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I know this is a naive question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What would happen if Finland sent its Leos to Ukraine without German permission?
How would they respond? Invade Finland? |
Originally Posted by anxiao
(Post 11369308)
I think it is more along the lines of this article from france24. I think the SPD still has strings that go back to Schroeder and the oil and gas companies of Russia.
From FRANCE24 More than 50 years after Brandt launched his “Ostpolitik” initiative, it’s now being used as an excuse for what Germans call a “Putinversteher” – which literally translates as “Putin understander”. The term is a pejorative reference to politicians, who insist the Russian leader’s expansionist interests are justified, as well as anti-American pundits pushing back against Washington’s calls for Germany’s energy security. “There are dense networks of money, influence and politics between the SPD and Russia. They hang out in the board rooms of energy companies, trying to build solidarity with Russia while just raking in the money,” explained Nick Spicer, FRANCE 24’s Berlin correspondent. “The question is whether Scholz is going to call out his former SPD colleague.” Perhaps Scholz needs the support of these networks to stay in power? Germany will be in a single act that lies on the spectrum between obligation following the surrender in 1945 against arming belligerents, to being a deliberate impediment in the defence of a regional country under criminal attack, a wide spectrum ( not as wise as Putin's maybe, but still..) either way they become a worthless munitions exporter, and will effectively dampen their weapons industry. One wonders how far removed that reposition is to questioning why NATO places forces in Germany for the defence of Germany if they could care less about the concept of defence against aggressors. Seems they are managing to behave into he worst possible manner, and they will be remembered for their contempt for the justified defence of a country under attack by their butcher mates in the Kremlin.. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11369039)
Serbia distancing itself from Russia….
"For us, Crimea is Ukraine, Donbas is Ukraine — and it’ll remain so", Serbia's president Vucic says. https://t.co/kzI963lHPA What the deputy like when the boss has his misfortune Pooteening event |
Poland has had enough of Germany’s nonsense.
On supplying Leopard 2 tanks to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Poland’s PM Mateusz Morawiecki said: “Consent is of secondary importance here. We will either obtain this consent quickly, or we will do the right thing ourselves.” |
Originally Posted by anxiao
(Post 11369308)
I think it is more along the lines of this article from france24. I think the SPD still has strings that go back to Schroeder and the oil and gas companies of Russia.
“There are dense networks of money, influence and politics between the SPD and Russia. They hang out in the board rooms of energy companies, trying to build solidarity with Russia while just raking in the money,” explained Nick Spicer, FRANCE 24’s Berlin correspondent. “The question is whether Scholz is going to call out his former SPD colleague.” Perhaps Scholz needs the support of these networks to stay in power? Another factor to consider is that re-unification is only a generation behind us. Eastern Germans over 50 may still have some empathy for Russia. Many of these were taught Russian in school and grew up under the influence of Russian culture, so there remain historical ties (social, political economic....) that influence their thinking and their political vote... |
Originally Posted by sheikhthecamel
(Post 11369342)
Another factor to consider is that re-unification is only a generation behind us. Eastern Germans over 50 may still have some empathy for Russia. Many of these were taught Russian in school and grew up under the influence of Russian culture, so there remain historical ties (social, political economic....) that influence their thinking and their political vote...
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
(Post 11369361)
My wife speaks Russian. She was taught it at school in the DDR. She does have a deep hatred for the Russian government though.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 11369300)
Germany has lost a war and surrendered unconditional. Arms and arms exports are strictly regulated and limited by law and need highest level permits. This was implemented by the Allies after the war.
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Originally Posted by sheikhthecamel
(Post 11369342)
My 2cents on this, from dealings there: German industry and politics are inextricably linked. German industry is (a) notoriously slow to change and (b) take the long, long view. Given that Russia was a major trading partners, and given that at some point in the future Russia will return to the global fold, German industry want to be at the forefront of the economic opportunities that will come out of this mess eventually. That means treading a very fine line that stays as close as close to neutral as possible to avoid antagonizing the bear. They've taken a leaf out of the Swiss playbook here. Another factor to consider is that re-unification is only a generation behind us. Eastern Germans over 50 may still have some empathy for Russia. Many of these were taught Russian in school and grew up under the influence of Russian culture, so there remain historical ties (social, political economic....) that influence their thinking and their political vote... I have never read anything that indicated the ordinary Ossi had the least bit of sympathy for Russia/Russian occupiers. More likely that they loathed them, seeing them as the driving force behind their deeply unpopular DDR government. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11369334)
Poland has had enough of Germany’s nonsense.
On supplying Leopard 2 tanks to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Poland’s PM Mateusz Morawiecki said: “Consent is of secondary importance here. We will either obtain this consent quickly, or we will do the right thing ourselves.” |
The US don't seem to send their own main battle tanks. Lloyd Austin is in Berlin today and then at the Ramstein summit.
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The excuse(?) the USA gives for not providing Abrams is the required logistic support and training.
Same as argument as being raised about the Challenger. They are 60+ ton tanks and unsuitable for the terrain, roads and bridges in much of Ukraine and require the transporters, bridging equipment, recovery vehicles plus all the IFV and other supporting armour to form effective joint arms units. (A T-72 weighs 41 tons) They see the Bradley, much lighter and easier to support and fix logistically as being a far better match - and more than capable of taking on a T-72. The question being are they sufficiently armoured to break through Russian lines and attack the rear an Abrams unit can. |
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
(Post 11369379)
True, but Scholz can simply give approval by saying "YES"
There's your problem, Scholz. Well done Poland for again, doing the right thing. |
Sweden will give Ukraine 50 CV90 infantry fighting vehicles and 12 Archer self-propelled guns, - Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden just confirmed. This is huge. CV-90's have high mechanical reliability and great firepower. I expected Patria's but CV-90 are really good. |
Estonia just upped their support to Ukraine to 370M€, which represents 1% of the Estonian GDP. They are serious about their support to Ukraine.
To put it into context, if Germany would do the same they would provide $42 billion. UK $30 billion. |
Originally Posted by rattman
(Post 11369432)
archers are going to be interesting
Withe the Archer... the Swedes aren't kidding with their support, either. |
😂😂😂
The German government is doing more damage to the German arms industry than the RAF did |
I think its more a worry of technology falling into Russian hands, the excuse below re Gas Turbine engines and they have mentioned fuel issues for them in the past... they appear to skim over the fact Ukraine operates T-80 tanks and they are powered by... a Gas Turbines!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64329059 "The Abrams tank is a very complicated piece of equipment. It's expensive. It's hard to train on. It has a jet engine," Mr Kahl said. |
One reason why Ukraine needs 100s of Leopards or Abrams - for all their armour they’re still vulnerable and scores will be lost in any major campaign.
Magic bullets they ain’t… |
If you can figure out how to build a helicopter powered by a gas turbine, surely a tank powered the same way isn't going to reveal any game-changing technologies...
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