I do believe that, nowadays, when people are fighting for their lives "fair play" is a bu!!sh1t concept that is only considered by those that have only ever sat in the comfort of their own homes whilst being protected by those who see "fair play" as an opportunity to win. YMMV...

I agree.

It has all the hallmarks of tying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Obama and his red line comment means he has to do something,
as so well explained in that article posted earlier and / or someone
said, we need to do something, let's drop a few bombs, what options
do we have !


air pig
"probably has never been down the road to Walter Reid to see the consequences of sending people to war."

+ 100 :D

Every member of Congress should go and every member of Parliament
in the UK should go to the UK Hospital.

AA

Agree.

That's why we keep losing, we tie a hand behind our backs
and use Marquess of Queensberry rules in a Muay Thai fight !

You mean like in Iraq?

Seriously - Your trust in politicians is breathtaking! :eek:

As dozens of other very reasoned Posts here have stated: What exactly is the strategy and goal of a military action?
Military action should never be just about: Don't stand there - just do something!?
It should be the result of careful evaluation of all alternatives and clearly fit into a well defined strategy and also include Backup and Exit strategies.
Everything else invariably leads to a big mess.
Where can I find those strategies for Syria again?

500 N: in the words of the Kevin Costner Untouchables film, 'you don't bring a knife to a gunfight'.

One must wonder why there a lot of Saudi air force aircraft in the UK at Coningsby, Brize and through Mildenhall reportedly doing Green Flag type exercises.

Eclectic : unconfirmed is the operative term, and as asserted by others could it be a 'false flag' Saddam and sons had a few doubles in the past.

I'd drag them down to the Queen Elizabeth and Hedley Court by the scruff of their necks to ask forgiveness for their follies in committing men and women to war on a lie, leading with Blair then Campbell.

Guess your breath will just have to be taken Henra.
Who's to say there isn't a plan - and an exit strategy.
I imagine the reason you can't find them is because they'e classified?
Will this sort of scenario have been wargamed to death at the Pentagon and elsewhere - I think so.
I think those making the decisions are well aware of what it may mean in cost of lives and (possibly) maimed servicemen.
Iraq looms large as an egregious, ****ty, cynical lie of a war - and I believe history will reveal that Bush went in there for no other reason than the fact that Saddam wanted to kill his daddy - not about oil or anything like that.
Blair followed because he is a card carrying narcissist.
So there - I don't have faith in all politicians.
This is different.
In this case quite happy to be called naive, armchair general or whatever.
Still believe it's the right thing to do.

Tartare:

Recent history is a good indicator...

As someone just said... Trusting the polis in this basically only costs the lives of good men and women. Time to send the polis and let the good people stay home... Then they will have a better appreciation for human life.

Up until 20-30 years ago most polis had served in WWII etc. and understand what it means. Now we have a bunch of useless wankers throwing bodies down range with no care in the world.

No matter what we do it will be the wrong thing for the region and will end up being the wrong thing for us, (UK and US)... Screw them, let them squabble amongst themselves and then deal firmly with the result.

AA - the only people getting worked up about this are the US, UK and Fr - all countries with centre / centre left administrations and a generally Liberal outlook on life, who are keen to send other people to war when their dinner table conversations get a bit too close for comfort and they need to feel as though they are doing something.

If Syria is such a problem, why are the Arab states not squaring up to Assad? Why are they not front and centre, after all, this is in their own back yard, not ours. They are the ones with the most to lose when this all goes horribly wrong. Or alternatively, just what do the Arab states know or understand that we seemingly don't?

And what the heck is YMMV!?

Melchett01:

Agreed... Why are we caring... I don't know a single one of these people and, frankly, I trust none of them. We need to stay out of their silly squabbles. There's a time to act and a time to sit back and watch people screw up... After missing three or four opportunities to do so maybe this is the time to be wise...

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary... :ok:

tartare.

I admire your trust in our leaders. They must wish there were more like you.

I've got no problem with us acting in Syria.

But before we do, I'd just like to know:

1. What do we hope to achieve by our action? And how might we effect this?
2. When we've done it, will we and the Syrians be better or worse off?
3. What are the chances that our intervention will make things worse or better, in the long term?
4. If we go in, how will we leave?

All, as I'm sure you appreciate, the 'nuts and bolts' of any military operation.

When I've seen these points outlined, I'll be able to decide if my representatives are acting prudently, or just making complete cnuts of us all, like they did the last couple of times that they waded in without a fukcing clue what the hell they were trying to do, what the consequences might be, and how the f%ck they were going to get out!

Once bitten, twice bitten......:rolleyes:

Your first paragraph is I feel is very true, in that they'd never wave their sons or daughters off to war, that's for the 'ordinary little people' who are not 'one of us' but in the world of the old saying is 'that they sleep soundly in their beds because rough men stand on the walls to protect them'

The second paragraph, every time they've gone to war against another country usually Israel, they have had their a**es handed to them in bag after a damn good kicking and being told to get back in their boxes, but very good at torturing and killing their own people when the opposition is week or non existent.

AA, AK - your viewpoints respected.
A question - has Obama visited Walter Reid?
One thing I would point out about the man.
I do respect the fact that he's made sure he is personally involved in approving every kill decision r/e drone strikes.
Although I wouldn't even remotely classify myself as a democrat... ;)

Here's another interesting twice

US ?backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria, blame it on Assad govt?: Report

500N

The reason we keep losing, is because there is no proper goal (strategy) set at the beginning.

There's really no other reason for our continual arse-kickings.

Before you start one of these 'wars', you need to know exactly what you are starting it for.

You need to know exactly what you wish to achieve, and why.

You need to know roughly how you hope to achieve it- and how long you're prepared to stick with the fight- ie, how badly you want to win.

Ask yourself these questions on the Vietnam war for example (or Iraq/ Afghanistan?)

If we do 'something' in Syria, let us at least decide what we hope to achieve, before trying to achieve it.

Tartare:

Yes, he met a Corpseman there...

"One thing I would point out about the man.
I do respect the fact that he's made sure he is personally involved in approving every kill decision r/e drone strikes."

I'm not so sure on that.

To me it says here is someone who can't delegate and wants to be talking
directly to the pilot of the bomber on it's way to XYZ.

And why have Sec of Def, CJCS etc if you can't set a set of parameters
and which they then follow ?

It's a bit like briefing him on say the OBL raid of the insertion options
and then asking him which one he wants. WTF would he know.
Tell him what options have been looked at and then which one you
chose and why then all he needs to do is give the go ahead.

if you were briefing a military commander, different kettle of fish
as he would likely be able to call on 20+ years of experience.

AtomKraft

Agree.

I am used to the military method of giving / taking orders.

Cameron resembles a pampered little dog yapping out of some rich old Auntie's handbag.