Threads closing suspiciously 2?
 

Rob
I am concerned by your statement below, were you in a bad mood this morning?

Rob. This site now has an intrinsic value. That is clear from the number of banner adverts that appear, and at around £2000 for 3 months per advert, there is a calculatable value to the site. This site has that value, and the interest of advertisers because it has 130000 users.

The users here spend their time also, sometimes writing lengthy submissions which are censored or erased without warning/comment when they do not appear to be transgressing the site rules. Your post displays a complete lack of customer care. You guys that started this know the site has a value and that is because of the client base, i.e we the users. Your post smacks of the fact that you dont give a s**t. May i suggest that if the site takes up so much of your time, and not only do you not get paid for it, but you yourself are paying for the privilage then the best business solution would be for you to stop.

This site has grown to be the best, most used aviation forum in the world. It is generally frequented by intelligent people who have helped (by their contributions) make PPRuNE the success that it is. If the subject matter was not as interesting and as varied as it is, the site would not be successful.

You guys came up with the original idea, which was great, but the success of the site i.e the attraction for commercial advertisers is the fact it has an audience of 130000 people (thats us the contributors) interested in aviation, a captive audience.

For you to suggest that people clear off if they dont like it smacks of a complete lack of understanding of the relationship between the site, the advertisers and the users. The users that have made your site the success that it is deserve more from you than the rantings of a grumpy old man at 7am. Discussions on Somalia, Iran/Israel, Iraq deserve a lot more server time than 'The finish the sentance off thread'!

If you're suffering from lack of server space, try asking your members, if you are not running a commercial venture, it is amazing who has what out there. I have a very big server, want some?

Guess this will be on for less than an hour before it is erased/locked.

Great sentiments Tigs2. "Sanitisation of Mil Forums" on the same subject started at 1056 today and so far still alive. Suggest we keep all comments on the one thread to maximise our opinions (matters not which) as I suspect asking Rob to combine the threads may be a bridge too far.:hmm:

Oops! Spoke too soon. "Sanitisation" thread closed. Why's that?

Tigs,

You've made a series of assumptions in the above post. They may well appear logical to you. They appeared logical to the guys in 2001 who claimed our database of addresses had a base value of several million.
We weren't interested then and we aren't interested now.

You guys aren't customers. Don't kid yourself. You are users.

We don't give a stuff regarding advertisers. No sales people - none. We got suckered into that sales thing a couple of years ago and ended up with the site being run to pay the sales people. I've very glad to say we fired them a year ago. Advertisers now come to us under our terms. No pay by the click. No forum targeting. No one on commission. We set a price - they pay it or the ad doesn't appear. Just in case you can't read between the lines we don't like ads - they are a pain in the arse. Get the site back down to 10,000 users and we can do without ads like we used to.

We do our own thing and as the Australians and Jetblasters have discovered we have no qualms simply shutting down a forum until folks get the point.

Military Aviation threads stay. Charity threads go. The political testiculation goes. We put our time and money into running a set of aviation forums for the past ten years. We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully. We run the site for our pleasure not yours. You want to play political strategist or polemicist go elsewhere.

That is our choice and not yours. Please understand this. We don't care, we simply don't care if you use the site or not. As I said at the outset your assumptions are wrong. This isn't a commercial site, we've never borrowed a penny to fund it. We have no need to 'stroke' customers and advertisers because both come to us.

And so to those assumptions again Tigs - by everything you understand regarding commercial reality and customer service this site should soon be a wasteland. However, a search on my posts will find a 6 year history of taking the cyberbaseball bat to forums. The tumbleweed has still not appeared despite such long term lack of respect by Danny and I. It is extremely annoying but it is our site, it is private and while we thoroughly enjoy the pissed off going on the blanket with protest posts and threads there is only one thing to remember - the house always wins.

Sum up: Charity threads get chopped, non service threads go, political science wankfests for apprentice leader writers go. It's a huge internet out there and loads of other places are desperate for non aviation stuff.

Regards again,
Rob

Okay then...
 

...Rob, if that is the attitude in PPRuNe Towers I'll walk. Please cancel registration.

Bye

Nice job Tigs 2 (where's my refund!!)

Well there is always this forum for RAF (and I believe they don't mind others) flying chat.

Feed the goat.;)

Rob.

Quality post. Love it!

Are you ex mil?
I bet you give a spectacular b@llocking.

I agree, it's their train set at the end of the day :D

Ouch! That's us told! It would have been nice to let us know in a polite manner beforehand, rather than rip the rug out without warning, but I guess you don't have to be polite if you don't give a toss.

Hey ho. Best take ourselves elsewhere...:{

Regular visitors will have noted that the mil forum often has as many or (on many occasions) more visitors than the top-level R&N forum - perhaps the "culling" should take place elsewhere! If indeed it is really necessary.

The hardline attitude obviously doesn't settle well with seasoned mil ppruners - perhaps it's time for another forum on the huge WWW, possibly incorporating a civvy section?

Osbo (civvy, BTW)

'PPrune Tower, continuing en-route good day...Air Force, roll e-goat go'

I may be missing something, but has the Jaguar finale thread gone????

Why?????

someone remove the ? from this keyboard please

Rob
Well you have certainly stepped off the fence.
I think i used the term users in my post. I commented on the lack of customer care concerning your comments about us 'Users'. If advertisers are such a pain in the a**e i am sure they will be delighted to know your feelings for the money they chip in every month, and if they are such a distraction do with them what you do with us and just close them down, don't have them, it all sounds like too much stress. I am not on the political bandwaggon, and neither are the others on the Mil forum who want to discuss Somalia, Iran etc etc. These subjects affect Mil Aviators, there are US Aircraft involved in Somalia as we speak.
I hope you are more 'User' focused when you fly your 737, or are they fee paying customers, does that make a difference? A bit like your 'Users' who pay to subscribe maybe? I suggest if you dont wish your 'Users' to be rude on these forums, you practise what you preach.

Sam, if you're talking about the 'Celebration of the Jaguar Retirement' thread, it was deleted by the thread's originator - a facility which is available to all users for any threads they may start.

While I've not been involved in any of the recent housekeeping issues in Mil Aircrew, regular users will be aware of the increasing incidence of 'Server too Busy' messages recently. This is a function of the increasing number of users - not necessarily registered ones - and the extra demands of the latest board software and some of the add-on tools that have been installed for your convenience. STB messages are not, despite the suspicions of some, an editorial tool!

Pprune runs on a couple of very flash - and expensive - servers, but even they are becoming overwhelmed by the load Pprune places on them. One way of reducing that load is to slim down the archives, much of which is of no particular value. I understand that there may well be some reductions to the number of forums, though it's unlikely that Mil Aircrew is at any risk!
There is the option of acquiring more or larger servers, but that costs serious dosh - and means that we would be chasing ever-greater user numbers and the advertising to pay for them. As none of us is without a life outside Pprune, that's not an attractive option. So the expansion of Pprune's user-base may well be at an end...

Rob may be a bit direct for the tastes of some of you, but you must realise and accept that you are here as the guests of Rob and Danny. Those of you who have purchased Personal Titles make a valuable and valued contribution to Pprune's running costs, but I'm afraid that does not imply any significant say into how the place is run - though, and this may surprise you, we do listen and take note of well-thought-through criticism whenever it appears on the site. Of course, those of you who pay nothing towards the running costs of the site can have no complaint when things are done here with which you disagree.

Scroggs

Scroggs
would it help alleviate some of the server issues if the site could only be perused by registered users, rather than currently, capacity being taken up by unregistered users. Some other web forums use this system.

...and suggest that those users are all indeed "military aircrew".

Well said guys. As someone who runs several sites, I am wholeheartedly in agreement that if you pay the bill, you get to decide what goes on there!

Sod e-goat, I'm staying here!

(and one day I'll open my wallet to pay for a personal title :ok: )

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Chris - kindly note the information at the head of this forum.

On the general subject of Pprune and the people who run it for their own pleasure/purpose, well if they want to take their ball home and tell users to bu&&er off elsewhere, so be it. Can't complain at that really, but...........:{

Scroggs,
Thanks for the balanced and very polite response to this thorny issue. I fully agree with you when you say trimming archives etc will free up server space but what we have seen lately is the unannounced closing of some of the liveliest threads that are voicing opinions that are completely in place within this aircrew forum.

I notice there are still 3 pages on the Mil Aircrew forum so maybe some of the old stuff should be removed/culled before the newer stuff which would help alleviate the suspicions that it's plain old censorship at work here........just my humble thoughts.

Rob,
What a truly amazing post. A fantastic insight into your regard for advertisers, your 'users' and the whole aviation community. (Which in case you hadn't realised, goes far, far beyond a few 'Professional pilots', who are never happier than whinging about their awful T & C's). Actually, for 'regard', please read 'stupendous contempt'.
I have saved this page as an example of exactly how a media owner should NOT treat their audience and, if you are unlucky, we will use it in our next issue, as an example of the contempt shown by some media owners towards their readers and advertisers.
For what it's worth, I will add that Pprune didn't have either the courtesy or decency to even acknowledge, let alone reply to my memo /application to assist with advertising sales (a subject I am MORE then familiar with) on a basis which wouldn't have left you open to anything. As it was, it sounds like your ego got the better of you and you got taken for a ride (you mug) .
Frankly mate, your attitude sucks. You wish to play god with threads, which is your perogative, but you have played the 'innocent' card once too often.
'We do not care what you think': Pretty much sums it up I'm afraid.
I DO care what my readers and advertisers think and that is what separates us.
Adios.
CS

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.



If only...................................

CS
nice one!

30 minutes and Cooouuunting!

(to be read in a really bad James Bondish movie Russian accent)

29 minutes and Cooouuunting!

Gobsmacked...
Just want to thank all the contributors to the Herc thread. Over 100,000 hits. At its peak when I was talking to journos, they already knew the story cos they had read it here first. An amazingly useful tool, carefully moderated by the likes of Scroggs. When I met AOC 2Gp, he had pages of the thread copied and he quoted me back from what I had written here. Rob, I suggest you sleep on it and see how you feel tomorrow.
Cheers,
Nige G

Rob,
For the sake of all concerned I hope your Ill considered response to our reasoned requests does not result in a loss of revenue to Prune. Somehow your attitude reminds me of Day and Wratten.........they thought they owned the train set as well, and whilst you may, the bad taste remains in the throat.
Scroggs,
Give the boy some lessons.
:*

18 minutes and coooounting :E

Oh thanks, It's nice to see the countdown to being banned so publicly highlighted :O

Sorry would of posted a bit earlier but I was busy reading all the ad's, I wonder if there is much money coming in from them:O

17 Minutes and cooouunting!
Now if PPRuNE still had the facility to do polls (that was really good that was!) we could have a poll on should CS stay:ok: :ok: :ok:
CS think you could get an overwhelming yes actually.
16 minu........................................


ABIW
There definitly is, but no one gives a s**t! maybe if they dont want it, they could give it to us, no me!

Tigs you always were a greedy barsteward, wot about 60/40?

[QUOTE=Tigs2;3061448]17 Minutes and cooouunting!
Now if PPRuNE still had the facility to do polls (that was really good that was!) we could have a poll on should CS stay:ok: :ok: :ok:
CS think you could get an overwhelming yes actually.
16 minu........................................
QUOTE]

Depends if you factor in that I gave Danny the correct home address for one N. Robertson, at which he was subsequently arrested (for those of you with long memories)

Short memory, please embelish your last post:E

Need to include CS mate so 30/30/30 and 10% to the 'global campaign for Free Speech':}
Amazing update. I just see i have now become a Probationary PPRuNEr dating back at least a year, cant be bothered to go back further. I Knew i shouldnt have mentioned Free Speech:oh: :oh:

Beg to differ, Scroggs me old! If Rob continues to display such breathtaking arrogance as seen here, I suspect there will be ALOT of Mil PPRuNers taking their online interests elsewhere - time for a dedicated "MilPRuNe" site anyone?

International politics is a subject that is inextricably intertwined with what we do in the Military, hence it will always end up being discussed here - something I'm geniunely surprised that Rob does not recognise.

I appreciate fully the issues you guys have with server capacity, and we ALL appreciate the unpaid time you guys put into running this site, but the rather childish "Let Them Eat Cake" rant from a senior moderator (who wouldn't hesitate to remove another member's post for displaying similar attitudes) doesn't serve anybody's purposes. Yes, it IS your train set - but taking it home in a huff so no-one else can play is not the kind of attitude one would expect from an 'aviation professional'.

Rob, as Nige has already said, I strongly suggest you sleep on it and consider carefully what you have said here.

Of course the laughable thing about this whole sorry debate is that this site is named after a fictional military pilot.
This being the case shouldn't the civvies be jumping through hoops to keep us service types happy?:rolleyes:

I fully support the view of the owners and providers of the website. I have also personally fallen foul of the moderator and had stuff deleted in toto without so much as a "how'syerfather" from time to time, but hey, it's not the end of the world, just a bend in the ego here and there.
The site was originally started as a bulletin board by DF as a hobby, about twelve years ago, using only his PC, IIRC. Each day, the "post" was sent to members as a collective email message, there were only about sixty or seventy of us when I first joined in 1995.
There were no thread groupings, it was all lumped in together. It grew like Topsy and things went from strength to strength, taking up a huge amount of Danny's time. Due to his other "day job" commitments, we didn't always get our daily fix of emails (Danny was down route).
Danny eventually came to us cap in hand and asked for voluntary contributions to go towards buying a proper server and software for a proper website front end; many of us did so (I couldn't read all the rapidly growing number of emails anyway) and I must have been fairly close to the front of the queue. Members were asked to become moderators around this time. I was asked twice to moderate one particular forum, but each time I have politely declined; I didn't want the responsibility. I fully support those that DO moderate; it's their show.
In those days Danny occasionally posted to ask us to review our threads to cut down on site clutter. As this was the way I was brought up, I still do delete my old threads on occasions when I think they have served their purpose for whatever reason, rather than letting them lie on the server as excess baggage. I have been taken to task on this a couple of times by members who joined later and were not aware of the history of the website, but that's just the way things are. I received a pm from someone who obviously saw a large number of replies to a thread as a personal "badge of honour" as he was horrified that I could delete my own thread with such a large number of replies. I come here to learn a little (and hopefully give a little where I can), to exchange ideas, to entertain and to enjoy.
Despite having paid a little cash, I'm only here at the leave and license of the owner of the site. If I overstep the mark, I expect to take the rap. If Danny or one of his moderators decides to pull the plug on something I begin, so be it, I'm playing fotball in their garden. If I break a window, I'm out. No questions, no backchat - Endex.
Those who haven't even paid to go through the gate and yet expect reserved space for their personal soapbox can expect no sympathy.
Do bear in mind that this is now certainly one of, if not THE the premier aviation website in the world. If an individual doesn't wish to be a part of it, it's a free world to set up an alternative website, so "Bye"!

I've not been following the threads you refer to, but it's been noticeable that this forum has rather too often been straying from its remit of Military Aviation. Discussions of non-aviation topics will generally not be appropriate here, however interesting they may be - even if they are of direct military relevance. Many topics in here are no such thing, and are thus prime targets for pruning (sorry!).

I'm not sure how much load the non-registered users cause to the system, but I think they rarely make up more than a third of the total. I'm pretty sure they can't use any of the stuff that loads the server severely - search and so on. In any case, if the place was only readable by registered users (and I'm not sure that's possible), we'd never get any new blood in.

Scroggs

Would that include the threads such as the Netjets and British Airways thread currently on the Military Forum?

Scroggs, it seems that you're joining your co-mod Rob and losing the plot.
I thought that that was what Rob was advocating.
.
As for your interpretation as to what is an acceptable mil aviation topic you might just as well put a warning at the top of the page saying that all topics are subject to "our" approval and censorship. This, of course, is your perogative and indeed is how the system works, but please don't try to justify why some subject matter is OK , other is not. It comes over as sanctomonious claptrap.
It's all a shame... it's been fun, but I guess you've just grown too big.:sad:

Cargo sales and the other err, commercially minded experts.

We've run the site in our way for over 10 years now. First time you lot on Mil have been publicly coshed but it's happened many times over the years as those who inhabit other parts of the site will confirm.

It is our choice what appears on any given part of the site. We will be condemed to hell for cocking it up but it is our choice.

This is insane, it is outrageous and it is arrogant. Obviously the site will collapse in on itself with such arrant, wilful behaviour. We don't moderate, we close and delete. We don't soften the blow with 'love you long time' notes. We simply wade in. Editors not moderators.

For the last few weeks we've had a little coterie of pundits who had their arses kicked over on Jetblast since last February playing games here. The once in a blue moon non mil political thread got turned into having 2 or 3 running at any one time. A few other potherbs who love the sound of their own keyboards think it's good sport as well.

Some of you, apparently with goldfish memories, think this is SOP. It ain't - the search engine and archive.org is your friend and you can check for yourselves. The constant charity appeals are binned, blocked or barred as are the non mil aviation threads. Especially the non mil diatribes.

Aviation website, mil aviation forum. Does what it say on the tin. Danny and I are a disrespectful, rude pair of tossers and because of that the site is a deserted wasteland. As of this week the 12th busiest bulletin board in the world. 49,000 unique users in a single day and we say bollocks to the experts and the professionals who have and still do tell us how a website should be run. We run the site with chewing gum and string from a series of hotel rooms around the world. No offices. No company cars. No suits. We don't play kissy kissy with the users and we don't have any truck with so called professionals in the industry.

So let's say it loud and proud. If you are doing a charity run fantastic but this is an aviation forum. If you want to discuss middle eastern power politics from a herring's point of view go elsewhere. If you fancy yourself as a political satirist regarding the governments warm and helpful interest in the armed services fill your boots.

Here's a final clue. Aeroplanes and the politics of aeroplanes good. We like that we do.

Rob

I've met Danny a couple of times and I wouldn't have described him in those terms! :} But perhaps, you know him better! :)

However, it's true that some fora have been closed over the years; Question Time and Agony Aunt to name two. We get over it and it's no big deal in the end.

Rob, most of us here are prepared to abide by any house rules but, like unruly schoolboys, we need to have those rules clarified otherwise we cannot learn.

Cheers

Whirls

Interesting to note that almost without exception, the complainers here haven't been willing to put their hand in their pockets....
:rolleyes: