Kipper fleet macho, chauvinist and tribal
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The Gorilla
That's a very sweeping statement - or is it sour grapes because the execs didn't agree with your opinion?
Flight safety has come a long way in the Royal Air Force, and those who pay 'lip service' to it tend not to last very long.
I served on many Sqns in a number of roles, and I can't think of a single instance where anybody paid 'lip service' to the subject, on the ground or in ther air.
Perhaps you would care to give us some examples, since clearly in your view this is widespread....
The RAF pays as much lip service to harassment as it does to Flight Safety, and I should know. I was that man who highlighted fatigue issues in Oman, and has paid dearly for it!!
Flight safety has come a long way in the Royal Air Force, and those who pay 'lip service' to it tend not to last very long.
I served on many Sqns in a number of roles, and I can't think of a single instance where anybody paid 'lip service' to the subject, on the ground or in ther air.
Perhaps you would care to give us some examples, since clearly in your view this is widespread....
moggie - absolutely badger all - as you well know. Air Training Corps, UAS, some sponsorship and loads of mates in uniform was/is it.
Did I ever pretend otherwise?
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WWW
Did I ever pretend otherwise?
Cheers
WWW
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I agree in large part with what FV has said. Even if this woman was sexually harrassed/discriminated against the fact that she had consensual sex with her (married) senior officer is in direct contravention of service law and as such goes to prove that she was probably no better than those she complained against.
I suspect that we are seeing six of one and half a dozen of the other and as such any legal case should really have been declared a draw.
I suspect that we are seeing six of one and half a dozen of the other and as such any legal case should really have been declared a draw.
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All this is effing madness! If the lady had (as reported in my broadsheet) consensual sex with her boss, her case should have been chucked out because she was clearly exploiting her sexuality to obtain career advantage. And her boss should have been chucked out of the mob for having sex with a subordinate. The Croydon Employment Tribunal are clearly a self-important bunch of w*nkers.
My information is second hand, from a kipper mate, so no doubt that makes it "hearsay" in legal terms, subject to dispute, and I personally cannot verify it.... However,...
I believe the lady in question was "allegedly" a pilot of dubious quality who should probably not have passed the Nimrod OCU. However, the senior officer who eventually fathered her child was on the OCU staff at the time, with their relationship still a secret,.....
She reached a Sqn where her lack of ability was noticed, she was effectively up for the chop when pregnancy interupted events. A move to another (dare I say less demanding job) was mooted when the "I don't want to leave my child" card was played.
Throughout her pilot training her ability to dish out foul mouth invective, and consume alcohol, was allegedly as good as any male. And no, she was not keeping up with the boys for the sake of appearances.
Whether she was sexually harassed or not I know not. I do know that I, as a red blooded male, could probably go to work tomorrow and start my own diary of events/conversations that could be used by a competent legal mind to provide "evidence" that I was being bullied, harassed etc, even though I am not. I would suggest that could apply equally to many offices up and down the country, and is not unique to the RAF, military, etc...
At the end of the day a pilot who may well have been asked to leave the RAF due to lack of ability (and there is a great deal of pressure on the training system to push people through as training risks and let the next agency "chop" them if they don't come good - the arguement that she must have been good enough to reach a Sqn is not valid) left in a manner coldly calculated to ensure a financial return on her time in the service - ALLEGEDLY!
I believe the lady in question was "allegedly" a pilot of dubious quality who should probably not have passed the Nimrod OCU. However, the senior officer who eventually fathered her child was on the OCU staff at the time, with their relationship still a secret,.....
She reached a Sqn where her lack of ability was noticed, she was effectively up for the chop when pregnancy interupted events. A move to another (dare I say less demanding job) was mooted when the "I don't want to leave my child" card was played.
Throughout her pilot training her ability to dish out foul mouth invective, and consume alcohol, was allegedly as good as any male. And no, she was not keeping up with the boys for the sake of appearances.
Whether she was sexually harassed or not I know not. I do know that I, as a red blooded male, could probably go to work tomorrow and start my own diary of events/conversations that could be used by a competent legal mind to provide "evidence" that I was being bullied, harassed etc, even though I am not. I would suggest that could apply equally to many offices up and down the country, and is not unique to the RAF, military, etc...
At the end of the day a pilot who may well have been asked to leave the RAF due to lack of ability (and there is a great deal of pressure on the training system to push people through as training risks and let the next agency "chop" them if they don't come good - the arguement that she must have been good enough to reach a Sqn is not valid) left in a manner coldly calculated to ensure a financial return on her time in the service - ALLEGEDLY!
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Nice post, Biggus.
Things are going the same way as civvy street. Got a mate who works in Forex and they have parallel cases – women who get a lower bonus than some of the guys because they have performed worse in what is, frankly, a highly competitive and macho environment. All of the toys come out of the pram and the court believes the ‘discrimination’ card almost every time. Everybody in the industry (including the claimant) knows its bollocks but the claim gets paid.
The world has gone mad and I’ve stopped opening doors for women.
Things are going the same way as civvy street. Got a mate who works in Forex and they have parallel cases – women who get a lower bonus than some of the guys because they have performed worse in what is, frankly, a highly competitive and macho environment. All of the toys come out of the pram and the court believes the ‘discrimination’ card almost every time. Everybody in the industry (including the claimant) knows its bollocks but the claim gets paid.
The world has gone mad and I’ve stopped opening doors for women.
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Kipper Fleet
If my memory is reliable, I seem to recall that when this whole 'human rights' badwaggon began to roll in Europe during the 1950s, the French government saw more clearly than our own that such legislation would cause serious difficulties if it applied to their Armed Forces. The French therefore specificaly excluded their Forces from the legislation. Am I right? (Any lawyers out there able to comment?)If I am right, then one wonders whether it might still be possible for our own wet politicians to renegotiate the human rights obigations, but this time exclude the Forces, the Police and so on? What a load of unecessary nonsence that would save us. John Purdey.
I'll second that, Biggus.
I was up at Ice Station Kilo a few months ago, chatting to some mates in the bar. They swore blind that she was useless on the Sqn, and this harrassment stuff is just background noise.
Shame on the MoD for allowing this kind of civilian cr@p to happen to us!
I was up at Ice Station Kilo a few months ago, chatting to some mates in the bar. They swore blind that she was useless on the Sqn, and this harrassment stuff is just background noise.
Shame on the MoD for allowing this kind of civilian cr@p to happen to us!
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Serious stuff this, both saddening and incredible at the same time. So let me get this right; is it true that all the experience of teaching people to fly professionally is being ignored in order to allow a candidate, who clearly can't, to pass though the system because she is a woman?
Didn't anyone, at any stage, stand up and say, "enough, you're chopped"? How can it be that she made it through to being in the right-hand seat, with all that implies to eventual transition to captaincy, if she was so incapable? Can it possibly be true that someone was overruled in order to allow her to progress?
I've no axe to grind here, I'm just saddened if it's true that political correctness has over ridden common sense, and the best pilot training system in the world!
Didn't anyone, at any stage, stand up and say, "enough, you're chopped"? How can it be that she made it through to being in the right-hand seat, with all that implies to eventual transition to captaincy, if she was so incapable? Can it possibly be true that someone was overruled in order to allow her to progress?
I've no axe to grind here, I'm just saddened if it's true that political correctness has over ridden common sense, and the best pilot training system in the world!
Samuel,
I think you are missing the fact that she was allegedly "involved" with a senior married officer on the OCU?
Perhaps he should be a subject of some close scrutiny here?
I know a lot of female aircrew in ABFC, this one sounds a real exception, and we all know they occur irrespective of gender.
I saw some pretty ropey male aircrew get through the system when no one around them could understand why.
I think you are missing the fact that she was allegedly "involved" with a senior married officer on the OCU?
Perhaps he should be a subject of some close scrutiny here?
I know a lot of female aircrew in ABFC, this one sounds a real exception, and we all know they occur irrespective of gender.
I saw some pretty ropey male aircrew get through the system when no one around them could understand why.
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No, I didn't miss the transitory relationship with a 'senior officer' , but doesn't that make it even worse? A senior GD putting illicit nooky before the safety of an aircraft and crew? That's a question by the way, not a statement!
I'm also aware that chops are not gender exclusive, the guy who was my best man was chopped after earning his wings, but the other posts weren't referring to that; just this particular female!
I'm also aware that chops are not gender exclusive, the guy who was my best man was chopped after earning his wings, but the other posts weren't referring to that; just this particular female!
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If, as some people are alleging, she had sex with a maried senior officer who was also one of her instructors, why didn't they charge his and/or her sorry arses under Section 69 as "Conduct Prejudicial" and fire them?
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It is worth remembering the Tribunal did not uphold the majority of this person's claims. Regardless of the complainant's veracity and personal motives, the real issue here is how seriously the RAF regards itself as a so-called 'equal opportunities' employer. The Tribunal, citing evidence (including documentary evidence) originating from senior officers, concluded, "We heard too many instances of senior officers with sexist views, which have no place in an organisation committed to equal opportunities and are quite frankly illegal."
What sort of message does that give to people with aspirations toward an RAF career?
Coupled with the Deepcut controversy, this paints a grim picture of the environment we're asking people to enter and parents to send their kids into.
Incidentally, WWW, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss some of the non-suicide theories regarding Deepcut. If a doctor can bump-off 250 patients, before being suspected of murder, is it not possible some nut case of an instructor could do the same with armed forces recruits?
What sort of message does that give to people with aspirations toward an RAF career?
Coupled with the Deepcut controversy, this paints a grim picture of the environment we're asking people to enter and parents to send their kids into.
Incidentally, WWW, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss some of the non-suicide theories regarding Deepcut. If a doctor can bump-off 250 patients, before being suspected of murder, is it not possible some nut case of an instructor could do the same with armed forces recruits?
Last edited by Scud-U-Like; 18th Aug 2003 at 03:52.
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Ali Barber,
Quite right. I believe MOD is appealing against the findings, and so they should. When the MOD staffs read this series of comments, as I believe they do and should, perhaps they will reflect on the strength of feeling about this whole sorry tale. John Purdey
Quite right. I believe MOD is appealing against the findings, and so they should. When the MOD staffs read this series of comments, as I believe they do and should, perhaps they will reflect on the strength of feeling about this whole sorry tale. John Purdey
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Now I'm not going to attempt to comment on the case in this thread or this issue in general in the RAF, but as a woman I would like to add my tuppence worth to this thread for better or worse.
I was out this evening with some friends and we were discussing this one and were absolutely furious. We all work in "traditionally" male environments agreed that we get slightly miffed to say the least with women who seem to level these accusations at men very easily. We all agreed that we have met women that have done this, and usually they do have a track record and are not exactly the best at what they do. By doing that they make it harder for those that do face a genuine instance of sexual discrimination and aren't believed. That must be absolute hell, and I hope that everyone here would agree with that.
However, they also make it difficult for us. I have been in jobs where the guys are very cautious in their behaviour towards me and are quite clearly very nervous about being accused of inappropriate behaviour. How lousy must that be for them. I remember a training video I had to watch once that said that touching a member of the opposite sex on the shoulder was inappropriate behaviour. As far as that is concerned, I think the world has gone mad.
If anyone has been out with a group of women, you will know that we can hold our own. It just smacks of double standards. We make a joke - fine. Bloke makes a joke - go run to your boss and complain. Aaaagh.
The day that a laugh and banter become redundant is the day I hold up the white flag and become a lady of leisure.
I was out this evening with some friends and we were discussing this one and were absolutely furious. We all work in "traditionally" male environments agreed that we get slightly miffed to say the least with women who seem to level these accusations at men very easily. We all agreed that we have met women that have done this, and usually they do have a track record and are not exactly the best at what they do. By doing that they make it harder for those that do face a genuine instance of sexual discrimination and aren't believed. That must be absolute hell, and I hope that everyone here would agree with that.
However, they also make it difficult for us. I have been in jobs where the guys are very cautious in their behaviour towards me and are quite clearly very nervous about being accused of inappropriate behaviour. How lousy must that be for them. I remember a training video I had to watch once that said that touching a member of the opposite sex on the shoulder was inappropriate behaviour. As far as that is concerned, I think the world has gone mad.
If anyone has been out with a group of women, you will know that we can hold our own. It just smacks of double standards. We make a joke - fine. Bloke makes a joke - go run to your boss and complain. Aaaagh.
The day that a laugh and banter become redundant is the day I hold up the white flag and become a lady of leisure.