Whole heartedly agree with the owner's right to run the forum as they see fit - to those that object - "get a life" - surely PPRuNe is not the major focus of your world - if it is then you are a very sad person!
GAGS
E86

ShyTorque
The fact that some people choose not to have a personal title does not make them a less valuable contributer to this site. Some of those that contribute the most thought provoking issues (and sometimes complain) do not have a personal title, but without their input the Mil forum wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable.

Surely it's more a matter of recognising the service that Pprune provides? A service for which I am more than happy to pay.

The Mil forum has been largely unmoderated for some time; all you have to do is get used to the regime that some of us, who DO frequent other fora on Pprune, got used to a long while back!

There is more to Pprune than just the Mil Forum!

Now, if Rotorheads was to disappear .....

Cheers

Whirls

Rob
While you gloat over the numbers and slap each other on the back, remember just how you got to that point. The user comment is a load of bs and is disrespectful to those who frequent the site. Minus us visiting, your stock goes down.

A little acknowledgment of that would be refreshing. Rather I imagine I'll be banned as its easier.

New blood is not the same as more blood! There is a constant turnover of Ppruners; only a hardy few are in it for the long haul. If the board was restricted to registered users only, there would be a net loss of users. Actually, that's an idea...!

I'm sure that even the less aware amongst you can see that limits must be placed on the coverage remit of each forum, otherwise they lose their focus - which is far more likely to lose us readership than by tightly controlling the subject matter. Yes, it's true that e-Goat, ARRSE and Rum Ration are better places to discuss the minutiae of non-aviation Service life, and that's as it should be. The forums of the BBC, Private Eye and others are the appropriate places to discuss general politics and world affairs. Pprune is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock. This isn't an all-things-to-all-people supermarket-stylee talk shop. It's a niche outlet, a specialist forum. Not so specialist, mind, that we pander to the aircrew-only extremists, but specialist enough to have become the forum of choice for serious - and not-so-serious - discussion of military aviation. However, to remain so we must control the noise to signal ratio, and this forum's has been getting out of hand. Inevitably, some will be dischuffed by the re-focussing exercise, and Rob's irrascible style will piss off a few - but it'll amuse more than it upsets!

Hey ho; another teacup tornado in Pprune-land. I'm off to spend all those millions I get from my share of the Pprune advertising bonanza.

Scroggs

Scroggs
Thanks for the reply; given the size of the current PRRuNe readership, I can live with the lack of PM to tell me my thread (US Airstrikes in Somalia) was closed - although I am still at a loss to understand why.
My particular beef with this individual closure is that this is a subject that directly affects mil aircrew - US, UK and French in the main. We (the RAF) have people deployed all over the CENTCOM AOR, which includes Iraq, Afghanistan and the Horn of Africa. We have deployed in the past, and continue to deploy a small number of personnel to the HOA. (A few years ago, the RAF were involved in air ops based in Kenya, for example). Ergo, the BBC news report that I posted a link to, is of direct relevance to many of us and of professional interest to many more.
I've been here about 5 years (this is my second PPruNe username) and my post rate could hardly be called prolific. However, I would like to think that occasionally I have something relevant and/or interesting to offer. If that's to be more limited because I haven't bought a personal title, so be it. I'm not going to throw my teddies out of the pram.
However, like it or not, PPRuNe Mil Aircrew has become a victim of its own success. Due to the state of affairs that has existed in the upper echelons of the Services for some time, combined with Government-directed swinging cuts and commitments that continue to extend us beyond our means, this forum has for many become the only way we can get our voices heard - even if only amongst our PPRuNe peer group. Discussions on subjects such as JPA are important to us - the system directly affects how we operate, whether deployed or at home. Aircrew or not, all of us in the RAF are in the business of generating air power and getting those aircraft to the target/on station/down route as applicable - hence various threads' applicability to this forum.
Just my 2p worth; I'm staying with PPRuNe but I was surprised at the 'we don't care what you think' attitude displayed in the other thread.
Cheers
SBG

Tigs, Let them get their hands in their pockets. If someone chooses to go onto a private playing field without paying, why should they complain the loudest if the owner decides he needs to mow the grass? Good footballers or not.

Scroggs

I've no issue over how you guys run the site. It's your ball and you'll let who you want play and no-one else.

But...
Surely JPA and housing amount to T&Cs for us military guys? Do the BA guys and such not discuss T&Cs on their forums?

Saddam's hanging may be "World Politics" on other forums, but some of the people on this site helped depose him and continue to help re-build his country.

I've been a member under under one moniker or other since about 2000 and PPruNe has changed a little but not beyond all recognition. These days there are more wannabes and more "non-aviators". Though I'm not anti-blunty, I do believe a way to regain aviation focus and also reduce load on the server would be to either close the forum to non-aviators (who are well served by E-Goat et al) or make it a private forum (such as the airline specific forums). It may not be popular, but as you and your colleagues have said, so what, and the ones that stay will restore and maintain the purity of the site.

Like sweary telly, if you don't like it, there's an off switch. If you don't like the way PPruNe is run, go elsewhwere. If you like it and believe it's important, think of constructive ways that we, the users, can help the site survive and improve. Not just have a bitch-fight over it (and yes, I'm aware that some comments from PPruNe Towers could be seen as inflammatory, but like I said it's their ball and they choose the rules).

Frankly, I think PPruNe's great and a valuable community for us aviators. long may it go on.

scroggs, Rob et al,
I don't mind rules, I don't mind principles, I don't mind that it's not my train set, so I'm not about to go off in the huff but how about some consistency then?
If these are the rules the mods want to apply, then fine, lock those threads, or as happens in other situations, move them to a more appropriate place - Jet Blast for Saddam and houses, T&C for JPA. And get rid of some of the noise like "Over familiarization". Like Whirls said about schoolboys, if you go to the effort of closing a thread, why not take a couple of extra seconds to post a message saying why. The hint will be taken, communication being a 2-way thing, and you will even get the last word :)

sw

Thats an amazing point to make to people that write on these forums. Did you go to the Gerald Ratner school of communication?

You really have lost touch with how the military mind works.
Do you think that by throwing your weight around you'll get what you want? You'll just get twice the reaction back, told where to go and people will walk.

I come to these forums because it is one of the few military forums where you can have intelligent and considered opinion that isn't dotted with racism, 'in my time' quotes and small minded ignorance, I also have a strong interest in Mil aviation having been involved with it during my forces career. Tis a shame that it seems to be lorded over by a moderator whose attitude to the posters replicates John Prescotts attitude to voters.

Cant believe I'm replying to this thread... but.... As an admin on another site, I just can't believe whats been said!

Yes, your train set, no problem with that. You make the rules, you do what you like. However Mil Aircrew has been left alone for years to run unmoderated, and its been successful. Its one of the consistently busiest forums on PPRuNe. You say its a niche - I'd argue that. Thats what you've made it. (Well, actually you've set it up and hosted it, the users have made it, but I'm trying to butter you up in this paragraph... :E )

Now you change the rules without notice, and get shirty at the regulars who are suddenly seeing their new / old threads being pulled for spurious reasons? Additionally, threads are being pulled inconsistently. There is some dross and non-aviation related threads on the forum thats still there - applying the reasons you've given, why haven't you pulled those? Or are you just pulling threads you dont like? After YEARS of consistency in posting and (non) moderation, all relevant, a little banter, you've gone from self moderation, no-notice ruthless moderation. I think the users have a right to question whats going on, and I dont know why you are so surprised they are! You dont need to answer it, but there is dissatisfaction with this sudden and no-notice change.

Had you given the users a week or twos warning that you were about to impose pruning and new rules on posting, you would have given users the opportunity to HELP you, and given a grace period to change posting styles, and explore other options. How much time does this take? A couple of minutes to inform the whole forum via a sticky post. Users would have told you what threads were pointless and could be pulled. You would have got them involved in the process.

You know, if you're that fed up with users, and forum admin, and stuff like that, you could just close the whole forum for 6 months.

Whatever - I'm not going anywhere, I dont post much anyway. Maybe I'm the sort of person you want rid of. :suspect:

Logging Out
 

Would the over-burdening of the server be aided by people logging out and staying logged out until they want to post or view a Personal Profile etc?

I know nothing about this kind of thing, but there always seem to be lots of people logged in all the time...

And I don't suppose "tabbed" browsers help, where you are always "looking" at a site, even though it's not shown on your screen at that time.

If it would help, it could be worth a sticky for a while...

Logging out now, just in case...

Too many users
 

Having been a member for some ten years or more, I think my original number was 2000+, I suggested about 3 years ago to "Admin" (who never answered) that it was easy at times of high useage to restrict access to members only, many sites actually do this quite successfully--no registration=no access.

Below are the current figures, 11/10/07 1135GMT
Currently Active Users
Showing threads 1 to 25 of 234 249 (67 members & 182
guests)

If only registered members were logged on I think that makes about a 60% reduction in server load.

Question Was PPRuNe Towers ever in the Service?, if not could explain a lack of understanding of the Service mind

No it hasn't. It just hasn't had a dedicated moderator. As for consistency in moderation, it's an unfortunate fact that all the mods (and there are 60+ on Pprune, though not so many that have mod powers in here) are human and not clones, so they will have different interpretations of the policies and rules we work under. Also, it's probably true that we've taken our eyes off this particular ball recently, and getting it back in line is therefore that bit more painful. The rules haven't changed, but their enforcement may have done.

As for JPA being a T&Cs issue, so it is. However, there is no Mil T&E forum here and it's highly unlikely there ever will be one - again, e-Goat etc are the best places for that kind of discussion. The fact that they exist make it a waste of time and effort to create Private Forums for the RAF, RN, Army, USAF, FAF etc, etc. The reason most airlines don'y have private forums here is because they have their own elsewhere. It's invidious to compare it to the civilian T&E forum, which is primarily about pay and jobs, not about admin support or housing issues.

The 'Airstrikes in Somalia' thread was typical of what Rob is trying to excise from this forum. While it may have been intended as a discussion about the tactics and practicalities of air power in that situation, by post 2 it had become a political discussion of US foreign policy - nothing whatsoever to do with aviation. The fact that some of you were involved in operations tro depose Saddam does not make his death an appropriate subject for discussion here - any more than the fact that I'm a Virgin pilot who would like a Ferrari (but can't afford one!) makes Ferraris an appropriate topic in the Virgin forum.


Scroggs

The vast majority of these 'guests' are likely to be crawler bots from search engines and spam generators, rather than individuals who are actively browsing the forums.

Scroggs

I can't honestly believe that you think JPA should not be discussed here. It had a direct effect on aviation. You had guys deployed in the sand not being paid and all the anguish with having serious domestic issues to deal with from thousand of miles away. Not many things affect your mind when you commit to aviation but that must have run some people very close. It affected guys on resettlement, and was a real concern for many weeks. I really think you have lost your way if you are banning such things now. It even made the press and Parliament. Or is that the real problem here?

No Nige, it has no direct effect on aviation. It may have an indirect effect by directly affecting aviators (among others) who are employed by HMG, but it is not an aviation topic. Nor was it being discussed from that angle; it was simply a group moan about the difficulties of using the system. E-Goat is the place for that - and more likely to reach those Admin wallahs who have responsibility for such trash. Getting mentions in the Press and Parliament does not motivate Pprune and its staff. If it floats the boats of others, they can fill their boots.

Scroggs

Unfortunately that seems to be the case and, as a result, just goes to reinforce the ultra-chav attitude of those in charge (funny that we haven't had any word from the great Danny).

DON'T BE AMUSED - BE BLOODY ANNOYED!

I post this in trepidation as I had an email exchange with Rob over this precise subject following banning after the use of a non-PC phrase on another forum. My reward for trying to conduct an intelligent argument was to be declared a "non person" - that is, my posts appeared on my computer but no-one else could see them. Rob's attitude managed to lose the site some valuable advertising. Fair enough. He doesn't want it. So he didn't get it. One of the UK flying mags got it instead.

Danny - I believe that you and Rob are making a huge mistake and this may be the first indication (along with all those on other forums) that your little empire of influence is about to collapse. You cannot treat your customers (or however you want to describe us) as pieces of trash. Some of us have paid actual money (personal titles etc) and, as such, there is an implicit contract of service. Your silence is deafening - do you support your partner's view?

I suspect that this is another "suicide note". :uhoh:

Danny, like most of us, works for a living. Many of the destinations he visits have little or no reliable internet access. He is also in the throes of moving house. I suspect he has better things to do just now than get involved in this little spat, which will not affect the turning of the Earth one iota.

Scroggs

Faintly amusing
 

surely this thread has nothing to do with military aviation and the axe should fall.

Scroggs, I didn't post on the JPA thread but I was appalled and amazed at how it came into being. Group whinge? I am not so sure. It really affected some people very badly. Surely those of you who run PPRUNE should take a little pride in what it has achieved?

Allan, I think you are being naive if you think the forum is about to crash. The only thing that will do that is DF pulling the plug. :rolleyes:
Get over it, guys.

Much of the comments above reflect the most significant difference between the world of Military Aviation and the airline world.

The military world is not just a 'report, fly, go home' world. Were military aviators ever to lose interest in discussing items such as morale, welfare and the like, which includes JPA and housing conditions, for example, that would be tanatamount to ignoring issues which directly reflect the welfare of those who support the primary focus for which military avaition exists.

Read most of the (non-spotter) comments in the non-military forums and most seem very much centred on the individual. "I'm not paid enough"..."I have to work too hard"..."How can I do this, that or the other?". Some who no longer use PPRuNe referred to it recently as a 'moaning copilot's club' - rather an unfair view, but that was their perception, I'm sorry to say.

Leadership, whether of a crew or a company, should consider team, task and individual needs. The balance may vary depending on the scope of the task, but none of those needs are irrelevant.

If the lad who didn't remove the bang seat pin failed to do so because he was so tired due to worrying about his cocked up pay and his kids living in a damp slum, then that most certainly IS of concern to EVERY military aviator.

Moderate as you need, but please respect the fact that the military has a much greater duty of care towards its peoples' welfare and how that affects their performance than does any airline. The military is a team - and there is no 'I' in team!

Scroggs, just to pick up ona) Individual moderators looking at individual forums should be consistent, that's what I was getting at. So, if you are going to shut down a thread on forum x because of its irrelevance, shut down similarly irrelevant threads on the same forum.

b) If the moderators have different interpretations of PPRuNE policies and rules, how can contributors be expected to abide by them? Is it justified to rant when someone asks a reasonable question about those policies and rules?

sw

Why has this come about with no warning, if not to upset the natives? When the natives get upset, why not at least try to give a convincing explanation consistent with the actions? There are better ways to get user buy-in than hacking them off off.

The forum is nothing without its users. I dont understand why you're seemingly going out of your way to alienate them?

PPRuNe will go on, of that I have no doubt. However it wont be the same, and wont be nearly as valuable or interesting a resource.

As shack says, If you have a traffic problem, only allow registered users to view the forums.

Well we all have better things to do if a thread that we contribute to, because we we see it as relevant to the lives of people in Military Aviation, is binned without warning or comment! What is the quality of this thread that it continues (so far) while others do not? I have posted to the Mull sticky, not because it is about helicopters of which I know little, but because it is a cause celebre of gross injustice by the Air Staff against two of their deceased pilots. Now please don't think that I want that thread unstuck, let alone locked off, Pprune is doing a very worthy thing by leaving it at the top of the forum for new members to discover (as it was with me). I just don't understand what the new house rules are, and as has been said before, we are all big boys and girls (well mostly) and are all capable of understanding what is or is not acceptable, provided we are told what is or is not acceptable. I suspect that Nige might have got close to what is really going down here, but if he is right say so and I, at least, will understand. At the moment I do not!
A perplexed Chug.

RAF JPA rollout, 185,000 hits. This is an important service to serving military bods. Where would all that steam have gone? PVR?
Current threads, promotions freeze for the Navy? Of real concern, why don't you just pull it now? Come on be consistent. RAFCARS, pull it! Ashamed to be part of it- Pull it, it does not comply with the new rules does it?

Are you therefore telling me that they do not take up bandwidth?:confused:

I've just discovered this 'storm in a tea-cup' after a long period on non-ppruning. Whilst I can appreciate the moderator's viewpoint (essentially - 'it's my train set') I think there are two points I'd like to make to add to the mix:
1. Things like JPA are relevant to mil aviation. Don't agree? Then why is there a complete flight safety video about a (jag, I think) pilot being distracted by domestic issues?
2. The moderators can be as strict as they choose (back to the train set thing), even be downright autocratic if needs be, but remember this: manners cost nothing, and as we're all (mostly) adults here, you should address people as you'd like to be addressed. You can be civil to anyone, even if you strongly disagree with their view. Some of the nastier posts here show a deplorable attitude that I feel if they had been delivered in person, would have resulted in someone leaving with a nose bleed!
Long may Pprune continue, even if I can't afford a personal title...

Well done Beags...you've nailed it again
.
Also the other well considered and apposite responses, congratulations. Given 21 years in the RAF, I would have thought you (Scroggs) may have understood a little better. It would seem that PPPrune Towers did not have the benefit of a military background and therefore can be easily dismissed for his lack of understanding.
So, given that statement, I'm "unsubscribing". I would like to take all my constituent parts of Danny's and Rob's train set, but I cannot get at the closed items. Bye.

It may have achieved all sorts of things, Nige, and I sincerely hope it has - but it should never really have been allowed to digress from the flight safety implications of admin frustrations in the RAF. It became, very quickly, nothing to do with flight safety; simply a moan about JPA itself, and questioning the parentage of those responsible. That really isn't Pprune territory.

BEags I'm delighted that you choose to remind us of the responsibilities of military leadership. I'm sure that, before you retired from the RAF, you exercised those responsibilities diligently and to the best of your considerable ability. However, Pprune has none of those responsibilities and has no obligation or remit to enable those reponsibilities to be exercised here. That some issues have been raised that have gained attention elsewhere is something of a bonus, but doesn't alter the fact that this is an aviation board, not a welfare one.

Shack outside my technical knowledge, but I don't think altering the access arrangements would prevent these bots from appearing as guests.

Why has all this happened now? Because the direction of this forum been an irritant to the owners for some time, and now they've chosen to do something about it - in their own style! The methods may not suit some, but the result will be focus regained in this forum. Personally, I feel that this forum should have its own Moderator (or team) to keep it on track, but that idea has been rejected by you chaps repeatedly in favour of 'self-moderation'. Apparently, in the eyes of the owners, that hasn't worked (and, to some extent, never existed). Maybe it's time to revisit that question.

Scroggs

I guess I would have considered buying a personal title if it wasn't so damn expensive! I'm not a heavy user. I'm sure most other users probably feel the same! £5 maximum, not £45 would be more appropriate surely, and probably bring in more money in the long run as more users sign up!

Are you trying to wind the site down? Has your hobby just got too much? Are you getting heat from external sources? Are you being attacked by bots or spammers? Your actions simply dont seem to be matching your words! Be honest with us here! I'll even say please!

Frankly I am amazed and embarrassed by the pettifogging attitude of most of the complainers. A certain arrogance is displayed by those who think PPrune is run by others exclusively for them and any subject they wish to bitch about. We should consider ourselves fortunate that a civilian aviation website chooses to allow a military forum to exist within it - not start moaning everytime we don't like the way they do things. If you want to go to e-goat or A**se then crack on because you will miss out on a lot of reasoned, informed debate that happens here on AVIATION issues. All you will get is the same dripping that sadly mars some of the threads that we have been allowed, despite them not being purely aviation.

Hmmmm,

And at what point was any JPA thread interefered with? Any welfare thread? Any housing thread? Allowances and tax? Mull? Herc and foam? Lean? Overstretch? WBF even?

Try to raise your game folks. You are bleating unconvincingly.

I've been crystal clear regarding what gets the chop. Pontificating post pubescent politicos who'd argue with their own toenails. The Google gob****es and the 'I could have been a policy wonksters'.' What happened once a week has turned into a plague in the last 6 or 7 weeks.

The moment someone starts querying non mil political topics getting the chop is the moment that the herd have started believing such threads are normal for this forum.

That is not the case and thus the big stick all done in public following the celebrated 3 calls system.

Tell 'em what you going to do and get their attention.
Tell 'em what your going to do and twist the knife.
Tell 'em what you told them now the dust and outrage is settling and more folks are switched to listen.

You'll find this repeated with the search engine in many of the forums over the years.

Mil forum is for the aviation arms of the services - discussion thereof.

If you want to rebut me for god's sake find something we have closed or deleted that actually directly affects service men, women and their families. Find an issue regarding your day to day lives we have blocked or binned.

The sun comes up tomorrow whether you visit or not. Life continues. PPRuNe thunders on regardless for it's 11th year and Danny and I will continue to mold, change and develop this amateurish disaster without ever listening to an 'expert' in hosting, moderating, sales or marketing.

Pip! Pip!
Rob

What a sad state of affairs this has led to...

So many threads here have no direct link to flying:
Campaign Medal for Bomber Command... no direct link
Chinook - Still hitting back 3... no direct link
Does any one remember my Dad?...no direct link
the rather pointless if Carlsberg made WRAF... do I need to go on?

but, they are what makes up the majority of the Mil pages of PPRUNE. There has often been a load of junk posted and you did have to wade through it to get to the interesting stuff, but this latest batch of "moderating" seems to be inconsistent... all the above and many more should be removed if we are to have posts with direct flying related content.

I don't post as much as I used to, but have been around on the site since before the Mil pages (since Jan 99) and I have even paid for my little title on the side... perhaps it is time to have a look at E.goat or whatever its called.

Tonks:confused:

Perhaps enough as now been written by all on this thread to draw it to a dignified conclusion?

I think the message has now been effectively communicated.

"Pontificating post pubescent politicos"..."Google gob****es"

Nice aliteration - and accurate!

A personal title is a one off payment and shows a certain commitment. Other sites, e.g. Friends Reunited, expect you to stump up every year, if you wish to be a full member.

The forum was started as a hobby, discussing aviation matters. It was never meant to be a commercial concern but DF had to ask for financial assistance to allow the site to continue because of the ever increasing cost of the bigger and better equipment required to allow sufficient bandwidth.

IMHO, Danny made a slight mistake back then because he should have made it mandatory to contribute financially. Somewhere along the line, a huge number of contributors decided to jump on board because they didn't have to pay anything for posting privileges.

My suggestion would be to require a small payment to post or to access certain areas of this site, which is quite normal these days for many other websites dealing with technical matters. That will sort out the bandwidth problem.

I'm a member of another engineering based website, based in USA, where the originator has no qualms about telling contributors to go away if he feels a post (even a genuine question) is not up to his standards. They get a very terse reminder to use the search engine and go away.

The severely piqued ones claiming to de-register are cutting off their own noses out of spite and won't be missed. I can almost guarantee that they will still be out there, unable to resist the temptation to take a sneaky look.

P.S. Beagle, now you're no longer an impoverished military pilot, it's time you got your hand in your pocket, too. Only about a quarter of a tankload of fuel for that musclecar of yours (that you so much enjoy telling us all about) would do it. :)

OK, prolly my fault for going off on that particular tangent!

Rob's quite right - the number of threads that have been moderated, compared to the noise made about them, is very small. Despite my own philosophical objections to the detailed discussion of non-aviation matters military, none of these have been removed.

Oi, spoilsport. I'm enjoying this!

I obviously have too much time on my hands today. But it gives me a break from matters of major moment happening not 10 metres from my left ear.

Scroggs

I wouldnt be surprised if the mil side of these forums is being wound down so that the rest can be sold to a commercial buyer. So the admins have decided that Rob should take on the persona of obnoxious git and take the flack, surely he's not like this usualy otherwise he'd probably sport a permenant shiner.

A real shame, this forum was a mine of information and was used by some of the most interesting people I have "met" online.

Hope the moderators have a wake up call and wind their necks in, doubt it will happen though.