Originally Posted by Beamr
(Post 11209617)
this raises the question: what is the oldest western weapon still in active duty within western military (by design and/or manufacturing date)?
BUFF takes the date to 1950's, anything more vintage? Mog |
Originally Posted by Mogwi
(Post 11209683)
A certain gun club used to have crossbows in their armoury. Certainly in use in 1982; silent but very deadly and put the wind up Johnny Foreigner!
Mog How about revolvers, apparently the U.S. air force is only just about to give up on their Smith & Wesson model 15's which root back to 1899. https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/sw-mode...aving-service/ |
Isn't the USS Constitution still a fully commissioned navy vessel?
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Mention of the Starstreak prompts me to ask how long the training for use of that system would be ? I'm guessing that no British military would be deployed in Ukraine, so the trainees would have to come over the border into a NATO country for this training.
Another query is that although this missile is spoken of as being a MANPAD, I have never seen it pictured in a configuration that meets that spec. The Thales YT video shows it vehicle mounted , or as a ground-based launcher of three which is certainly not man-portable: never shown as a single unit. |
Originally Posted by HOVIS
(Post 11209730)
Isn't the USS Constitution still a fully commissioned navy vessel?
Meanwhile, the Yeomen Warders’ pikes in the Tower of London … oh, forget it! |
Putin suffers from the same syndrome as our friend Adolf. He is a self styled "chosen one" and basically kills anyone close to him who doesn't agree with "the plan". You don't get anywhere with " yes men" Vlad. You should listen to your Military otherwise you will repeat the stupidity of Hitler.
Amazing how bloody daft some of these people are - thank Goodness!! |
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
(Post 11209739)
Mention of the Starstreak prompts me to ask how long the training for use of that system would be ? I'm guessing that no British military would be deployed in Ukraine, so the trainees would have to come over the border into a NATO country for this training.
Another query is that although this missile is spoken of as being a MANPAD, I have never seen it pictured in a configuration that meets that spec. The Thales YT video shows it vehicle mounted , or as a ground-based launcher of three which is certainly not man-portable: never shown as a single unit. |
If you check SM this is being confirmed/repeated in every town and village, as well as the outskirts of Kyiv.
Basically, the Russian forces have been executing every male of military age, between 18 and 65, as they retreat… And we stand by, because we worry about the price of gas. |
Originally Posted by Arfur Dent
(Post 11209754)
Putin suffers from the same syndrome as our friend Adolf. He is a self styled "chosen one" and basically kills anyone close to him who doesn't agree with "the plan". You don't get anywhere with " yes men" Vlad. You should listen to your Military otherwise you will repeat the stupidity of Hitler.
Amazing how bloody daft some of these people are - thank Goodness!! I very much enjoy reading about the corruption in Russia and how it affects their armed forces. It is a huge strategic disadvantage. I hope they stay corrupt. I believe China has a lot of corruption as well. Good. I like the fact that both countries seem to have an inflexibility in thinking that does not allow nimble decisions to be made on the spot by lower-down personnel. Another strategic weakness. I suspect China is getting a good lesson on the hazards of invading a determined country. Taiwan really does need to be provided some good subs to sink carriers and invasion fleets(or else they will need a timely divine wind - if you know your history). There are some bad people in the world and those who have not embraced the mantra of Peace Through Strength are extremely naive - and dangerous for the west, yet they get elected. It has been obvious for 20 years that Putin and the Russians are a huge threat, yet when a well-known person tells them to cancel Nordstream 2 and spend 2% of GDP on defense, they call him the new enemy because he makes nasty tweets. Ask yourself something, how can anybody be so incredibly stupid to let countries in western Europe become energy dependent on a huge country running around invading neighbours to take over territory, setting up groups to launch computer attacks around the world, and poisoning people in places in the UK(and even the leader of Ukraine). Yet these people who think they are smarter than the rest of us implement policies like shutting down perfectly good nuclear power plants for no good reason and chasing foolish dreams that result in each of us literally funding this war for Russia with each unit of energy consumed. It is the epitome of stupidity. Unfortunately,, there are a significant amount of people willing to sacrifice our security for fantasy ideas and believe that if we are Neville Chamberlain nice, it will be returned. And soon after the lessons are learned, they are forgotten again. Let me be clear. If the west was weak, Russia would do to us what they are doing to Ukraine(which has had much of their success to to weaponry from the west). And there is a bigger rival out there. Something to remember the next time there is a choice in a budget between an F-35 and another feel good cause. |
Originally Posted by Beamr
(Post 11209530)
Thanks, very interesting. Although the usefulness of all that WW2 era kit is next to nothing unless someone decides to arm millions of men with anything at hand and have them walk en masse to the front line. And that would not work anyway.
It is somewhat puzzling that they've decided not to use the most produced assault weapon in the world, the AK-47, but instead have provided the Donbass troops with the M91's and maxims. I've no idea what should be thought of it. Mark Felton just released a video on these old weapons where he said ukraine has 35K maxims in storage |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11209796)
If you check SM this is being confirmed/repeated in every town and village, as well as the outskirts of Kyiv.
Basically, the Russian forces have been executing every male of military age, between 18 and 65, as they retreat… And we stand by, because we worry about the price of gas. |
Write up of the Ukrainian Airforce experiences so far, it’s a bit long to copy verbatim so please read it here.
https://babel.ua/ru/texts/77251-the-...um=publication |
Originally Posted by Beamr
(Post 11209617)
this raises the question: what is the oldest western weapon still in active duty within western military (by design and/or manufacturing date)?
BUFF takes the date to 1950's, anything more vintage? I have used a P14 from 1914 re-barrelled from .303 to 7.62 and modified to single shot at Bisley at ranges up to 800yds. It is a lovely rifle to use with. It has a modified Mauser action, which is so much better than the Lee Enfield No 4 action, that I have also used, that I wondered how we ever won a war with the Lee Enfield! |
Russian soldiers returning to Belarus from around Kyiv are posting home their looted goods, therefore their identity will be recorded or that of their families. A possible source to identify those involved in war crimes?
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Originally Posted by WB627
(Post 11209828)
Try the M1917 Enfield, the American modified Enfield P14 of 1914 AKA the No 3 Rifle, which is still used by the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol in Greenland which is an elite Danish naval unit. They use a a bolt action rifle as it is more reliable in the extreme cold than automatic rifles, quite important when you have an angry Pola Bear who sees you as their next meal bearing (no pun intended) down on you.
I have used a P14 from 1914 re-barrelled from .303 to 7.62 and modified to single shot at Bisley at ranges up to 800yds. It is a lovely rifle to use with. It has a modified Mauser action, which is so much better than the Lee Enfield No 4 action, that I have also used, that I wondered how we ever won a war with the Lee Enfield! https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/7.62%C3%9754mmR The 7.62×54mmR is one of the oldest cartridges still in use by any military in the world, and one of the few rimmed bottleneck cartridges still in common use today.The Russian military uses it in the Dragunov SVD, as well as other sniper rifles and general purpose machine guns. |
Kenyan representative to the UN, Martin Kimani, bravo Sir.
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Originally Posted by etudiant
(Post 11209849)
.
Separately, I have to doubt the claim of economic collapse or of food shortages. source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ussia-by-type/ On economics: if the trade balance on oils, fish and grain plummets it has direct impact on economy. Amongst other sanctioned items. |
How many of you want to bet that, at most, two years after all this is done there will be business as usual?
Capitalism has no room for morality. What is happening in Ukraine is bad, but so is in Palestine (by Israel), Pakistan, China, ME and West is conducting business with them without a hitch. China needs resources for their own economy and they are getting all those African and S. American sources under their own control. West will need to deal with Russia again. |
Originally Posted by admikar
(Post 11209920)
. West will need to deal with Russia again.
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NutLoose please can I suggest a small flaw about using postal services to track identity of Russian in the postal system. The Belarus is essentially enemy territory and might be reluctant to provide evidence against Russian troops.
Old Duffer |
We shall indeed have to deal with Russia again but, as long as Putin remains in power, there will be limits to that engagement. The truth is that we were completely open to a Russia that was part of the international community and had some form of capitalist economy and were willing to overlook certain excesses of that country - 'it is only the Russians after all - what can you expect, etc?'. Who in their right mind is going to rely on supplies of Russian oil and gas ever again? The harsh reality is that all the people with the big oil reserves are people with an extremely shady human rights record. We can whine all we want, and with good reason, but the bottom line is that the UK (and less publicly several others) have had to go cap in hand to Saudi Arabia to secure oil supplies. No one wants it, but the alternatives are not too great either.
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Having had over a number of years experienced the attitudes of ordinary Russians. It seems that to me that when they come to visit one's country either as a visitor or on business, one is left with the perception that they already "own" your country by their vulgar and arrogant attitude to the citizens, they just have not decided to invade, or annex it yet.
This does not bode well for any future rapprochement. IG |
Not all of Belarus are in favour, in fact a lot are not into the war, look at the rail system, plus the system could be hacked.
I still think the West need to go in, sorry, but that is how I see it, Define war crime, standing by knowing you can help but choosing not to is in my eyes just as bad. I see Boris is now wanting to give anti ship missiles to Ukraine, good. but again too late, they should have been given before the attacks on Odessa even started. I would give them cruise missiles to hit at thge Russian airbases and naval carrying out the attacks The talks are just that, hot air, Putin will not agree to anything until he has decimated those of military age and destroyed the Countries ability to grow and sustain itself. The one thing that Bucha has shown the male population is they WILL kill them, so they have nothing to lose in fighting back and resistance will be greater. |
Nutty, bang on the button again. Intervention looking necessary sooner rather than later.
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Originally Posted by WB627
(Post 11209828)
I have used a P14 from 1914 re-barrelled from .303 to 7.62 and modified to single shot at Bisley at ranges up to 800yds. It is a lovely rifle to use with. It has a modified Mauser action, which is so much better than the Lee Enfield No 4 action, that I have also used, that I wondered how we ever won a war with the Lee Enfield!
However, the old No.4's big advantage as a battle rifle was the sights (less so with the SMLE) the 10 rd capacity and the speed the bolt could be worked in combo with the trigger. I know I now have old eyes, but how the Germans ever hit anything with a K98k with the poor sights they have amazes me, but they were all 40+ years younger than I am now. |
I am in total agreement with Nutloose. Thinking of all the wars we got involved in over the last 40 years, and for much less evidence or cause or national interest, there stands no reason to deny UKR all the aid they need, of whatever kind. Especially giving stuff ( trade).
I cannot understand the reluctance to face up to Pootins nuclear blackmail, it cannot stand, or will set a tone for the next 50 years of international 'nuclear gunboat' diplomacy and encourage proliferation in many countries. |
Originally Posted by Usertim
(Post 11210035)
I am in total agreement with Nutloose. Thinking of all the wars we got involved in over the last 40 years, and for much less evidence or cause or national interest, there stands no reason to deny UKR all the aid they need, of whatever kind. Especially giving stuff ( trade).
I cannot understand the reluctance to face up to Pootins nuclear blackmail, it cannot stand, or will set a tone for the next 50 years of international 'nuclear gunboat' diplomacy and encourage proliferation in many countries. |
Originally Posted by Usertim
(Post 11210035)
I
I cannot understand the reluctance to face up to Pootins nuclear blackmail, it cannot stand, or will set a tone for the next 50 years of international 'nuclear gunboat' diplomacy and encourage proliferation in many countries. |
Today we have all seen the pictures and read the reports from Bucha: mass graves of civilians definitely dug with excavators and then filled with gravel, pink jacket sleeves still sticking out. Civilians with hands tied behind their backs and executed with a bullet in the back of the heads. Women raped and mutilated, HRW has confirmed evidence of a case in which a russian soldier raped a woman and cut her face.
Families shot dead in their cars and set on fire. This is one village, this is just the beginning. As more villages are liberated the more we will learn of atrocities by russian troops. The entire northern border and the majority of Black sea coast has been under russian command for five weeks. We will see more and more eyewitness accounts and have confirmed evidence of war crimes as time goes by. The Russian doctrine is: bomb everything into rubble, rape everyone and kill em all. They dont care if its children or adults, civilian or soldier. The west must do everything in its power to stop the madness and prevent the Russians from taking this any further. And by that I mean not a step further in Ukraine, not to Kazakhstan which has announced it will not be used to circumvene the sanctions towards Russia. Not to Poland nor the Baltics. Not to Finland or Sweden. The Russian people are living in a bubble. In the Russian medias there isn't a single word of Russian troops being in Kiev area. Not a word. There is sh*tloads of news how Russian troops are demining Donbass and arresting nazis in Mariupol. From other areas: absolutely nothing. I've spent quite some time reading TASS, RG, Gazeta, Izvestija, Pravda, and the amount of propaganda is making one mad. Russian soldier is good, Russian soldier is pure, Russian soldier is treating the bloodthirsty nazis with respect even though they are bloodthirsty nazis. Russian soldiers are saving thd women and children from the nazis and providing them milk and cookies. The Russians do not know what is happening until the war is on their home yard. Hopefully we'll get to call Pootin as Meyer one day. |
We have great Evil virtually on our doorstep.
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. The West is doing little more than virtue signalling and, I suspect, will revert to a sort of normality with Russia as soon as it thinks a decent interval has passed. To a small degree I exempt the UK, which seems to be more pugnacious than most, but the West has the means of stopping this wickedness and it's vested interests are putting the brake on. |
Agreed, but how? Do we (the civilised World) jack up the nuclear threat? Engage on the ground or in the air or at sea? I share the expressions of shock and horror at what we are seeing … that the Russian people don’t, of course. Our civilised and safe options are few.
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The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing the thing that strikes you about this saying, on a moment’s reflection, is how little sense it makes: the silence of good men isn’t the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil. The persons advancing the evil, whether in command or the rank-and-file, must be strong and determined; and the lukewarm must be either cowed into submission or willing to go along because the evil seems to prosper |
I look on the situation like we are standing at the fence of Auschwitz with the means to stop the Genocide within that fence, but instead we are standing by and watching it happen.
It sickens me to think the West has come to this, we are being held to ransom by a bunch of thugs, we all decry the Russians military and their incompetence, but at the end of the day they are systematically destroying a Country, it’s culture and it future generations, while we standby and let it happen. By allowing this to happen the West is already showing that they are weaker and are sending signals to Russia that whenever they wish to occupy a Country the West will stand back and let it happen. Operating in the Ukraine at their behest is not invading a country, tell me WTF is the difference to operating in Syria . |
Well that we are already doing. I hope that in the coming months Russian economy will plummet down the GDP table ( already they are #11). Maybe When they drop below Iran #17 they will get some kind of message.
They are only a world power these days because of their nukes, they cannot be allowed to use that as any leverage. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 11210078)
Agreed, but how? Do we (the civilised World) jack up the nuclear threat? Engage on the ground or in the air or at sea? I share the expressions of shock and horror at what we are seeing … that the Russian people don’t, of course. Our civilised and safe options are few.
On another thread someone has asked what the post-war implications might be for the Russian armed forces, and has suggested that all three have failed significantly. I would actual demur slightly from their hypothesis that all three have performed equally badly. In general terms the Russian Navy has delivered on its primary objectives of 1) blockade Black Sea and Sea of Azov; 2) bombardment of shore from sea, 3) poised amphibious forces, some unopposed landings; 4) preservation of Russian fleet (mostly) despite many opportunities for major fleet losses (so far they have only lost one sunk LST, two damaged smaller amphibs, one damaged patrol vessel ..... not so bad given Russian aviation and army losses). The Russians have been able to do all this because the Ukraine does not have a fleet that could do anything (and the small bit that it had was sunk/scuttled in the first few days), and the Ukraine does not have land-launched anti-ship long/medium range guided missiles. The Ukraine got one good shot at a Russian patrol vessel using unguiided MLRS and since then the Russians have carefully stayed out of range of that. The Ukraine's indigenously developed anti-ship missiles (Neptunes) had not been delivered prior to the war, only the launcher vehicles (TELs). The Ukraine has to prioritise its few aviation assets either for the air war, or for anti-ground missions. So where am I going with this ? 1. Give the Ukraine Longer range anti-ship missiles out of stocks of any Western nation willing. Give them the means to obtain targetting data. Give them the means to run the comms to mesh that together. Obviously that cannot be using NATO assets or active western military assets. So instead that could be near real-time satellite data (Maxar or similar, though Maxar itself is under new ownership) plus unblockable real-time comms (Starlink). I think the Maxar revisit rate is good enough to get targetting solutions with a little bit of help from other sources. The missiles & launchers will need to be either land-launched Harpoon or Exocet, or aviation-launched Hellfire or similar shorter range anti-ship - the Switchblade 600 would just about do given the observed Russian naval loitering boxes. The Switchblade solution would be the easiest to deliver even if it was the least effective in a naval scenario. Some of the smaller ATGMs are light enough to mount on the bigger drones that folk are getting creative with. Even if such attacks were not successful they would have the benefit of preventing the Russian navy from full freedom of action. 2. Break the blockade. Unfortunately because of the Montreux Convention the main western navies cannot just rock up and protect their nation-flagged fleet in the normal way using their grey funnel lines. And it is quite a big ask to expect Romania or Bulgaria or Turkey to do this. So this would require some creative thinking by the West to utilise existing civil shipping in the Black Sea to break the blockade. I think there are varieties on the theme of putting Western armed forces onto their flagged shipping (or flags under their protection) and using the civilian vessels to break the blockade. For example reflag UKR merchant fleet to UK, then put armed parties on the vessels. Being realistic one would need to identify vessels that could take helicopters on, then one has decent enough assets to call the bluff. As many of the issues here are normal law of the sea/Montreux Convention legal ones, as military (naval) issues but of course are for political impact. Once broken it becomes possible to move heavy cargo into Odessa more easily. 3. .... and of course all the other more obvious stuff that everyone else is saying. Just a thought that others may wish to biite on. |
Cut the gas. Today.
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Originally Posted by Beamr
(Post 11210103)
Cut the gas. Today.
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Stop using RF gas and oil. Same as the Baltic states did yesterday, completely.
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Originally Posted by Usertim
(Post 11210090)
They are only a world power these days because of their nukes, they cannot be allowed to use that as any leverage.
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Originally Posted by petit plateau
(Post 11210094)
1. Give the Ukraine Longer range anti-ship missiles out of stocks of any Western nation willing. Give them the means to obtain targetting data. Give them the means to run the comms to mesh that together. Obviously that cannot be using NATO assets or active western military assets. So instead that could be near real-time satellite data (Maxar or similar, though Maxar itself is under new ownership) plus unblockable real-time comms (Starlink). I think the Maxar revisit rate is good enough to get targetting solutions with a little bit of help from other sources. The missiles & launchers will need to be either land-launched Harpoonx .
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