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-   -   MoD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/617525-mod-may-destroy-mull-kintyre-chinook-crash-records.html)

threep 22nd Feb 2019 06:18


Cows getting bigger 22nd Feb 2019 18:23

Lady Hermon used to be my MP; she is an honourable person.

Why would MOD want to waste manpower sorting-out 'important' from 'un-important' records? Nothing short of complete retention of all existing records is good enough.

LOMCEVAK 23rd Feb 2019 14:55


Accepting that the attitudes have changed in the UK MoD since the time of the accident, I find it very sad that in the current climate of a 'just culture' the potential for destroying these files, which represent a sad chapter of injustice, should exist.


Chugalug2 24th Feb 2019 07:41


Accepting that the attitudes have changed in the UK MoD since the time of the accident, I find it very sad that in the current climate of a 'just culture' the potential for destroying these files, which represent a sad chapter of injustice, should exist.

While I would agree that the Gross Negligence that enabled a knowingly Grossly Unairworthy Fleet to receive an RTS and be put into Squadron Service, even while still being evaluated by Boscombe Down (who stopped testing and grounded their own test aircraft, urging the RAF to do the same), would make repetition unlikely, the cover up by the MOD and the RAF High Command continues unhindered. It is that very cover up that threatens destruction of the remaining 'unimportant' records of this tragedy.

We may append as many comforting words and titles as we please; just culture, Military Aviation Authority, independent, etc, but they are seen for what they are when an operator, investigator, regulator, are one and the same (aka the MOD) and can destroy such records at its whim.

This accident, more than any other, spells out 25 years on the dysfunctional mess that is UK Military Air Safety. These records must be rescued intact from the MOD's grip as per the OP. Military Air Regulation and Investigation must be made truly independent of the MOD and of each other.

Self Regulation Doesn't Work, and in Aviation It Kills!

meadowbank 25th Feb 2019 19:12

MOD may destroy Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash records
Petition signed (as #1862)

melmothtw 26th Feb 2019 06:59

More from Hansards yesteday:


https://www.theyworkforyou.com/images/mps/10211.jpgLord Foulkes of Cumnock Labour

To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to the Written Answer by Earl Howeon 7 February (HL13095), whether a Fatal Accident Inquiry was carried out into any of those deaths; and if so, which.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/images/unknownperson.pngEarl HoweThe Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, Deputy Leader of the House of Lords

There was a Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) carried out following the crash of a Chinook in June 1994 on the Mull of Kintyre which concluded it was impossible to establish the exact cause of the crash.

Since the formation of the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Inquest Unit (DIU) in 2008 there have been no FAIs. Before the formation of the DIU, Inquests were dealt with by the individual Services (Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force), the DIU does not have access to any records that may have been retained from this period. It is, however, unlikely that these records have been retained under the MOD records retention policy which is normally five years from date of opening.

We have held discussions with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscals Service (COPFS), to determine if there any other FAIs have been held. COPFS have advised it is not possible to confirm how many FAIs have taken place into military deaths in Scotland since 1990. The COPFS database is based on individual specific information i.e. name, date of birth, date of death and not on occupation. It is not searchable on occupation and we are advised that any search would also return deaths of individuals from natural causes, which could amount to many hundreds of records and would need to be manually searched. This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

golfbananajam 26th Feb 2019 08:10

signed #1864

Shared the petition on Twitter too

Thaihawk 5th Mar 2019 08:37

Signed number 1894.

NAROBS 6th Mar 2019 09:18

Down an Ex-salt mine or radon city for the last 17 years ? How much will still be legible ?


parabatix 7th Mar 2019 21:53

Fond memories of my old O.C. Bob 'Fire Eater' Burke sticking it up 'em- they didn't like it much!

kaikohe76 9th Mar 2019 01:05

As many people have said or suggested on this site before, ``the only reason why the crash & other records would be destroyed, is because there is something in there, the powers that be, do not want us to know about`` Think Security.

tucumseh 2nd Jun 2019 05:37

Chinook ZD576 - 25 years
Major Richard Allen
Colonel Christopher Biles
Detective Inspector Dennis Bunting
Detective Chief Superintendent Desmond Conroy
Flight Lieutenant Richard Cook
Martin Dalton
Detective Superintendent Phillip Davidson
Detective Inspector Stephen Davidson
John Deverell
Major Christopher Dockerty
Assistant Chief Constable Brian Fitzsimons
Master Airloadmaster Graham Forbes
Detective Superintendent Robert Foster
Lieutenant Colonel Richard Gregory- Smith
Detective Superintendent William Gwilliam
Sergeant Kevin Hardie
John Haynes
Major Antony Hornby
Anne James
Detective Inspector Kevin Magee
Michael Maltby
Detective Chief Superintendent Maurice Neilly
Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix
Major Roy Pugh
Stephen Rickard
Major Gary Paul Sparks
Flight Lieutenant Jonathan Tapper
Lieutenant Colonel John Tobias
Lieutenant Colonel George Williams

‘My mother has been lied to by the MoD. It treated my family with utter contempt following the crash and despicably tried to enact the Warsaw Air Carriage Act to limit payouts to the widows and families. Hardly the actions of a moral outfit.
Even after we overturned this obscene effort they forced my mother to produce receipts for the clothes my father wore on the day of his death, and list how many potatoes he would eat in an average year as part of their quest to limit compensation. The callousness was breathtaking and displayed a complete lack of integrity.
Quite frankly we were treated like Irish peasants by uncaring, absentee feudal landlords and the disdain was palpable’.

Niven Phoenix, son of Detective Superintendent Ian Phoenix, RUC (late Parachute Regiment) - February 2019

Lordflasheart 2nd Jun 2019 08:14

From BBC News and others.

Two special commemoration services will be held on the Mull of Kintyre later (today) to mark the 25th anniversary of the RAF Chinook helicopter disaster.

Relatives of the 29 people who died are expected to join the congregation at Southend Parish Church of Scotland.

The helicopter was on its way from RAF Aldergrove near Belfast, to Inverness on 2 June, 1994 when it crashed into a remote hillside.

Rev Stephen Fulcher is leading both services, the first at 11:45.

He said: "This is the 25th anniversary of a tragedy that had a huge impact on this very small rural community and remains to this day a living memory for many people. "A lot of local residents have kept up contact with relatives of the people who were aboard the helicopter and continue to hold them in their thoughts and prayers to this day. "This is an anniversary of national significance and I expect quite a lot of local people will attend the service because many of them vividly remember that fateful day like it was yesterday."

Former local lighthouse keeper Hector Lamont, who was first on the scene of the crash which occurred during thick fog, is expected to be among people paying their respects.

Representatives from the emergency services, Lord Lieutenant for Argyll and Bute, Patrick Stewart, Deputy Provost of Argyll and Bute, Roderick McCuish, and local MP, Brendan O'Hara, will also be in attendance.

Following a community lunch in the village hall, a second service will be held at the memorial cairn near the crash site at 15:00.

Rev Roddy McNidder, who was the minister at Southend at the time of the disaster and helped to support the victim's families, will deliver a sermon. The minister said the 25 passengers - including leading security personnel from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), MI5 and the Army - and four crew will never be forgotten.

He will say: "This lovingly built cairn claims the ground in remembrance of the sadness of June 2, 1994, to honour your loved ones and also yourselves, your families and friends. "Each name inscribed on this cairn, which shines out every time the sun reflects upon it, calls us to remember the unique person whose name is written there.

"And to acknowledge our memories, experiences, and encounters with them, along with the hopes of what might have been over these 25 years and years still to come. "For memories engraved within our hearts will never be forgotten. The love shown to us will never be lost."

Last week the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland called on the Ministry of Defence to keep all records relating to the crash in a "safe place and not deleted". There are fears that the true cause of the accident, the worst RAF disaster in peacetime, will never be known if they are destroyed.

Former Moderator Very Rev Dr Alan McDonald told commissioners that the Ministry of Defence had confirmed that records closed in 1995 and 1996 "will be reviewed for release or alternative disposal this year".

The pilots, Flt Lts Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook, were initially accused of gross negligence.
But a fresh review in 2011 found the pilots should not have been blamed.

And from elsewhere ….

“ …. but David Hill, a retired MOD helicopter engineer and Dr Susan Phoenix, whose husband RUC Det Supt Ian Phoenix was killed, recently said the review had no remit to inquire into the actual cause of the crash.”

“ …. the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland made a fresh call for the Ministry of Defence not to destroy records ….. Members backed a motion calling for all documents relating to the crash to be “kept in a safe place and not deleted” in support of the families affected.”


Distant Voice 2nd Jun 2019 09:54

At a time when pressure is still being applied for the Lord Advocate to hold a Fatal Accident Inquiry into the Moray Firth Tornado accident of 3rd July 2012, it is difficult to believe that one was only held for the Chinook accident because civilians were on board, and they died "in the course of their employment". Service members and police officers did not count under the Scottish legal system.


Chugalug2 2nd Jun 2019 10:11

25 years on and still no official explanation of why this aircraft crashed and these 29 dedicated professionals perished. That is a national disgrace and a stain on the honour of the Royal Air Force. Now we face the possibility that the records which could reveal why they died might be yet destroyed. That church leaders have to call for that not to happen is a comment on those institutions that have reneged on their duty to investigate and to act on clear evidence that the aircraft was grossly unairworthy and should never have received an RTS.

Shame on Parliament, the MOD, the Civil and Service Police, the RAF, and the RAeS. The families cry out for justice. Let Right be Done!

chevvron 2nd Jun 2019 15:19

I'm still of the opinion that a contributing factor was the withdrawl of radar from Macrihanish a month or so before the tragic accident.
Had a radar service been available from Macrihanish, they might not have had to fly VMC below and could have climbed above icing and safety altitude in IMC. Was this ever discussed at the BOI?
But then, I'm only a retired controller who worked on Odiham Radar for many years including those when Chinooks were in service from their introduction so who am I to comment?

tucumseh 2nd Jun 2019 16:30


There was no icing clearance in the Mk2 Release to Service on 2 June 1994. It had been removed in March 1994. The pilots used what had been in the previous issue, -4C. It was reinserted after the accident. This was an administrative error.

The calculated icing altitude was below safety altitude. The aircraft captain asked if he could breach this limit, and was told NO. The Board did not say who the officer he asked took the matter to (if at all) or what the reaction was.

Lima Juliet 2nd Jun 2019 16:47

25 years on and still no official explanation of why this aircraft crashed and these 29 dedicated professionals perished.
As there is no accident recorder that will reveal the irrefutable facts, then we never will. The most plausible and likely is that it was CFIT, however, due to poor airworthiness management, then technical failure cannot be ruled out, even if less likely - it really isn’t your day if you are trying your hardest to get a task done in horrible weather and just before you are about to hit something then the aircraft packs up. Some days you really do just run out of luck when the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

RIP all, you will be remembered.

Out Of Trim 2nd Jun 2019 17:20

Is it just me, but Inverness seems a strange destination for a Security Conference and the Chinook a strange choice of aircraft to transport virtually the whole of the Northern Ireland intelligence community.

Maybe it was the only aircraft that just happened to be available in Aldergrove at the time.

RIP, I will raise a glass to them this evening! :sad:

212man 2nd Jun 2019 17:32

could have climbed above icing and safety altitude in IMC.
How do you climb above icing in IMC?

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