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-   -   MoD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/617525-mod-may-destroy-mull-kintyre-chinook-crash-records.html)

tucumseh 2nd Jun 2019 19:11

Out of Trim

I cannot speak for Fort George, except it was polar the last time I stayed there in 1977. But it's secure, in the sense there is a resident battalion, which would be a factor. It was the go to Army place in the area after the move from Cameron Barracks in Inverness. The orginal tasking was for two Pumas, from the squadron the Chinooks were attached to. This was changed at the last minute, it is claimed on the direction of one of the Army passengers. The other Chinook, a Mk1, was unserviceable. The aircraft captain had asked for it to be used instead.

Chugalug2 2nd Jun 2019 19:47

Lima Juliet:-

The most plausible and likely is that it was CFIT
Given that among the many airworthiness problems that afflicted this fleet; "positively dangerous" FADECS that lacked any manual reversion, and flight control malfunctions, 'controlled flight into terrain' might be seen as an 'if only' possibility. Of course an independent (like truly independent!) accident investigation could not produce a 100% certain outcome. Many aviation accident investigations fail that test, but given that its gross unairworthiness was scarcely considered by the BoI, and its findings anyway were overturned by the VSO Reviewing Officers who demonstrated their finding of Gross Negligence of the JO pilots to a Commons Committee with very contentious postulations, it is time that the facts surrounding the Release to Service of the Chinook Mk2 are considered fully with respect to this dreadful tragedy in a fresh accident investigation.

This wasn't a one off, though it is to date the worst airworthiness related military fatal air accident suffered by this country. On that basis alone it deserves further independent investigation in order to avoid future UK Airworthiness Related Military Fatal Air Accidents, the only acceptable reason for any air accident investigation.

jayteeto 2nd Jun 2019 20:41

We did this for years and years. The armchair investigators have started after a few posts. Moderators, do we really have to do this over and over again? It’s only a matter of time before we get onto secret homing beacons.
YOU may think it was CFIT/FADEC/SECRET HOMERS or even ALIENS. But you don’t know because you weren’t there, you have no proof and you’re dragging the reputation of the crew back into the public forum.

please!! It’s the anniversary. Let us remember our people in peace without this circus starting again.

RIP guys, it was an honour to serve with you

Bill Macgillivray 2nd Jun 2019 21:28

John,

It was an honour and also a great pleasure to have known and worked with you in SOAF. A true professional and a great guy!

Bill

minigundiplomat 2nd Jun 2019 21:52


Moderators, do we really have to do this over and over again?

Agreed. Thanks Jayteeto

Chugalug2 2nd Jun 2019 23:46


Originally Posted by jayteeto (Post 10484999)
We did this for years and years. The armchair investigators have started after a few posts. Moderators, do we really have to do this over and over again? It’s only a matter of time before we get onto secret homing beacons.
YOU may think it was CFIT/FADEC/SECRET HOMERS or even ALIENS. But you don’t know because you weren’t there, you have no proof and you’re dragging the reputation of the crew back into the public forum.

please!! It’s the anniversary. Let us remember our people in peace without this circus starting again.

RIP guys, it was an honour to serve with you

1. It was RAF VSOs that dragged the reputation of the crew into disrepute, never mind the public forum.

2. It was the "armchair investigators" that produced evidence of the illegal RTS to Lord Philip that at last obliged HMG to set aside the Reviewing Officers' Finding of pilot Gross Negligence.

3. That the MOD and RAF VSOs still quibble with SoS Fox's statement is a comment on them, not on the reputations of the pilots which have been fully restored in any fair minded analysis.

4. Read the OP. 25 of those deceased were pax. Their families deserve better than the muttered blame game still being put about by the apologists.

5. No, I wasn't there and I wouldn't want anyone to be there again either. That is why I support the campaign to reform UK Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation.

6. Read the OP. There is a quote from the son of one of the deceased that condemns the treatment that his mother received from the MOD. Do you want the mods to shut that off as well?

7. If this tragedy hadn't been mishandled from the word go, others might have lived instead of dying in subsequent airworthiness related fatal air accidents.

8. I know how painful it is to lose friends and colleagues in air accidents. You want the rest of the world to butt out and leave you in peace. That is how I remember feeling too. I was wrong. That tragedy had to be properly investigated and lessons learned. It was and they were. Mull deserves no less.

tucumseh 3rd Jun 2019 06:59


Originally Posted by jayteeto (Post 10484999)
The armchair investigators have started after a few posts. Moderators, do we really have to do this over and over again? It’s only a matter of time before we get onto secret homing beacons.
YOU may think it was CFIT/FADEC/SECRET HOMERS or even ALIENS. But you don’t know because you weren’t there, you have no proof and you’re dragging the reputation of the crew back into the public forum.


Jayteeto, you are conflating rigorous investigations that uncovered irrefutable facts accepted by Lord Philip; with pet theories which have never been proven. Unfortunately, the BBC's main article this week takes you directly to a website pushing the latter. They continue to pander to the guilty. Their go-to retired senior officer is the one who said the pilots were 'miles off course'. Not a single person in MoD demurred, presumably because of his rank. That's why independent investigators are needed, and if they choose an armchair over a swivel seat when sifting the evidence, then so be it. (A rocking chair works).

The question needs to be - why did MoD's investigators not uncover the facts? That retirees got there, rather quickly and with ease, seems to have upset many. So much so, MoD now withholds SI reports until after the Inquests, to prevent proper investigation. One needs to appreciate that the evidence that persuaded Lord Philip was precisely the same as that to the Nimrod and XV179 coroners, and Haddon-Cave. Investigation, singular.

There are 29 families, not just two, and they are now in the situation where the RAF's findings have been set aside, but not replaced with anything. If they ask MoD for the official report, it still says the same. They have the oblique legalese of Lord Philip's report, which a 5 year old can drive a bus through. They have Hansard, where MPs and Lords use parliamentary privilege to repeat the lies of the Air Staff. Only the Fatal Accident Inquiry comforts them.

jayteeto 3rd Jun 2019 10:52

I get that. But we have already had the “it must have been” or “I think”. Mark my words, the loony theories will be here soon. You know the armchair people I am targeting here. Not the people who know facts and are making people listen. I walked out to the aircraft with Jon Tapper. I know for a FACT what he was thinking about the aircraft and the task. It wasn’t good. I know for a fact about their lack of trust in the Mk2 and why. He told me straight. I’ve always supported the fight to get better regulation. What I don’t support is this thread descending into a farce of people trying to tell us that what they think MUST be true.

ShyTorque 3rd Jun 2019 11:02

JT2, I agree with your sentiments.

The facts are that we don't know the facts and never will. I think on this thread at least, it should be let lie.

racedo 3rd Jun 2019 11:06

RIP those who died.

Have my own theories but this not the place.

Chugalug2 3rd Jun 2019 12:01

It is in the nature of the internet that anyone can post here whatever they wish. It is in the nature of PPRuNe that those who disabuse that privilege can be moderated or even banned. That is for the mods rather than we members. The reason that this 25th anniversary of the tragedy is so significant is that the MOD is poised to destroy records relating to this tragedy (in addition to those that will already have been destroyed). It is for the OP to state if this thread is solely an in memoriam one or one that again raises the profile of this long running scandal of VSO Cover-Up.

The final 'fighting back' thread was arbitrarily locked off following the SoS setting aside the Reviewing Officers' finding. Fair enough, but such acts nominally taken on behalf of the families often fly in the face of their wishes. Time and again they are the ones who support reform so that other families might be spared the grief that they have suffered.

ShyTorque 3rd Jun 2019 12:15

This thread is still open!!

ShyTorque 3rd Jun 2019 12:17

Chuga,

Please see this thread is still running: https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...records-5.html.

SASless 3rd Jun 2019 12:27

I have watched the discussions of this tragedy over the years and have developed a very jaundiced view of how the RAF, MoD, Civil Authorities, Courts, and Parliament (shall we say "officialdom") have acquitted themselves in that time.

It was because of the outcry by many that the two Pilot's had their name cleared.

The most probable cause of the crash has not been properly evaluated and put to paper YET.

We see a thread called "Who speaks for the dead?" and no one challenges it being here or when the Nimrod Crash gets brought up....again no one complains.

The RAF Senior Staff and others within Government have not conducted themselves in the manner one would think they should....and that should not be tolerated.

I submit that as opposed to "dragging the crew's names into this yet again"....keeping the records intact and the incomplete investigation in the public eye is actually honoring the Crew and the Passengers killed in the crash.

Personally, I think we owe the dead that respect as they paid a terrible price along with their loved ones who were left behind.

Some very serious fingers need pointing at those who have frustrated laying out all of issues that were factors in the crash and they should not be allowed to walk away unscathed over this.

I honestly believe that if it had been me that came to rest on those rocks.....be I at fault or not.....that the truth was determined as best possible so that others might not wind up as I did.

All those people died in the service of the Realm.....and they deserve a legitimate investigation into how and why that happened with blame assessed where blame is deserved.

Sadly, had those in senior positions not devoted their efforts to deflecting blame and instead sought the honest by God truth....we would all be better served including those lost that day.

jayteeto 3rd Jun 2019 15:48

��ok, fair play, but I will be robustly challenging anyone who starts on wild theories or who produce their opinions as fact.......

Clunk60 3rd Jun 2019 17:53

SASless,

Hear, hear! Fully agreed.

Chugalug2 3rd Jun 2019 18:05

SASless, thank you for your thoughtful and supportive post. It really helps.

jayteeto, thank you too for conceding to SASless at least. We are all really as one, I hope, in not wanting any more of these avoidable tragedies, no matter the cause.

ShyTorque, thank you for drawing attention again to the Parliamentary Petition thread which is still current and from which anyone can add to the petition calling for all records relating to the Mull of Kintyre crash to be retained at Kew. Or follow this link if you wish:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/237925

Please sign. The OP was the "really irritating" OP of the three Hitting Back threads, and hopefully will not cease to be just as irritating in the future!

tucumseh 3rd Jun 2019 18:07


Originally Posted by jayteeto (Post 10485561)
��ok, fair play, but I will be robustly challenging anyone who starts on wild theories or who produce their opinions as fact.......

Well said.

ShyTorque 3rd Jun 2019 19:18

Chugalug, I was one of the very first to sign, having had a message from the "Irritating Sod" himself. ;)

Lordflasheart 3rd Jun 2019 19:45

.......
Jay,

“I walked out to the aircraft with Jon ….” would be, for me, a very scary recollection.

Have you read the ‘good book’ on ZD576 ? - If not, “Their Greatest Disgrace” by David Hill is readily available from the usual watery place and the €-version is a mere £3.99. ... No aliens or wild theories, and given the opportunity, no challenge by the MoD about the facts therein.

Alternately, could I take the liberty of mailing you a spare copy as a gift, if you wished ? ... I will pm you.

LFH

..........


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