I could see the mod breaking the vigilants up to avoid the awkward situation of private operators having them flying in relatively short order.

Frelon,
I would be very worried if there is no proof that the 3000 hr inspection
has been done; north of £6k given the work involved.

Kestrel, you obviously missed the fact that my tongue was in my cheek :D

However, I expect that they will be attractive to somebody out there :ok:

Getting any of the vigilante flying in private hands means the exact same work needs doing, plus it would need transitioning to the g register. Everyone in the gliding world now knows about their lack of documentation, so they will need exactly the same minute inspection

Yes, and any club or individual out there wanting one will just crack on with it.

What they won't do is have endless meetings, form committees, working parties or 'recovery teams', throw hundeds of thousands at it, make promises and instantly break them, say they are working 24/7 on it when in reality they are sitting on their hands and arses, and generally do bugger all for 2 years !!!!

Earlier on in the thread, around the post #790, I made the comment that I had seen cadet numbers fall as a result of the 'pause'. This was debate and the comment challenged in some quarters.

Glad this was confirmed in the recent RAF briefing note.

I should also like to add, that it will go on being 'acutely felt' and will continue to see cadet numbers fall.

There are some who have been hanging on, hoping to see a full return to flying with lots of opportunities to get airborne. Now that is not going to happen, they to will leave.

Additionally, there are those who fall for the, 'so many opportunities to fly', li(n)e at open evenings, who then sign up, realise the truth and quit within a couple of months.

Its my guess that squadrons will be closing all over NI and Wales.

Phoenix from the ashes
 

Sky Sports
I agree; it is time that it was accepted that the ATC Gliding movement has been destroyed and both the Cadets and volunteer staff badly let down.

That the RAF allowed this to happen is a disgrace, and also the reason why those in charge should never be given the chance to oversee another 'reborn' system.

Without capable leadership and strong technical back up the organisation will never be able to repair the self inflicted damage.

However there are hundreds of capable and easily re-qualified adult instructors out there who could provide the backbone of a Gliding service not burdened by the lack of competence from the present clueless staff at the top.

The CO''s of schools that are going or have no future should seek to take the 7 decades of ability and capable operations to another organisation so the future youth can experience the unique opportunity of being part of a system that allows them to build confidence and make decisions.Gliding is a wonderful element in learning about decision making and the lessons learnt in youth are well repaid in later life. The way ahead for the 'lost' units is to grasp the facts and decide if they want to use all that experience to build for the future,rather than let it wither away. They could do worse than 'affiliate' with the GSA movement under the BGA to provide a youth 'feeder' training input that the Clubs can then build on. Nothing to loose as what you have now is lost and/or is run by complete incompetence and is going nowhere fast.

It ain't over yet!
 

I think that the RAF may be realising that the VGSs may not go quietly after all. I hope there will be backlash against the "relaunch". The way the VGS staff have been treated is appalling. Of course change may be inevitable but the lack of anything resembling leadership does no credit to the wider RAF/MOD and no disrespect to those of you who are serving or have done so.

The VGSs have given countless military aircrew, not to mention assorted commissioned and ground trades, their love of aviation and a desire to serve. They deserve much better than this.

Mushers

Signed, Bill.

What Backlash
 

Mushroom; the VGS have lost 3 (THREE) Easter Course's and yet i see no real
evidence that it caused any backlash.
Because of its 'military' background the chance of a 'shareholders revolt' is not likely nor the way things are done.
The best way to show your disgust is to remove yourself from the broken system and take the experience somewhere else.Why wait for a system led by useless no-hopers to do a turn-around;its not going to happen,it never does.
You are up against people who think politically and are not do-ers,plus you need hands on aviation staff, not refugees from the LAST CHANCE HOTEL !!!! No disrespect to refugees.Throw off the schackles of dead beats digging bigger graves and rise up to the challenge of doing what you know best for the future of the potential air minded youth.

Current count signatures #11,896

so over the first hurdle of 10,000

Arc

Just trying to keep the second hand value of my G109 up...:)

Out of interest, how many first solos were there in the VGS' last full year of operation? are those stats available?


7700

Solo Stats
 

Squawking 7700,

The Air Cadets achieved 1386 1st solos in 2011.

The Olympics in 2012 skewed figures (some VGSs were temporarily closed over the summer) and I don't have the figure for 2013. Someone else might though.

The target for 2014 (pre-grounding) was for 2077 Gliding Scholarships, not all of which would have resulted in 1st solos (Silver Wings). The 'hit rate' is typically around 75-80%.

Any ATC instructors out there are welcome to transfer their experience and knowlege to their local civilian gliding club. And we are happy when the youngsters turn up as well.

Just check on the British Gliding Association website, we wear aircraft and parachutes, not uniforms.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...rs-in-scotland

All aboard the outrage bus...:mad::mad::mad:

I believe that Cadet numbers fell by ~4,000 due to the Grob Tutor prop problem, then the harness issue and then the glider issues - however this drop would have been even worse if the Year 8 kids hadn't been allowed to join at an earlier age!

So I think you can safely say that over 1 in 10 have left due to a loss of flying opportunities...:{

A sad endictment for the 75th Anniversary Year of the Air Cadets

CPL Clott

My local Aero Club is also very supportive of the Air Cadets and do everything in their power to make them welcome in uniform or not.

Signed. For sanity's sake, I'm glad I've not hung around the VGS for the last couple of years and just cracked on with civvy flying instead. I'll hand my kit in and crack on with my hours build. My old VGS is one of the surviving units, but this debacle shows exactly what loyal, long-serving volunteers can expect from an organisation that is as spiteful as it is clueless.

For the last 2 years, the ATC has made its staff and cadets choose between either flying or the ATC - you can't have both. What kind of air-mindedness are we trying to foster here?

My thoughts go out to those regions that have lost their VGS - whether Vigi or Viking, these were priceless national assets that showed the aviation community at its very best.

As for JM, I'm actually starting to develop a grudging respect for him. Downing 5 aircraft makes you an ace, and he's got far more kills than that after this whole admin carnival. Shame they all have RAF roundels on their fuselages.

He has not finished yet!

Subsunk

Apparently the new phrase is 'Gliding Centres of Excellence' (GCOE)- if you look at the link in Cpl Clott's post at #1861

I thought that was what the VGS already were...............

My experience of COE in my day job is that they are just Management Speak for reduced capability....................

Arc

All gliding clubs would welcome Air Cadets, except they would have to deny any relationship between joining the club and being in the Air Cadets!!

It would have been much less expensive (than this debacle) if HQAC/ACO had made money available to offer suitably qualified (and enthusiastic) cadets the opportunities to fly with either the GSA or BGA gliding clubs, rather akin to Flying Scholarships (from which I benefited many years ago). Having said that the hoops that the clubs would have to jump through are getting bigger and more frequent :ugh::ugh:

The clubs are lacking these youngsters and whilst many offer special rates to their juniors it is the current youth element that will help drive the clubs in the future.

JM you should be ashamed of what you have achieved :mad: as there appears to have been no attempts at a quick workaround despite your many promises of working 24/7 to solve the issue.

Three serviceable airframes in two years!! The Chinese would have carved 70 airframes out of solid GRP in this time :ugh:

The Unique Selling Point of the air cadet organisation is (or used to be) that it offers youngsters the opportunity to learn to fly gliders at their local gliding site.

'Regional Centres of Excellence', gliding 'simulators', 'cyber courses', 'battle management courses' etc. are hardly going to be of much interest to youngsters who simply want to learn to fly a glider and get a taste of service life..... Or to their parents?

Out of interest, has anyone been told what the actual cost of recovery to the pre-2014 state would have been?

Vote with your feet
 

The best way to show 'solidarity' and make a point is to take your expertise elsewhere (or 'regroup' out of the ATC) thereby leaving JM and his band of nit wits nothing to command or C........U....
Now that would get noticed for a 75th event.

Beags
......could still happen if anybody at HQAC/ACO/FTS is allowed to think outside the box. See above for local gliding clubs.
are now called Part Task Trainers - what wankspeak is that??

Isn't that what a BGA club offers?

Cats

For free ??

That is the whole point. The Air Cadet movement is all inclusive..............money doesn't come into it...................or social class for that matter.

Arc

Cats

Gliding clubs don't offer in addition to gliding ,camps at RAF stations, overseas camps, marksmanship, first aid training, DoE ,flying scholarships etc all in the one place .

There have been quite a few Air Cadets flying on ACO sponsored schemes in our RAFGSA club, as well as a good number who are self-funding. On the whole they have been a breath of fresh air to the club, showing quite extraordinary levels of determination and enthusiasm. One cadet last year had a 2 1/2 hour journey each way by underground and a couple of trains, and another drives a 200 mile round trip. The sad part is that as the cadets are responsible for getting themselves to the club, the most disadvantaged ones miss out.

Please Sign Up
 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124333


Come on everyone. If you haven't already done so then please sign up to the petition at the link, and please also encourage all of your friends and family to do the same. We've got one chance to rescue this, to give the air cadets of tomorrow, regardless of their background, the same opportunity that we all had. A debate in Parliament needs 100,000 signatories. This is well within reach if we all do our bit. Let's not throw the chance away.

Many years ago my primary motivation to join the Air Cadets, as a young lad, was for the flying ... which I would suggest was the primary driver for most of us back then. Based on what I have read on this thread ... I now consider myself very fortunate indeed in gaining the experience, confidence and personal responsibility that came as a direct result of chasing after every opportunity to fly ... some of which was as a result of extramural initiative on my behalf.

Given what has been said here over some 94 Pages/1,900 Posts (and you can't all be wrong) it seems that 2FTS should take a careful look at what CAS launched today ...

Quote : RAF CAS

... as it would seem that such an approach has been missing over the last two years in arriving at a High Performance Solution to the Air Cadet Gliding issue.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...3B147E9F02.pdf

Petition signed.

Air Cadets vs Self funding!
 

As a 16 year old living in south London neither I nor my parents could afford for me to follow my dream of gliding. Fortunately I was in the ATC Squadron of my Grammar school, and that allowed me to get my A & B at Hawkinge followed up by Advanced Gliding and Flying Scholarship (full PPL in those days). I went on many summer camps and a number of courses which were held at RAF Halton. I also won a reciprocal visit to Portugal as a guest of the Portuguese Air Force. All of this at the cost of a shilling per day for food!! Oh how things have changed!!
However the cadets of today have had the flying/gliding rug well and truly pulled from under their feet. I feel sure that there are some highly enthusiatic cadets out there who deserve to be awarded a gliding scholarship some time in the next two years without waiting for the Minister's promises to be fulfilled. The clubs are waiting for these enthusiastic youngsters and could (with the right funding from the ACO) fulfill their dreams too.
I feel sure that a debate in the right place could bring this funding sooner rather than later.
Get that petition signed👍👍

Our Cadets pay very little to fly. £90 pa for membership, and £8 for a winch launch and up to 30 minutes flying - a winch launch alone would cost me £8.50. It's true we don't offer all the other activities, but our cadets seem very happy spending a day on the airfield. They get very good at making sure they don't go beyond 30 minutes as it then starts costing 46p / minute, though the counting stops at somewhere a bit over 2 hours. I enjoyed flying 'for free' when I did my Silver duration, plus a few other enjoyable flights.

Like nearly all gliding clubs (and I suspect the ATC sites) public transport to the site is very poor, and that on it's own limits who can participate.

This used to be so true that, in my long gone days instructing with 622, they introduced the course to enable younger cadets to do 30 launches when they were too young to solo. I was told that this was to help retain the cadets. If it was true then it is surely still true.

Coff

That would be the same 4* that selected the current VGS option out of 7 outcomes as the one to put forward to the Minister then? I don't think singling out one individual (already named) for this travesty is fair - there are a whole bunch of them with various agendas that have 'allowed' this to happen.

Personally, I think that this will be the perfect example of a failing organisation when historians look back on HMForces in years to come. Lucklustre leadership, parochial visions, political subservience, planning in isolation, wasted money and risk aversion will all feature in a report in years to come.

Or maybe we have just seen this all before and history is still repeating itself? :}

The B Word

A part task trainer is utterly useless for teaching people to fly as it has very limited visual, no motion nor any control force feedback. How do you teach 'select, hold, trim' in something with no control forces or motion?

PTTs are fine for teaching / practising procedures and the like, but that thing in Scotland shown in Corporal Clott's link will probably lead to negative teaching.

Quite a pretty toy, but those of us who've ever taught students whose previous experience has been on MSFS and the like know full well how difficult it is to correct bad habits introduced by computer games.

"Be open minded and receptive" "Promote diverse thinking" "Encourage innovation"

I presume he has never met JM.

ATFQ, I've just got off the phone to Mechta Senior as I had sent him a link to sign the petition. He was an Air Cadet in 1944/45, and the similarities and differences with the current situation are worth a mention.

• He had to qualify on his squadron to get the opportunity to fly, although he can't remember how.
• His Air Cadet squadron provided him with a rail warrant to get from Chichester to Portsmouth on a Friday evening, where he would spend the weekend in a Nissen hut on the airfield.
• The Air Cadet gliders (Kirby Cadets) had structural issues (spar problems?), so a lot of the air cadet flying was actually done on the Portsmouth Gliding Club gliders (BAC 7 & Dagling).
• The winch was a converted balloon winch.
• The retrieve vehicles were Beaverette armoured cars which had had the armour flame cut off to leave a sort of spaceframe (and some rather jagged skin-removing edges).
• The chief instructor was Airspeed's test pilot, Ron Clear, whilst Frank Costin, later of Marcos Cars fame, was one of the other instructors.
• Once a cadet had completed a thirty second flight, his training and support from his squadron would cease, hence there were a very large number of twenty eight and twenty nine second flights ;-) .
• A lot of cadets went on to join the Portsmouth club so they could carry on flying.
• Sharing an airfield with the Airspeed factory meant that the club and Air Cadet gliders were kept supplied with parts.
• No one from Air Cadet headquarters ever came to see how things were run.

.

Clearly, then as now in the 'pause', the air cadet organisation was reliant on the goodwill of civilian clubs to function.

..... and then Cosworth?

Mandator, Cosworth was Frank's brother, Mike; although according to Wikipedia, Frank did design an ultralight glider with the other half of Cosworth, Keith Duckworth.