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-   -   MoD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/617525-mod-may-destroy-mull-kintyre-chinook-crash-records.html)

Brian Dixon 22nd Jan 2019 15:28

MoD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records
 
Well, I never thought I would be posting here again so hello, and Happy New Year, to all who may remember me.

This year sees 25 years since that terrible crash and it would appear that the MoD are considering disposing of all records relating to the crash and subsequent 17 year campaign to clear Rick and Jon's name. There is an article in the Scottish Times about this (can't link, sorry).

I don't feel the need (or desire) to revisit the crash and campaign itself as I feel that everyone has rightly moved on, but am seeking support in ensuring all documentation relating to this sorry episode is retained in the National Archive. To that end, I have raised an on-line petition and would seek your support. If you feel the urge, may I also ask you to send the link / write to your MP and make them aware. The petition can be found here:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...cVXGrUSykC6kMc


Wording of the petition is:

My petition:

Ensure ALL records relating to the Chinook crash in 1994 are archived at Kew
The Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre, on 2 June 1994, resulted in the loss of 29 souls. The pilots of the Chinook were wrongly blamed for the accident, resulting in a 17 year fight to clear their names. It was eventually proved that the MoD had wrongly blamed the deceased pilots.

This 17 year miscarriage of justice brought about immense public support, several Parliamentary debates in both Houses, EDMs, reports from the National Audit Office and countless items of correspondence to, and from, the Ministry of Defence. Collectively, this is an important record of MoD, and RAF, failings and the loss of this would be detrimental to providing important learning opportunities for future military leaders.
---------

Please forgive my intrusion on the Forum. I assure you all that I have no intention of becoming the Irritating Sod once again! This is just a short spell back in the spotlight.
My best to you all, as always.
Brian

XM147 22nd Jan 2019 16:15

Welcome back

Cows getting bigger 22nd Jan 2019 16:35

Yes, this one is too important to be lost.

ExGrunt 22nd Jan 2019 16:42

Signed - It is important that future researchers can access the details of this important event.

EG

cafesolo 22nd Jan 2019 17:00

Surely always welcome. Signed (04691).

BEagle 22nd Jan 2019 17:15

Hi Brian! Hope all's well with you - I've also signed.

1066 22nd Jan 2019 17:31

Just signed. Funny smell if they want to destroy the records of an accident that generated so much controversy.
Petition says that only 5 more signatures needed to go "live".
1066

treadigraph 22nd Jan 2019 17:34

Got this message :* - will gladly sign it when it's made available again...


We’re checking this petition

5 people have already supported Brian Dixon’s petition.

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Thud105 22nd Jan 2019 18:17

"It would appear that the MoD are considering disposing of all records relating to the crash."

Now, why would they do that?

Jimlad1 22nd Jan 2019 18:24

Is there any hard evidence e.g. factual statements to support these assertions, or is it hearsay and rumour?

Rigga 22nd Jan 2019 19:30

We’re checking this petition

5 people have already supported Brian Dixon’s petition.

We need to check it meets the petition standards before we publish it.

Please try again in a few days.



More than willing to help. See you in a few days!

tucumseh 22nd Jan 2019 20:12


Is there any hard evidence e.g. factual statements to support these assertions, or is it hearsay and rumour?
Current issue arises from this, in Hansard...

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...t/00626w01.htm

Lord Chalfont asked Her Majesty's Government:
  • Whether any papers or documents relating to the crash of Chinook Helicopter ZD 576 have been or are being destroyed; and, if so, whether they will ensure that there is no further such destruction.[HL2738]
  • Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: None of the original Board of Inquiry papers, written evidence or papers held by the branch with lead responsibility for matters concerning the crash has been destroyed. When they are eventually archived, they will be assigned a review date of 25 years, with a recommendation for permanent retention. At the 25-year point they will be examined for the suitability for transfer to the Public Record Office in accordance with the provision of the Public Records Act 1958 and 1967.

    26 Jun 2000 : Column WA52

But the lead branch (the Chinook Integrated Project Team) did not hold the most relevant evidence, because the Directorate of the Air Staff and Air Member Logistics had concealed it from them. The reply does not preclude destruction by the Air Staff or Air Member Logistics’ successors of that evidence - and that is what they did.

By the time of the Mull of Kintyre Review, MoD was denying the very existence of key evidence, such as the Release to Service and the policy statement that the FADEC software was safety critical. It had lied to families about both. Both documents had to be supplied to Lord Philip by campaigners.




    Thud_and_Blunder 22nd Jan 2019 20:18

    Brian! Your presence is always welcomed and valued, even if it's a harbinger for more potential MoD misdeeds. Will also be checking back onto the petition website in a few days.

    (we're prepping the house for forthcoming-retirement-related move back to Devon, and I was going through old paperwork. Found the GW1 inoculation certificates which you wisely suggested we hang onto, in direct contradiction to the 'request' from above; have always trusted your judgment :) )

    Brian Dixon 22nd Jan 2019 20:54

    Thanks everyone for the welcomes and especially for the support.
    T&B, let me know when you are back in Devon and settled, I'm sure I can get the motorbike out on a sunny day and ride over that way.

    I can confirm that 20 people have been acknowledged as supporting the petition before it was taken off-line for 'assessment' (don't hold your breath, I may have set a claxon off somewhere!), so thank you to those individuals. As soon as it is back on line, please sign up and get friends and family to do so too please.

    Jimlad1 - the attachments should show you where I got the information from (if I can remember how to do it).

    As always, many thanks all, for your support.
    Brian

    https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ab516042a.jpeg
    Taken from the Scottish Times
    https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f73b5c077.jpeg
    Taken from the Scottish Times

    Cat Techie 22nd Jan 2019 22:26

    Petition? Take out an injuction that all records are tx to Kew and are open.

    MPN11 23rd Jan 2019 09:55

    Waiting to sign when possible.

    Chugalug2 23rd Jan 2019 17:35

    Me too, and I wonder how many petitions are put on hold like this while they are checked 'for a few days'?

    Good to see you still pushing back Brian Dixon! Those who might think that Mull was all done and dusted with SoS Liam Fox's statement to the HoC should ask themselves if the two deceased JO pilots blamed by the Air Rank Reviewing Officers were not Grossly Negligent, then who was? For 29 people died in this tragedy due to such Gross Negligence that has been the subject of a cover up ever since.

    Another link here:-

    https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/tr...year-1-8776839

    Out Of Trim 23rd Jan 2019 21:07

    Waiting to sign also!

    thunderbird7 24th Jan 2019 09:07

    Likewise. Too important to be swept under the table.

    tucumseh 24th Jan 2019 10:16

    Lady Sylvia Hermon MP (North Down), whose late husband was RUC Chief Constable Jack Hermon, has tabled questions in the House. Well done the RUC widows.

    matkat 25th Jan 2019 01:48

    Also waiting to sign, ex-tech Chinook and Puma flight(PCSF) Gutersloh

    Cows getting bigger 25th Jan 2019 06:03

    I'll just put a personal view on why this is so important.

    I looked upon Rick Cook as a close friend. We were together at Gutersloh in the mid/late-80s and we flew together in the Falklands in April/May1988. On one trip, I remember Rick categorically refusing to scud-run up the side of a hill to collect two signallers who had been maintaining a rebro site; they had to walk down the hill to the CH47. In those three or four years we experienced the needless death of friends on a number of occasions (To recollect a few - Dave Sunderland/John Carver - Otterburn. Phil Brewer, Jim McMenemy & Glynn Jones - Hannover. Paul 'Ada' Adams & Pete Smith - Gutersloh. Colin Burns and the rest of the crew of Dylan - Harris).

    Rick was a gentleman, intelligent, funny and highly professional. I'm sure there are at least 28 sets of similar personal thoughts dating back more than 25 years.

    Brian Dixon, John Cook and many others spent well over a decade fighting to right the obvious 'wrong'; John never had the honour of seeing his son's name cleared. But that should be just half the story. There will be a time where all the information needs to be brought together to present a true and accurate consensus, warts & all; 2nd June 1994 was one of the RAF's darkest hours and 28 families deserve the right to retain all the facts.

    "Justice has no Expiry Date" - John Cook

    weemonkey 25th Jan 2019 12:06

    Okay........
     
    :=

    "We’re checking this petition

    5 people have already supported Brian Dixon’s petition.

    We need to check it meets the petition standards before we publish it.

    Please try again in a few days."

    Lokwyr 25th Jan 2019 17:22

    Waiting to sign.

    k3k3 26th Jan 2019 17:08

    I've emailed my MP politely asking WTF?

    kintyred 26th Jan 2019 22:16

    It beggars belief that such valuable material would ever be destroyed. There is much to be learned from studying it.....indeed it should be required background reading for anyone involved in Military Flight Safety. Such a depressing litany of lies and failure must never be allowed to be forgotten overwise we run the risk of a repetition. May I again recommend David Hill's excellent book 'Their Greatest Disgrace'? Not the source documents we are petitioning to retain but an outstanding précis of the while sorry tale.

    Brian Dixon 27th Jan 2019 18:57

    Hi all.
    Firstly, thanks for your patience in respect of the petition. I have no control over how long it will be off-line or, indeed, if it will be alowed to proceed, but as soon as I know for definite, I will let you know.

    Just as an update, I can let you know that the concern for the documentation is gaining momentum. The story has also been picked up by the media in Northern Ireland:
    https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ch...iles-1-8783038

    Whilst we are waiting for the outcome of the petition, may I ask that you consider contacting your local MP and canvass their support.
    As previously, we couldn't do this without your support.

    Thank you, one and all.
    My best,
    Brian

    Dave Sharpe 27th Jan 2019 19:09

    Shirley -any thing in the past history of flight safety that can prevent a repeat of loss of life that's has associated documentation should be preserved and not just destroyed for any reason so mistakes ( or lack of openness by those in power ) can be freely and frankly discussed to prevent a similar accident in the future -or is that just a too simplistic viewpoint

    Arkroyal 28th Jan 2019 02:05

    Hello Brian! Great to see you back here you irritating sod!
    I’ll be signing as soon as I can and writing to my MP, who luckily is not the same one I had during the campaign. That obstructive so and so Andrew Robathan now resides in the Lords!

    Ill see see what his successor Mr Costa makes of it.

    I still remember well sitting behind Wratten in the HoL select committee enjoying him squirming under the questioning.

    You won then, Brian. You’ll win this too!

    Lonewolf_50 28th Jan 2019 18:26

    I have no standing to sign, being on the other side of the pond, but I would like to offer best wishes on a positive result from this in terms of the issue and its flight safety aspect seeing the light of day.

    tucumseh 29th Jan 2019 07:14

    Question:To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what steps the Government is taking to preserve the records relating to the crash of the RAF Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre on 2 June 1994; and where those records are currently archived. (211684) Tabled on: 23 January 2019

    Answer:Mr Tobias Ellwood:Ministry of Defence (MOD) records that were closed in 1995 and 1996 will be reviewed for release or alternative disposal this year. These reviews have not been completed, and a decision will be made in due course.The records relating to the crash of the RAF Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre on 2 June 1994 are currently archived with the MOD's Air Historical Branch (RAF) at RAF Northolt. The answer was submitted on 28 Jan 2019 at 17:37.





    That is, crucial papers from 1993 and 1994 have already been reviewed and, judging from what was released a month ago, not much remains. It is well-known that MoD denies the stuff from Sept/Oct 1993 exists, yet (probably inadvertently) quoted it in a Ministerial briefing some years ago. The part of the airworthiness audit trail where Controller Aircraft (Spiers) told the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Bagnall) that he was not permitted to issue a Release to Service, but did. Thereby making a false declaration to aircrew (and passengers). See Philip Report, para 2.2.8. Hopefully the follow-up papers from Air Marshal Austin won't be destroyed this year. Ah, Austin, another name that emerged late in the day and has never been interviewed. Or perhaps he was, but those papers remain hidden....

    melmothtw 30th Jan 2019 06:51

    Also may be of interest, from Hansards (scroll to near the bottom of the page) - https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...defence#g367.5

    Donkey9871 30th Jan 2019 19:14

    Retention of records
     
    I seem to recall (having worked in an IPT) that airworthiness documents must be retained for at least 10 years after the out of service date of the equipment. I'd imagine that documentation relating to a crash would fall into that category.

    Chugalug2 30th Jan 2019 23:47


    Originally Posted by Donkey9871 (Post 10375813)
    I seem to recall (having worked in an IPT) that airworthiness documents must be retained for at least 10 years after the out of service date of the equipment. I'd imagine that documentation relating to a crash would fall into that category.

    Given that this aircraft was unairworthy, and positively dangerous according to Boscombe Down who grounded their trials aircraft and suggested that the RAF do the same with their (already in service!) fleet, it would seem that different rules apply both then and ever since thanks to the cover up of the improper Release to Service of the Chinook Mk2.

    tucumseh 31st Jan 2019 00:14

    Donkey

    Good first post! Unfortunately, MoD confirms it doesn't hold the 1992-3 (un)airworthiness documents I mention. Luckily, we have two letters signed a few weeks after the accident confirming the Air Staff knew beforehand it wasn't airworthy. MoD and Ministers (esp Adam Ingram) denied their existence, but Lord Philip chose to believe the physical evidence.

    As you've worked in an aircraft IPT (as have I) can you ever recall the concept of a time-limited Release to Service? The Chinook HC Mk2 one ran out two weeks after the accident. It was for ground training and familiarisation only, and this was to be extended because Controller Aircraft had stated it was not airworthy. To me, the very notion is barking but someone else might say it was common practice.

    BEagle 31st Jan 2019 16:20

    Now available for signature!

    XN593 31st Jan 2019 16:25

    Petition
     
    Just checked, the petition is open.
    I have signed but we need more than 23.
    XN593

    treadigraph 31st Jan 2019 16:49

    Signed....

    Out Of Trim 31st Jan 2019 17:01

    Signed also...

    airsound 31st Jan 2019 17:47

    Just signed - and it says there are now 31 signatures

    airsound


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