of those companies were cutting back on their training programs because they were overstaffed. There weren’t many training opportunities in the mid to late nineties, hence the huge demographic problem we are now experiencing.
FWIW, I started my technician apprenticeship in 1984 - there weren’t many opportunities in those days, either. It wasn’t a great time for engineering investment.

This was the point my father made in the nineties to the short term focussed management at the large well-known aerospace company he worked for.
The management stated that they were ending their training programs and recruiting trained people on the open market because it would be cheaper and produce results quicker. My father pointed out that this would only work for so long until the supply of available people dried up because no one was training up any more engineers.

The same went for a lot of the RAF, they got rid of Painters, aircraft welders, etc and farmed it all out to civi street to save money, so everything took three times longer to get sorted and often not as good, one did wonder what they would have done in a war when the manning that kept everything running in the background was no longer there. People took pride in their work and the job they were doing in the military, a company doing it on the cheap to get the contract, not so.

It isn't just engineers though!
In ATC a civvie (ie Sgt-Flt Lt) controller for NATS earns £80-£100k pa (plus a shift allowance of £15-£30k) and an assistant (SAC-Cpl equivalent) is £35-£60k)

SNCO level HR people in civvie street earn over £55k compared to the £40k ish the RAF pays.

That's interesting because, presumably, they were given the salary range prior to joining?. Unlike the following.

Not so long ago, a not so cunning plan was proposed to consolidate training, all three services, and free up what is now termed defence estates. This plan was called....Metrix. In theory, based at St Athan, cue artists impressions of leafy roads, luxury living, the usual promotional BS in fact. However, this plan seemed to fluctuate at times, funding being mentioned, in passing, as to why. But then, some sort of momentum occurred and visits from said organisation began.

It would be fair to say they didn't endear themselves to the RAF, let alone us, and gave the impression it was a done deal (which it was far from) and they were there to take over. Enter the various interviews, or "scoping" as they termed it. Enter also Ms Vacuous from HR, only capable of speaking in HR speak, and, one suitably attired, snake oil yooof. The questions set the tone. "did I have any experience as an engineer ?" "what do you do ?" ....faced with such a target rich couple, I indulged myself at their expense. But, eventually, we got around to remuneration. The answer to my question, inc pension plan, was...."competitive."....so I asked for something more tangible. I was curtly informed I would be advised, "IF" I was selected ...

But then came a more telling meeting, one of those semi formal style types, conducted by the front man, a former senior officer no less. 0/10 for presentation / 0/10 for conviction 0/10 overall in fact, not that the audience were overly enthused anyway. But then came the killer question from a usually quiet individual. along the lines of, so far nobody has mentioned pay scales, would TUPE be applied and, what sort of redundancy package would be offered.

At this point, one of the minders intervened and demanded to know why he was asking these questions. His calm response included a selection of Anglo Saxon words and phrases....the meeting, was, as they say, rapidly adjourned.

Karma came a short while later when the project was, sensibly, cancelled. Those on the Station were given 1hr to clear their desks / leave. I understand the RAF "kindly helped" them to find the main gate.

We never did find out the proposed, and probably mythical, salary scales or pension plans.

And yet somehow some types of apprenticeship, as highlighted in this thread are in dire need. These companies aren't charities - they recruit for their needs and these will be a fraction of what they were taking on 20+ years ago.

Trumpeting intake figures also doesn't take in to account attrition over the course of apprenticeship training.

And these apprentices will be useful in 3-5 years time if they start this year.

Licenced aircraft engineer will be even longer. Best LAEs now do come from the proper apprenticeship schemes and not the Licence factories.

Modern apprenticeship do not last that long unmanned droid, they are a ghost of their past service period.

Sorry to post again but I still feel very bitter about this. Over half a century ago Belfast Technical College, which had trained apprentices for the shipyard, Shorts aircraft factory, motor mechanics, electrical technicians, plumbers -- all the trades we now hire in from East Europe -- was renamed the Polytechnic, and later the University of Ulster. Who would want the old, dirty manual jobs when they could go to 'Uni' preferably after a gap year junketing around the world?

Most of the old industries have gone too and as of this year the country can't make its own steel, can't generate its own electricity when it's calm and dull, can't feed itself because farms have been merged into vast subsidy-attracting multinationals, and all too many are finding the years at 'Uni' have indebted them for decades to come. Almost 2 million students have student debt of £50k or more, but they have degrees in meejah studies, social engineering etc.

Just try finding a plumber or builder, mechanic aircraft or car ...

" Originally Posted by pr00ne
Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes."

All very well for PRODUCTION companies who train their apprentices to be their future home-grown engineers - but none of which teach the maintenance of aircraft except at Fitter/Mechanic level for military contracts. What is lacking in this underspending training contract are people who are qualified to sign off CIVIL aircraft maintenance to Cat B & C levels.

I can, and a form 4 holder ;)

I see in the Sunday Express that there is a plan to move all pilot training (presumably fast jet?) training to the US due to a shortage of aircraft in the UK. MFTS is obviously working well (??) but could this also be laid at the door of a lack of engineers to service/repair the aircraft as discussed earlier in the thread?

Too funny - the comedy club in full swing. I’d probably believe it a little more if it laboured on Hawk T2 availability and through wave reliability (assuming it starts on the first) along with mil instructor shortfall. As for engineers, oh myyy, there’s c300 on Hawk alone at VLY.

I wonder what the next step will be, farm out our combat ability as well?

Surely as during WW2, you then have to do further training in the U.K. for procedures, weather and terrain differences, mind you the Germans got by with it for years.

Today the Secretary of State for Defence announced: I’m introducing from April, a new £30,000 retention payment for a cohort of Tri-service aircraft engineers who sign up for additional three years’ of service. This will be open to around 5000 personnel in total.
Healey been lurking on PPRuNe Mil?

Good to see the recognition for Engineers here! :ok:

Sounds wonderful, however, it does make you wonder what may, or may not, be included in the proverbial "small print" . That, and what the selection criteria will be. Also, will this be a "one off" or become a permanent addition to the T's and C's.

I can think of one location where people completed one tour in one post before, ahem, seamlessly moving into another as they knew how to " work the system".

It's a one-off, and the T&Cs associated with it have been outlined previously and cascaded. What was held back until today was the amount and obviously the implementation date.

I would say though, going by this

Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2024 - 2025 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay - Armed Forces Pay Review Body -Fifty Third Report 53rd 2024 Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates - RAF 2024 Pay Review

It will only really bump a Chief Tech / Flight Sgt’s pay up to roughly comparable with 1 years Licenced Engineers pay rate in Civi street.

so any of those with Licenses, it will not really benefit their staying in the RAF etc, as you would need to triple it for a three year period to 90K to make it financially viable to remain in situ.

But it is a move in the right direction.

As much as this was a useful conversation, I believe it missed the point that the problem was not within the MOD or RAF's maintenance training but the lack of suitable remuneration to encourage Licenced Aircraft Engineers joining the contracted services at Shawbury and Valley. They simply offered too little pay and nobody was impressed enough to join.

One issue is, aviation companies these days are having to review and adjust remuneration’s accordingly, often several times a year, to simply retain staff, such is the shortage.

And while the RAF may try to retain engineers, the cold hard facts are they only review the pay scales annually, and the only ranks that can be considered financially comparable are senior ranks.

The likes of junior ranks will never be financially comparable, so they see their future outside the RAF and leave accordingly, this must compound the issues the RAF must face, as todays junior ranks are tomorrows senior ones, and with them leaving there is no backfill to replace them.

Yes Nutty, low pay is the problem and it all dates back to Tony Blair and his loony craze for universities. Our world-renowned Belfast Technical College (think of the skills which built the Titanic and other great liners and skilled craftsmen for Shorts) became a Polytechnic and then the New University of Ulster. Granted we have very successful IT graduates and research companies, but all too few apprentices in what used to be called the Trades. Nobody wants to be a grease-monkey or common LAE as I used to be.and now the country is paying the price.

We had to replace our gas boiler just before Christmas and we found a young chap who loved his job as plumber and then gas engineer. He said all his friends had gone to Uni for the gap year and the parties as he described it. One has a well-paid career ahead in IT, another is employed on video game design, the others are bicycle couriers or in MacJobs. On some gas installations he needs plastering, joinery or bricklaying work but has difficulty finding tradesmen to do it. Of the experienced tradesmen his firm used to engage, nine out of ten are due to retire in the next two years.

Aerospace manufacturing jobs are rightly valued, but where are the maintenance craftsmen to look after the products in service? I retired over 20 years ago and was still asked to return part-time for such tasks as duplicate inspections. These days I couldn't wriggle down a fuselage even if I hadn't lapsed my licences.

Because companies never paid the market rate to get people in for 20 years before Covid. They also didn't invest in targeted apprenticeships to get the cream to be LAEs as quickly as possible. BA trying that now. The whole system of licencing has changed as well. You can say that about the MROs in NWI and EXE. Connie pay at the latter is still pre pandemic rate. I am on 30K more than that now! You may not have noticed that kids do put effort into GCSEs and A levels to get to uni. And if you are like my two daughters that got medical degrees. They were not partying every night. Far from it. Only people that party every night at Uni are the rich.

No reflection on your daughters, DTS, or other youngsters who labour long and hard -- my younger relative has just climbed the ladder to become a hospital consultant. I was quoting the experience and comments of young Ross the plumber who worked equally hard to learn his trade. As I myself worked part-time and without pay to obtain my ARB A&C licence before the CAA took over in 1972. I fully accept that licensing is totally different to my times of more than half a century ago. But where are all the young tradesmen?

As I've said before, many I knew had no intention of progressing to their personal wee and snot chair in the Sgts Mess. The RAF was an entry level stepping stone to be a part of a diverse CV. Money however wasn't entirely the issue for not wishing to stay...it was the expectation of having to do secondary and tertiary duties, as well as being competent in their core role, that contributed to their decision.

Mind you, I did have to be the bearer of bad news to one who announced as soon as he was trained he was off to be....a connie... for more money. I gently pointed out, that, even if he found an agency, which was possible with some of the more "promise the earth" con merchants, if he arrived at 0800, he would be out of a job by 0830 and did he have his own, extensive, tool kit ?

Well some of them are working in Devon.
We needed a plumber and having been previously badly served by the older tradesman, we tried a young lad who was just setting up, He was available, turned up on time and went the extra mile, The attitude of the older guys was I was lucky to have them, their time keeping was dreadful and the job was often botched, the last one so badly he was too ashamed to send a bill.
The lad that turned up to service my gas boiler this year looked like he had not started shaving yet. The lad the year before found a leak that three of the manufacturers own engineers had missed on previous visits.

It is very difficult to get a decent apprenticeship (or any apprenticeship for that matter) in civvy street.
The armed forces provide decent training.
They are a stepping stone for those who are looking for a career in aircraft maintenance.
You have to start somewhere.
If you take the long view and not that long, after serving your time and putting in the effort to get through the licence exams you are employable.
Having retired a couple of years ago I am surprised by how fast wages have accelerated.
Companies apart from annual pay rises also have time served increments.
A shift supervisor with full increments is on about £90k where I used to work.
Surely that is not too shabby and not a bad end result after a short career in the military.
If I was faced with the recruitIng problem I would be selling the future, this is where you start but this is where you can end up.
The military appears to think it exists in a bubble, embracing a whole career view to retirement would encourage more people to enlist.
A proper partnership with civil aviation would benefit both parties.

Some of the younger guys are as keen as doing the most professional task they can I have found. Some older boys have been cowboys, especially the Brexit voting Saffar immigrant I had the misfortune of doing my gas boiler servicing back in Norfolk a few years ago. Gash..

Alas the training is not as strong as it was even 20 years ago. Skill set has been dummed down with the removal of 2nd and 3rd line to Industry. But the reduction of time limits to gain a licence is still there. Alas, the CAA was incompetent to tie military training and experience into credits against modules for A and B tickets. I had to do the lot (17 exams) for the basic licence and I had to do the complete first Type OJT syllabus for my first type rating. Most British companies were not set up for that. I did slog it out to do the exams (not one minute in a lecture to pass them) and had them under my belt as I left. There is the differences between the structure that we all know of course. That will never change and does not in the case of Voyager and Shadow. However in the past. Companies also had no incentive to train people when they advertised across the channel.Cannot do that anymore. BA are recruiting from the military now trying to fast track LAEs.

Sounds like nothing has changed since the 1960's. I left school in 67, spent 2 years trying to get an apprenticeship. Joined the RAF in 69 and became a Halton brat. Did my time, joined BA and got my licenses. Saw BA run down its apprenticeship scheme and start recruiting full time from the services and Bae until that dried up. Didn't have an apprentice scheme for over a decade until an ageing workforce forced their hand and they started a new scheme.

Quite so, Rebus. My father joined the RAF in 1936 and trained as airframe fitter at Halton. I still have a couple of spanners they all made as part of their training, and a tool for Hawker Hart rigging that's bound to be useful one day. His last posting was to 202 Met Sqn at Aldergrove, where he had to have one of five Hastings ready for takeoff at 0800 every morning, with one on standby to seek out the all-important weather. He completed his 26 years in 1962 just as Airwork was taking over 202's maintenance, offering him exactly the same duties for rather more money.

I had vague ideas of following in his footsteps but he strongly discouraged me, saying that it was no joke struggling with a wonky Hastings outside in North Atlantic gales and always under pressure. After a couple of years he had a heart attack, but Airwork kept him on full pay for almost a year until he decided he had enough and became the very happy live-in custodian of an ancient monument. This was shortly after my Uncle John had a fatal heart attack. He had been one of the first three engineers to be licensed on BEA's new Viscounts and he too often spoke of the constant pressures to get the aircraft away at all costs.

My father had high regard for the young airmen who worked under him but worried that two years of National Service wasn't nearly enough for their development, of course most of them couldn't wait to quit the RAF. I did ask what Airwork would do when stocks of experienced old-timers chose retirement and he replied that no civvy apprenticeships were in sight though they might have employed them in England. Even then youngsters were turning away from the trades.

I have seen people including LAEs leaving companies for years and if that company does not pay at least a similar amount to its neighbours they will continue to move. The last small company I was in danger of losing several major types as senior LAEs left apparently for no reason...until the last one said it was about poor pay which hadn't been reviewed for three years. (the company owner was quite happy with that). I remember in the mid/late 80s that there was a huge Heathrow/Gatwick pay battle where LAEs swapped almost regularly between Virgin and BA (some possibly still do).
When I got to Norwich the local helicopter companies pay was better than fixed wing pay - and with better bonuses too! As a type rated LAE, I left Norwich for a 45% pay rise for half of the job I previously did. Unlike most pilots, most engineers are not Union members (I was) and their pay rates can be very personal and any large company pay scales are not often publicised. (KLMuk applies 'Norwich Weighting' to its pay - similar to London Weighting but is set at minus 30%). Having said all that, my wide scope of experiences at AirUK / KLMuk set me on my feet for civil aircraft management and certification....and although I'm recently retitred, I'm still looking for short contracts!

Well done and best wishes, Rigga! You worked for your bread and butter, now sit back and enjoy the cream when it suits you, you've earned it! Could I ask if any of your companies had an apprenticeship scheme, or did they think it wasn't necessary?

Yes - of the seven companies that I’ve worked with 6 had/have Apprenticeships for the skills and qualifications they needed - and in three cases that meant LAEs that could double as machine operators for Part 21G to produce company designed modifications.