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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
(Post 12071307)
I did see a report quoting the CentCom "press release" stating "Iranian ports" , which said it ( CentCom) was finessing Trump's words and would therefore not interdict any non-Iranian ship which left Iran and then subsequently stopped at another port before passing the blockade. It will be interesting to see if that is an accurate interpretation.
I'll give it a few more days and see if becomes clearer. |
A really good Middle-East podcast with up to date analysis here: both free to air and subscription for a deeper dive:
https://messageheard.com/podcasts/conflicted The latest edition looks at the blockade. |
Sadly it would seem the US is reduced to binary choice, go big or go home. Cut off Iranian oil exports until the regime runs out of money to pay their internal enforcers, and they take Trumps 10 points to save their skins, or take some fig leaf deal with a Iran's "promise" not to enrich their uranium for 5 years and some BS accommodation on shared control of the Strait of Hormuz. Going big means having the strait closed for an estimated 8 to 12 months with the attendant global economic hit, going home soon means a forever diminished US.
When I went to Staff College the module on the Operational Planning Process emphasized the importance of carefully defining the aim of Campaign, as every decision after that would be influenced by the aim statement. There was also a lot of discussion over defining the enemies likely course of action as well as their most dangerous course of action. It would seem that the Gulf War 3 plan had no actual aim statement and no plan to deal with Iran's most dangerous course of action. This is an epic level of failure. The second Gulf war was a master class in campaign planning, the third Gulf war will go down in history as a case study in how not to wage a war. |
Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
(Post 12071498)
Sadly it would seem the US is reduced to binary choice, go big or go home.
Europe + China should then try to open the Strait in an alignment but also clear stance (no permanent toll booth) to Iran. That's the optimistic scenario. |
Originally Posted by henra
(Post 12071511)
For going big there is not enough interceptors and the impact on the Gulf states' Infrastructure and thus the World Economy for several Years to come will be too big. Declare great Victory and Go home will effectively be the only viable choice.
Europe + China should then try to open the Strait in an alignment but also clear stance (no permanent toll booth) to Iran. That's the optimistic scenario. |
Salute!
Excuse me, but in a typical press exposure today , the likes of which I have not seen tolerated from ANY COUNTRY HEAD OF STATE since my folks bought a TV in 1954 or so, the POTUS clearly answered the question of "aim" - "Iran will never have a nuclear weapon". He repeated that over two dozen times, maybe, because the press kept asking the same question over two dozen times concerning the Pope's view. They are stuck on stupid. Fer Chrissakes, does anyone wonder if POTUS would be satisfied if Iran had nukes? Beam me up! Gums sends... |
Saddam pretended to have Nukes which he didn't actually have and got killed. Iran said they didn't want nukes but by enriching to 60% they remained within reach of nukes and their leaders got killed. The only "axis of evil" country from 20 odd years ago not to lose their leadership is North Korea...because they got nukes. I wonder if the events of the last few weeks will incentivise future despots to rush towards nuclear weapons ASAP for their own self preservation.
Israel being a Nuclear power in the region combined with them being the perennial instigator of wars will need to be counterbalanced in a lot of people's minds. |
Having a nuke during the Cold War was a plus, indeed survival. As both sides had them, it was the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) which, if carried out, would have literally been mad. So nukes were good, and saved us.
But we don't need more proliferation. Commonsense - I'm with Trump, we don't want Iran armed with nukes. |
Salute!
Interesting scenario, Una. The world at large does not depend upon N. Korea for food, toys, oil , uhhh, uhhhh It also is not a theocracy government that has vowed to "eliminate" those of other religious beliefs and practice, and ..... Gums sends... |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 12071551)
If - as seems to be the general consensus around here - the US Navy can't keep the Strait open, what makes you think Europe and China (with a fraction of the resources) would be able to?
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Originally Posted by gums
(Post 12071598)
Salute!
Interesting scenario, Una. The world at large does not depend upon N. Korea for food, toys, oil , uhhh, uhhhh It also is not a theocracy government that has vowed to "eliminate" those of other religious beliefs and practice, and ..... Gums sends... Gaddafi and Assad both got the boot in one way or another and Assad in particular wasn't much of a threat. If anything it could be argued in hidsight the secular Baathists were keeping a lid on far worse actors in the region. Gaddafi had form getting bold things to terrorist organisations over a number of decades. |
Originally Posted by henra
(Post 12071600)
Negotiations and not being party in this war. It won't be able by force.
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The second Gulf war was a master class in campaign planning, the third Gulf war will go down in history as a case study in how not to wage a war. The self inflicted catastrophes in the first two and upcoming third "victories" is ample evidence of delusional planning. |
Originally Posted by GlobalNav
(Post 12071609)
I realize I'm not in the majority here, but I believe the Navy, Air Force and Marines are quite capable of conducting the blockade. Perhaps not 100% water tight, so to speak (I am a Dad after all), but my hope is that the blockade can be selective, eventually enabling passage for friendly traffic. Can't say whether or when ship owners will wish to take the risk, though.
So we are no nearer a solution here tbh as the race is between the Iranian economy collapsing or the world economy collapsing (OK, maybe too strong a description but you see the idea). I suspect Iran will keep a lid on things longer than the rest of us given the way they rule and, of course, I'm sure Russia will help out - for a price - via the Caspian. So quite a game of "brinkmanship" being played out with the world as unwitting participants. Maybe that is the WH "plan" for now......... Saying they are "helping the world" while, actually, doing the opposite! |
Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High
(Post 12071796)
While I tend to agree with you GlobalNav, the issue is that you have 2 blockades as discussed at the link in Post #5293. So, while the US can stop Iranian traffic and let other "friendlies" pass, effectively Iran can then threaten those "friendlies" if they try to run the Strait as you allude to at the end of your statement.
So we are no nearer a solution here tbh as the race is between the Iranian economy collapsing or the world economy collapsing (OK, maybe too strong a description but you see the idea). I suspect Iran will keep a lid on things longer than the rest of us given the way they rule and, of course, I'm sure Russia will help out - for a price - via the Caspian. So quite a game of "brinkmanship" being played out with the world as unwitting participants. Maybe that is the WH "plan" for now......... Saying they are "helping the world" while, actually, doing the opposite! |
Originally Posted by artee
(Post 12071920)
You appear to be casting aspersions on the stable genius' plans.
Anyway, the latest twist in the saga.................... "Iran foreign minister says Strait of Hormuz open for remainder of ceasefire" as per the BBC at 1408 BST Of course, what this means in practice is anyone's guess as a lot of shipping companies will be wondering no doubt. And is this linked to the recently announced truce in Lebanon? However, the US blockade still is "on". Who's saying what and to whom is anyone's guess particularly with places like China having rather vested interests in how this all pans out. |
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
(Post 12071662)
I would add GWI to the list of master classes.
The self inflicted catastrophes in the first two and upcoming third "victories" is ample evidence of delusional planning. |
Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High
(Post 12071796)
While I tend to agree with you GlobalNav, the issue is that you have 2 blockades as discussed at the link in Post #5293. So, while the US can stop Iranian traffic and let other "friendlies" pass, effectively Iran can then threaten those "friendlies" if they try to run the Strait as you allude to at the end of your statement.
So we are no nearer a solution here tbh as the race is between the Iranian economy collapsing or the world economy collapsing (OK, maybe too strong a description but you see the idea). I suspect Iran will keep a lid on things longer than the rest of us given the way they rule and, of course, I'm sure Russia will help out - for a price - via the Caspian. So quite a game of "brinkmanship" being played out with the world as unwitting participants. Maybe that is the WH "plan" for now......... Saying they are "helping the world" while, actually, doing the opposite! |
Rant
Forgive me but lately spokespersons for certain governments have taken to using the term “Engaged Kinetically” instead of “We dropped a big ass bomb on them!” The term just PO’s me …much too clean and clinical for what actually took place. Especially when you know the “talking head” will be sipping champagne and nibbling on a #1 shrimp in palatial splendour with other 01% shortly after making the statement. I assume a term designed to shelter the viewing public from the horrors of war being perpetrated in their name. I come from the “A spade is a Fxxxxn Shovel” school of thought. |
Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
(Post 12072012)
In GW2 the US Military was given the mission to defeat the Iraqi armed forces and occupy Iraq. 20 Day later they had defeated the 4 th largest army in the world with record low numbers of casualties and a remarkably low level of collateral damage. The fact that the US government did not have a realistic plan for the day after isn't a fault of military planning it is a failure of US foreign policy. In any case they were warned by the military planners about the weakness of the post conflict planning process.
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