The B Word

Your 1881 Para 1. I suspect, as in the Corporate World, that if there were seven possible solutions then almost certainly they would have been 'ranked' in order of preference by the solution 'sponsor' ... even more likely a 'recommendation' will have been made for 'endorsement' by the CEO (or CAS in this instance).

I also deliberately implied a 'collective' responsibility by quoting '2FTS' not an individual.

Your 1881 Para 2. Your summary is probably correct.

Apologies if this has been posted before. But we could all help preserve the Air Cadet scheme by signing this petition:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124333

See also the Royal Aeronautical Society commentary written yesterday by Howard Wheeldon. I commend it to you!

Keep signing the petition - there must be at least 100,000 aviation-minded people out there who don't wish to see air cadet gliding decimated.

If only it had been decimated, its been more than halved.

Hi all, the Editor of Pilot magazine has asked me to revisit this particular scandal (for scandal it surely is) for my monthly PTT column in Pilot. I'd be grateful if any of you could tell me how many VSOs, OC BBMFs, Red Ones etc to your knowledge started out in the ATC. PMs are OK. I have a FoI request in, but am not holding my breath....
Incidentally, I know someone who is in the ATC, and they recieved a snottergram via email instructing them to 'cease and desist' promulgating the petition via social media. Just thought I'd share that little bit of info on er social media! And if you haven't yet signed the petition, why not? This debacle (for debacle it also surely is) does need bringing to the attention of parliament.

Dave, I am pretty sure that Cranwell keeps a record of cadets entering who are former Air Cadets. Fifty years ago well over half my Cranwell cadet entry were former ATC/CCF. Good luck, I look forward to seeing the article.

Dave don't forget the CCF RAF too, the VGS are often seen as part of the ATC but they support us too. Many CCF cadets have similarly had their first solo in a VGS glider.

CCF gave me a wonderful time, spent most weekends at an RAF station, Navy base or with the Army. Saw the Ceremony of the Keys at the Tower of London twice, both on foggy November nights - spooky. Also saw the SRN-1 on test in the Solent. They also helped me get a Flying Scholarship, and paid most of my Outward Bound course. ATC got me my gliding A&B as well.

Dave ...

This might help you a little with civilian celebrities.

Air Cadets - Famous Cadets

Information Source : RAF MOD Air Cadet Organisation

One presumes HQAC secured the necessary permissions to publish such information ... But I'm unable to confirm that.

AAh, fame by association - Sir Paul Nurse and I were in the same school CCF

One wonders whether those organisations, which made such a fuss about the CAA's review of air display requirements, will be equally vociferous about the future of air-minded youth in the UK?

Which matters more - some public entertainment event or the UK's future pilots?

I would venture the latter...

As for 'cease and desist' gagging orders being sent to ACO members, that's a clear acknowledgement of failed leadership....

Are they trying to gag cadets or staff, uniformed or otherwise?

I see the ATC website says that cadets 'may get the opportunity to fly in RAF Hercules, VC10s and Tristars.' Well they got one right.
mmitch.

OK, petition signed. As a cadet who got a Flying Scholarship (Tiger Moths at Croydon), Gliding 'C' (in a T21!) and an Air Cadet Exchange (across Canada to Victoria) in the 50s I was very lucky. They did then get 34 years of flying out of me, so it probably paid off. Aviation wise I flew from 16 to 65, with many happy memories. So sad and sorry to see the lack of these opportunities today. Any more I can do to help?

Wander - Uniformed staff have to be officially neutral in the execution of their duties as you will appreciate. What parents and other family members do whilst they are online is of course entirely up to them.

As an ex Air Cadet, {450 Sqdn and 143 Gliding school} I'm a bit ticked of that I am not allowed to sign the petition, I think with the mass migration from the UK in the late forties and early fifties the are many of us in the same boat. Clunck,{RCAF pilot retired}

Hi Coff

Please accept my apologies. Having reread my post I can see how it will have read - when I mentioned singling out an indivdiual, that was not pointed at you, but the wider gang of Pruners who seem intent in mentioning one of the lead individuals by name (at Leeming in the late 90s early noughties the mere mention of that name would invoke a round of drinks in the bar amongst the Air Defenders!).

I do think that plenty of senior officers have put their own agendas into the mix with this outrageous decision and that it does not boil down to one man. Don't forget that the original plan was supposedly kicked back by the RAF senior leaders in November as it allegedly did not fit with their own plans. This is the plan that the senior leaders chose second time around and, as I understand it, was far more Grob Tutor rich than the first that had more gliders. So, I think this is also bad timing in that Grob Tutors become available off of the back of MFTS in 2017 and that little fact has been gripped by a Tutor fan (or fans) over the purchase of some more gliders. Maybe they know far more than they're letting on, but replacing cheap to operate gliders for expensive Tutors (with the ridiculous amount of Air Traffic Control and Fire Cover they insist they need) just doesn't make financial sense. That's my theory, anyway! :ok:

B Word

No need to apologise, B Word, old chap ... all perfectly good here ;)

Having worked at a senior level in the Corporate World, based in the City, the 'machinations' on display here come as no personal surprise. The only people that are going to miss out here are the youngsters of today and those that might want to join in the future ... and that is unforgivable in my book.

UK Plc needs future generations following in our footsteps ... Not only to become pilots/aircrew but also aero-engineers, technicians, designers and other related skilled careers ... the opportunity to experience the thrill of flying (going solo) at an early age is most certainly a key catalyst in achieving this aim.

The next episode ... 'Who will fly the AEF Tutor' is going to be interesting :suspect:

Best ...

Coff.

Just got word today that one of my former cadets, who achieved his Gold Wings at the now disbanded 664VGS has been accepted for pilot training by Virgin Atlantic, another to add to the success list for the VGS !

I'm surprised about the level of hand-wringing going on amongst volunteers over whether or not to sign the petition. Sure, some are subject to QRs but, in reality, what are the powers at be going to do? Dismiss you from your unpaid position when there's already a chronic shortage of people to do the jobs that need doing? Are they really going to start to court-martial civilians in blue suits for highlighting the blindingly obvious? I'd love to see how that plays out in the national media. From what I can glean, you can probably count without taking off your socks the number of people from the disbanded squadrons who would still give "Pippa" Middleton, ACdre Fluffy-bunny and the RAF in general so much as the steam off their piss after all this.

If it's something you care about, ladies and gents, sign bloody thing. If you don't care or disagree with it don't. It probably won't change anything because the sqns are already being told to get everything packed up and shipped to parent units in the next week or so. Just do yourselves a favour when it comes to looking at yourselves in the mirror and show a little bit more integrity than the f**kwits who foisted this on everyone.

Cat F, restrain yourself; bad language wins no friends.

* * * * * * * *

At our gliding club, we are sponsoring 3 lads who should be flying with Air Cadets, they fly with us instead, and two are solo already.

Did all you guys realise that now we can send them solo at the age of 14? We are very proud of them, and think it a poor show that the RAF can't sponsor a flying programme with all that real estate and equipment available.

I suggest they shut down the Trident and spend the money on aviation. Who do we think we are deterring when our chief enemies are suicide bombers and the Ruskys, Germans, and Japanese are allies.

I hold a British and an American passport, and have signed the petition.

Sign Sign Sign
 

I probably sound like a stuck record, but everyone should and can sign. We owe it to ourselves and the next generation of air cadets. We live in a free society.

The Government wants to put 'the next generation first'. This is about helping them. It is unusual to be court-martialled for supporting the Government position.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124333

That's great, Mary, but those cadets are probably being paid for by the bank of mum and dad. I understand there are some training bursaries out there, but they simply can't hope to replace the scale of what the air cadets once did.

If we pull out the maps of where the planned sites will be, we will notice hoofing great holes in the poorest areas of the U.K. One sqn in Scotland (Assuming they can make the airfield operable.) nothing in Wales, nothing in NI and, once the last of the Vigilants go from Topcliffe and Woodvale, nothing North of Syerston in Nottinghamshire until you reach Kirknewton. If you live in places like the Home Counties and the Cotswolds, then it's damn close to business as usual.

What truly beggars belief are the figures I've heard thrown around concerning the amount of money that will be required to upgrade these sites so they can operate Vikings safely. And please bear in mind, that all of these places are backwaters as far as the wider MoD is concerned. Millions are being spent to upgrade places like Little Riss and Upavon when it could be spend on aircraft. To be sure, the Viking operation is perhaps a more inclusive affair for day visitors doing Fam/GIC but as a TRAINING platform, the vigilant was far more flexible in terms of its ability to deploy elsewhere, the ability to integrate with other airfield users, the smaller amount of support equipment it needed and far fewer people required to operate them. There was a very good reason why there has always been a gaggle of de-rigged Vikings at Syerston- they ran out of places to put them. What's more, the Vigliant was never used it to its full potential. For example, for the cost of installing a GMC or even just a directional gyro, it could have been used to teach nav courses in addition to ab initio training.

I firmly believe that the solution put forward was Middleton's plan from the beginning. It wasn't a secret that he was opposed to volunteer non-QSPs flying powered aircraft while he was RC North. I've been in the room with him when he said he didn't understand the need for Vigilant and Tutor for AEF and UAS (albeit this was while the Tutor was grounded so he seemed to imply that the Vigilant could perhaps be used for both- as was being mooted elsewhere.) VSOs and ministers don't make up policy in a vacuum. Unless it's something of central importance to them, they'll tend to choose the path of least resistance and pick what ever has been dressed up to be the most palatable by the "sponsor", as has already been discussed.

Instead, the ACO has committed to the far more expensive Tutor to provide powered flying. And all it will do is put bums in the air instead of providing TRAINING. I can't wait to find out where 6FTS intend to find pilots for these larger and more numerous AEFs since most of them already have quite severe manning problems, the RAF is getting ever smaller and EASA regs are putting more pressure on volunteer QSPs who now fly in the commercial sector.

I think most people who understand the Air Cadets- which sadly doesn't include the bevy of FTRS has-beens in the White House at Cranwell- also understand that this is yet another blow from which they will not recover. Cadet numbers will continue to fall as they realise that the ACO offers little more than a myriad of other organisation do. Volunteers will see how badly even the most committed amongst them will be treated and also vote with their feet. They will continue to see that their parent service continues to let them down as support dwindles, timelines slip, admin burdens increase along with pressure to provide a "light blue footprint" at one dog and pony show after another, which accomplish little but to further detract from the things the kids joined up to do.

BL - I agree, but not having seen the dictat, I was wondering if they were trying to muzzle other than "staff". I assume from your post that is not the case

facebook link
 

facebook link for those who haven't seen it.

https://www.facebook.com/UKACOGliding/?pnref=story

I have just placed a post in Rumour & News urging more people to sign the petition. I have done so, even though this thread here is covering the issue in great detail, because not everyone reads about military aviation and we need many more signatures on this petition.

Hi All, just a quick 'Thanks a bunch' for all the PMs - some interesting facts and some fascinating figures! I think 4Turbo has already made the point I was trying to though - if they got 34 years out of him then the investment was well and truly returned - in spades. And we all know there's many like him. Thanks once again.

Cat Funt - I did like your " wouldn't give the steam off their p*** " comment, notwithstanding Mary's disapproval. Had me guffawing - a fine example of minimalist thinking.
On your next post, like you it amazes me how much the RAF or MOD appears
happy to spend uselessly.

My lad gave up with with the Air Cadets as an avenue to fly this time last year. We had a talk and decided that staying in the air cadets would be a good idea solely for the purposes of a CV. But, if he really wanted to fly as a career, then joining the local gliding club concurrently would be a good move.

Consider this. He has been a member for exactly one year and has chalked up 60 flights. He is charged £3.50 per launch and all air time is free. Had he not done this, it will take him 30 years in the 'Air' Cadets to get to the same stage!

30 years experience for £210. 'No brainer' as they say!

There is no way that pressure can be applied to an individual to not voice their concerns via a petition. As long as you do not use your rank or in-Service status and sign it as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms then there is absolutely no issue at all. It is a basic right of every citizen (civilian or military) to be able to voice their opinion in the UK - it's just that those of us who wear HM's uniform must not overtly criticise the Govt whilst wearing said uniform or acting in a Service capacity. Whilst off duty, in the comfort of one's own home, the same individual is able to voice personal opinions as much as they like (like signing a petition).

Think about it, if you were not able to voice a personal political preference then you wouldn't be able to vote!

Facebook is subtly different as many persons put pictures of themsleves in Viggis/Vikings - then if you criticise then their is the faintest argument that you are bending the rules. But for a petition there is no such danger as long as no reference is made of your status (ie. Rank or connection to the Service)

CPL Clott

If you want a conspiracy theory, the 2016 decision was stitched together as early as 2012:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...0Study%20O.pdf

:*

Well its hit the Torygraph

Air cadet cuts will see more than half of squadrons axed - Telegraph

Generally a good piece but missed the key point that youngsters had the opportunity to fly 'solo' in a glider ... Which is more than just gaining 'flying experience' even if the proposed expansion of the Tutor AEF fleet is achievable ... It's more than just 'airframe' numbers ... Cadets won't be going 'solo' in a Tutor.

Telegraph Article
 

Romeo Bravo
This is a great opportunity to get the real facts out there by us writing (e-mail) to the Defence Correspondent and appraising him of what has really happened to the ATC,and exposing the lies that are now emanating from Sleasford / Suspecston and MOD.
As this is the Defence column and the TG it will get read by many more than a tabloid journo plug.
Just the simple facts will do;and if enough do it we will get far more exposure on the sublect.
Remember;what the nit wits hate is a PR black hole,and all we have to do is to state the FACTS.

Where does it exclude ex ATC Cadets from signing the petition? I've signed it and so pleased to have been ex 14F Sqdn. Changed me forever, defined my career, and sent me on my 1st solo in a Sedburgh.

To those in the know ...

There are many of us here on PPRuNe who aren't FBook 'Users/Members'. It would be good to know when the dedicated 'Save The VGS Campaign Website' will go live ... so we can help 'cascade' the message :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psdylpim4g.png

Thanks ...

Coff.

Daily Mail now - Young pilots grounded as Air Cadets halve their flying volunteer glider squadrons | Daily Mail Online

Zet, it doesn't say ex Air Cadets cant sign the petition, but it does say one has to be resident or citizen of the UK, which looking out the window a ten foot snow banks I don't think I fit that description! {God was only joking when he made Canada!}

Can't help but notice that the security caveat within the above document is "RESTRICTED - COMMERCIAL"... a brave post!

CF

Nothing brave at all. This is a redacted FOI version hence the web address of "whatdotheyknow.com".

From this FOI it still looks like it was almost a pre-decided conclusion back in 2012! :eek:

iRaven :ok: