View Poll Results: Would you encourage your child to join the military?
Yes
124
55.86%
No
90
40.54%
Unsure
8
3.60%
Voters: 222. This poll is closed
Would you encourage your child to join the military?
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I served in the services through the Falklands, saw the end of the Cold War and was invited to the last beach party in the Gulf.
What is this "good lifestyle" that gets mentioned. I didn't see it.
Obviously my face didn't fit! I PVR'd early, couldn't face waiting for the 22 yrs (No promotion prospects even with exemplary record)
I now run my own business, own a large house that sits in 15 acres in Surrey. (With no mortgage....guess how much that's worth!!!)
Wouldn't be doing that if I'd stayed in would I?
Not bad for a Corporal eh?
(I await the "P*** Off, you're not aircrew!)
What is this "good lifestyle" that gets mentioned. I didn't see it.
Obviously my face didn't fit! I PVR'd early, couldn't face waiting for the 22 yrs (No promotion prospects even with exemplary record)
I now run my own business, own a large house that sits in 15 acres in Surrey. (With no mortgage....guess how much that's worth!!!)
Wouldn't be doing that if I'd stayed in would I?
Not bad for a Corporal eh?
(I await the "P*** Off, you're not aircrew!)
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As a parent with an 18 year old currently just passed his aptitude for pilot and his AIB for the FAA and considering whether the AAC might be fun as well, I think I have some experience to offer. Especially since I spent 20 generally very happy years in the RN myself before leaving to find new challenges.
Am I happy my son is committed to starting a career in flying (or any other discipline, for that matter) with the military? Absolutely 100%. Do I think the services (whichever) aren't what they used to be? Gone to the dogs - but they were going to the dogs in my time, my parents' time, my grandparents' time...................
Whether my son ends up in the Navy or the Army (the RAF doesn't seem to appeal, for some reason - can't be me, surely) as a long term career seems to me entirely irrelevant at 18. What I do know is that he will work hard, have a whale of a time, learn a marketable skill and, most important of all, learn life lessons such as leadership and decision-making under pressure which will make him a very attractive proposition should he decide to leave later on and pursue a career outside the military.
I envy him his youth and his chance to enjoy all the things I enjoyed at his stage.
And as for those who whinge about workload and working hours, words fail me - don't think it's any easier outside. The separation may not be there but if you really think anybody is going to offer you a challenging job with real responsibility (and therefore a decent salary) without demanding blood in return, you have a sad awakening coming. Failures to meet the standards demanded in the Services may occasionally have serious consequences, of course, for the individual and for those he is responsibile for. But generally those failures are not life-threatening, are spotted early and dealt with by encouragement, closer supervision, retraining etc. They are not met with a sudden invitation to clear your desk and return the company car keys.
Am I happy my son is committed to starting a career in flying (or any other discipline, for that matter) with the military? Absolutely 100%. Do I think the services (whichever) aren't what they used to be? Gone to the dogs - but they were going to the dogs in my time, my parents' time, my grandparents' time...................
Whether my son ends up in the Navy or the Army (the RAF doesn't seem to appeal, for some reason - can't be me, surely) as a long term career seems to me entirely irrelevant at 18. What I do know is that he will work hard, have a whale of a time, learn a marketable skill and, most important of all, learn life lessons such as leadership and decision-making under pressure which will make him a very attractive proposition should he decide to leave later on and pursue a career outside the military.
I envy him his youth and his chance to enjoy all the things I enjoyed at his stage.
And as for those who whinge about workload and working hours, words fail me - don't think it's any easier outside. The separation may not be there but if you really think anybody is going to offer you a challenging job with real responsibility (and therefore a decent salary) without demanding blood in return, you have a sad awakening coming. Failures to meet the standards demanded in the Services may occasionally have serious consequences, of course, for the individual and for those he is responsibile for. But generally those failures are not life-threatening, are spotted early and dealt with by encouragement, closer supervision, retraining etc. They are not met with a sudden invitation to clear your desk and return the company car keys.
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To add a couple of subsequent points to my earlier mail to this thread.
“Serving my/your country” has been mentioned more than once by contributors. Whilst I am as loyal to Britain/U.S.A. (I am dual nationality) as the next person, I very much doubt that the majority of people joining the British services, join out of loyalty to their country. I’m not saying that Thud is an exception, but I would bet that he is in the minority. Indeed, in the late 50s when I joined the R.A.F., that was the last thing on my mind, or of most of my colleagues (I can honestly say that I never heard anyone say that they had joined because they wanted to serve their country – although in most cases that was probably taken as read). It was simply seen, rightly or wrongly, as an excellent career. Admittedly, for the whole of my service, there were no Gulfs and Iraqs to contend with. I’m prepared to be corrected, but I would bet that the vast majority of people joining the services today, don’t join to serve their country, despite the fact that they know that they may be called on to go into combat. They join to get training and a (relatively) stable job.
Secondly, four of us contributing to the thread, have all said, in effect, that we were held back by the service and only came into our own, when we left. And I have met many more individuals since I left the R.A.F., for whom the same is true, commissioned officers as well as O.R.s. I am simply saying that, yes, join the services for a short period, if that is what you really want to do, get your training, learn life skills, have fun – and then get out and use that training/experience in civilian life to really reach your potential, preferably while you are still young enough to make your mark. As an aside, I was one of 166 in an Aircraft Apprentice entry. After, twenty two years, I found out that only ONE individual had even reached the rank of Wing Commander (and he left in that rank). Not very encouraging, considering that we were all supposed to be “above average”.
“Serving my/your country” has been mentioned more than once by contributors. Whilst I am as loyal to Britain/U.S.A. (I am dual nationality) as the next person, I very much doubt that the majority of people joining the British services, join out of loyalty to their country. I’m not saying that Thud is an exception, but I would bet that he is in the minority. Indeed, in the late 50s when I joined the R.A.F., that was the last thing on my mind, or of most of my colleagues (I can honestly say that I never heard anyone say that they had joined because they wanted to serve their country – although in most cases that was probably taken as read). It was simply seen, rightly or wrongly, as an excellent career. Admittedly, for the whole of my service, there were no Gulfs and Iraqs to contend with. I’m prepared to be corrected, but I would bet that the vast majority of people joining the services today, don’t join to serve their country, despite the fact that they know that they may be called on to go into combat. They join to get training and a (relatively) stable job.
Secondly, four of us contributing to the thread, have all said, in effect, that we were held back by the service and only came into our own, when we left. And I have met many more individuals since I left the R.A.F., for whom the same is true, commissioned officers as well as O.R.s. I am simply saying that, yes, join the services for a short period, if that is what you really want to do, get your training, learn life skills, have fun – and then get out and use that training/experience in civilian life to really reach your potential, preferably while you are still young enough to make your mark. As an aside, I was one of 166 in an Aircraft Apprentice entry. After, twenty two years, I found out that only ONE individual had even reached the rank of Wing Commander (and he left in that rank). Not very encouraging, considering that we were all supposed to be “above average”.
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What I find interesting about this thread is that those who say, "Yes, go for it" are either RN or Army and those who say definitely "No" are, generally, RAF. Surely therein lies a tale?
Maybe their 'Airships' should be taking note.
[Yes, was in Army, would certainly encourage any youngster to-day into any of the three services as well
]
Maybe their 'Airships' should be taking note.
[Yes, was in Army, would certainly encourage any youngster to-day into any of the three services as well
]
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My son is a RAF pilot, a career he wanted from a very early age. Even if I had wanted to have discouraged him (which I didn't), I believe it would have made absolutely no difference, he had incredible determination. If a child can be discouraged from joining the Services, then the chances are that it wouldn't be the right career choice in the first place.
The end result is that my son is very happy with his life, even though like any other occupation you have to put up with the occasional BS from your bosses. The pressures of living away from home are just as bad in the 'outside world'.
Most careers are not as good as they used to be, this is not limited to just the military. However military aviation still rates as one of the most exciting jobs in the world. It also offers up incredible opportunities when you decide to leave.
The end result is that my son is very happy with his life, even though like any other occupation you have to put up with the occasional BS from your bosses. The pressures of living away from home are just as bad in the 'outside world'.
Most careers are not as good as they used to be, this is not limited to just the military. However military aviation still rates as one of the most exciting jobs in the world. It also offers up incredible opportunities when you decide to leave.
Thread Starter
Thud Ridge (and anyone else interested)
You have obviously decided, no doubt from the tone of my comments, what my feelings are on the subject - even though I haven't actually stated them as such. Anyway, for what it is worth here are my thoughts:
First of all you are right, I AM OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR FATHER! I joined the RAF many years ago, when there were 50,000 Russian Tanks in a country called East Germany facing 8,000 NATO tanks in a country called West Germany. There was a tangible threat and I had some quaint old fashioned notion that I was defending my country ("serving it" I believe you would say) and preserving our way of life. OH YES - AND I WANTED TO FLY fFAST AND NOISY AEROPLANES!! I did not join for the watch, the uniform or Wednesday afternoons off for sport. No doubt I may have been unusual at the time (my wife still thinks I am unusual!!!), and am now a cold war fossil!!!
Nevertheless, I considered life in the military a form of vocation, if only for the sacrifices it entails and commitment it requires. Look at the thread, on this very site "IOT (or Dartmouth to you) and relationships", that is only a few days old, for the discussion on the effects military life can have today on relationships, divorce rates in the military, etc... I am currently serving on a front line Sqn, and this is how it is at the moment (This is not a whinge, just a simple statement of the way it is). Most people do not get their full annual leave entitlement. We are undermanned in most trades, with no corresponding decrease in tasking. Our flight commanders main preoccupation seems to be making sure we have all passed our fitness test, and are CCS current, to the extent it has priority over flying. Getting time off for professional courses is very difficult, as for expeditions, those are what the SACs and non-aircrew go on - and good luck to them! That is how it is on my outfit at least, and it has been that way for years now! Does it get me down? Sometimes! Am I a whinger who should just have the balls to PVR - no, at least I don't think so! We have guys on the Sqn who could whinge for Britain, I am not one of them, and they piss me off as much anyone! Are there still days when it is a joy to fly? YES, you bet there are!! I am sure life is very different for you, you may still be in the Mon-Fri world of training, the RN no doubt are far more efficient in the way they do things than the RAF, etc, etc.... But there are 22 year olds on my Sqn living daily in the situation I described (in a very matter of fact way I hope) above, which I am sure is not unique in the military, and I am sure we have it easier than some/most.
To finally get round to answering my own question. Would I encourage a child of mine to join? NO!!! Would I go so far as to discourage them? NO!! If they are to make a success of life in the military they need enough commitment of their own that my encouragement or discouragement should not be necessary to sway their decision. I would however, TELL THEM WHAT IT IS LIKE BEHIND THE GLOSSY BROCHURES, give them some information (good and bad) so they know some of the things to expect. But then my children have a fairly good idea already, they know exactly how many birthdays, Christmas holidays, family holidays, weekends, school plays, sports days, etc that "daddy" has missed because he has been away/working!!
I started this thread not as a bash at the military, but to hear other peoples views. The RAF has been to me "the best of times, the worst of times....".
Nuff said
You have obviously decided, no doubt from the tone of my comments, what my feelings are on the subject - even though I haven't actually stated them as such. Anyway, for what it is worth here are my thoughts:
First of all you are right, I AM OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR FATHER! I joined the RAF many years ago, when there were 50,000 Russian Tanks in a country called East Germany facing 8,000 NATO tanks in a country called West Germany. There was a tangible threat and I had some quaint old fashioned notion that I was defending my country ("serving it" I believe you would say) and preserving our way of life. OH YES - AND I WANTED TO FLY fFAST AND NOISY AEROPLANES!! I did not join for the watch, the uniform or Wednesday afternoons off for sport. No doubt I may have been unusual at the time (my wife still thinks I am unusual!!!), and am now a cold war fossil!!!
Nevertheless, I considered life in the military a form of vocation, if only for the sacrifices it entails and commitment it requires. Look at the thread, on this very site "IOT (or Dartmouth to you) and relationships", that is only a few days old, for the discussion on the effects military life can have today on relationships, divorce rates in the military, etc... I am currently serving on a front line Sqn, and this is how it is at the moment (This is not a whinge, just a simple statement of the way it is). Most people do not get their full annual leave entitlement. We are undermanned in most trades, with no corresponding decrease in tasking. Our flight commanders main preoccupation seems to be making sure we have all passed our fitness test, and are CCS current, to the extent it has priority over flying. Getting time off for professional courses is very difficult, as for expeditions, those are what the SACs and non-aircrew go on - and good luck to them! That is how it is on my outfit at least, and it has been that way for years now! Does it get me down? Sometimes! Am I a whinger who should just have the balls to PVR - no, at least I don't think so! We have guys on the Sqn who could whinge for Britain, I am not one of them, and they piss me off as much anyone! Are there still days when it is a joy to fly? YES, you bet there are!! I am sure life is very different for you, you may still be in the Mon-Fri world of training, the RN no doubt are far more efficient in the way they do things than the RAF, etc, etc.... But there are 22 year olds on my Sqn living daily in the situation I described (in a very matter of fact way I hope) above, which I am sure is not unique in the military, and I am sure we have it easier than some/most.
To finally get round to answering my own question. Would I encourage a child of mine to join? NO!!! Would I go so far as to discourage them? NO!! If they are to make a success of life in the military they need enough commitment of their own that my encouragement or discouragement should not be necessary to sway their decision. I would however, TELL THEM WHAT IT IS LIKE BEHIND THE GLOSSY BROCHURES, give them some information (good and bad) so they know some of the things to expect. But then my children have a fairly good idea already, they know exactly how many birthdays, Christmas holidays, family holidays, weekends, school plays, sports days, etc that "daddy" has missed because he has been away/working!!
I started this thread not as a bash at the military, but to hear other peoples views. The RAF has been to me "the best of times, the worst of times....".
Nuff said
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Sorry Biggus, I must take issue with the 50,000 Warsaw Pack against the 8000 NATO Tanks. I served as a Troop Commander in FRG and can assure you that NATO would have been lucky to field half that amount on a very very good day….
Anyway the THREAT propaganda aside, neither of my children have ever expressed an interest in any of the services. Had they expressed any interest I would have actively encouraged them. All posters have correctly identified that the services we joined are very much different from those of today. I mean my own cavalry Regiment was amalgamated in 1969 (before my time) and again in 1994 (after my time) during Options for Change. Nevertheless, the core principles of self-discipline, teamwork and the development of the individual all remain. Promotions and advancement may be a little harder than they were but other standards – as in accommodation, food and equipment – have increased if only marginally.
I do not for one moment regret my time in the Services and if I have the opportunity would almost certainly do it all over again. However, I do agree with many posters that “if your face fits” and “a little brown nosing” (a skill I failed to acquire) always do some good…..even if it only boosts the ego of the recipient
Anyway the THREAT propaganda aside, neither of my children have ever expressed an interest in any of the services. Had they expressed any interest I would have actively encouraged them. All posters have correctly identified that the services we joined are very much different from those of today. I mean my own cavalry Regiment was amalgamated in 1969 (before my time) and again in 1994 (after my time) during Options for Change. Nevertheless, the core principles of self-discipline, teamwork and the development of the individual all remain. Promotions and advancement may be a little harder than they were but other standards – as in accommodation, food and equipment – have increased if only marginally.
I do not for one moment regret my time in the Services and if I have the opportunity would almost certainly do it all over again. However, I do agree with many posters that “if your face fits” and “a little brown nosing” (a skill I failed to acquire) always do some good…..even if it only boosts the ego of the recipient
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Some great answers here but a lot depends on your slant. 
I think until you have been taken from your primary role, what ever that might be, to guard the gate when it's pi@@ing down or over Xmas etc, or have to do another pointless Orderly airmen or many of the other pi@@ duties that most airmen do in there time, which most of the posters here have never ever done!! it's a bit rich to pontificate on the short comings of others.
I am a loadie with almost 30 years under my belt. Half of that was as a techie and now,for ME as I can't do any better, I have the best job in the mob.
But unless my lad or lass could achieve "a window seat" I would sonner they became binmen or plumbers,not TG1 I hasten to add
than join her majesties "not so finest".
I have had, and still do, some great times but there is a whole plethora of things we lack from leadership to equipment and for the short space of time my young ones are here I think they can do much better elsewhere and would advise them accordingly.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I think until you have been taken from your primary role, what ever that might be, to guard the gate when it's pi@@ing down or over Xmas etc, or have to do another pointless Orderly airmen or many of the other pi@@ duties that most airmen do in there time, which most of the posters here have never ever done!! it's a bit rich to pontificate on the short comings of others.
I am a loadie with almost 30 years under my belt. Half of that was as a techie and now,for ME as I can't do any better, I have the best job in the mob.
But unless my lad or lass could achieve "a window seat" I would sonner they became binmen or plumbers,not TG1 I hasten to add
than join her majesties "not so finest".I have had, and still do, some great times but there is a whole plethora of things we lack from leadership to equipment and for the short space of time my young ones are here I think they can do much better elsewhere and would advise them accordingly.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 1st Mar 2003 at 07:04.
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Yes and no.
Over thirty years of strapping into aircraft and still enjoying it. Had enough experience of exercises, deployments, TACEVAL, MINEVALs etc before marrying and raising a family so knew what to expect.
Good fun and good friends, lots of travel, reasonable pay, reasonable security of job etc.
Still get totally hacked off with lackof kit, poor leadership, lack of recognition, lots of deployments etc but still doing the job that I'm paid to do, or is that an old fashioned idea?
Life is what you make of it.
i.e. balanced advice not just "I got hacked off with it" or "I had a good time". I probably wouldn't advise on a long contract but that seems to be the modern way with two or three career changes for this generation.
Over thirty years of strapping into aircraft and still enjoying it. Had enough experience of exercises, deployments, TACEVAL, MINEVALs etc before marrying and raising a family so knew what to expect.
Good fun and good friends, lots of travel, reasonable pay, reasonable security of job etc.
Still get totally hacked off with lackof kit, poor leadership, lack of recognition, lots of deployments etc but still doing the job that I'm paid to do, or is that an old fashioned idea?
Life is what you make of it.
i.e. balanced advice not just "I got hacked off with it" or "I had a good time". I probably wouldn't advise on a long contract but that seems to be the modern way with two or three career changes for this generation.
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BC1,
TG1, or trade group 1 always used to in clude weapons technicians, believe it still does, who were more commonly referred to as plumbers
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
TG1, or trade group 1 always used to in clude weapons technicians, believe it still does, who were more commonly referred to as plumbers
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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A late input I'm afraid.
I'd agree with those who'd neither encourage or discourage. Mine followed me around for twenty years or so; one had a brief taste of it, left early, and now regrets it. Theirs, like mine, was a personal choice, and there were many pointers to enable them to decide.
I don't subscribe to the Beagle view that 'it's not like wot it was in my time' (apologies if I've misinterpreted). I well remember in my early JP years, sitting on barstools in messes various, being bored witless having to listen to the wrinklies drone on about their 'good times'. I then became a wrinkly and probably dished out my own equally boring versions of the good times! Life goes on - and from Trenchard's times to those of today's RAF, a lot has changed (obviously), but I also suspect that some things - both good and bad - haven't. And it's a probability that those 'some things' represent the real core of the RAF.
After 27 years in the FJ environment, I left - simply to have a bash at something else before I expired - and saw many other sides of life in UK and overseas business, and in other air forces. I can assure all those who talk of brown-nosing, secondary duties, suffering youthful pain-in-the-bum bosses etc etc, that life outside offers a basketful of the same. And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade.
For me, I'd do it all again - changes and all. That would be my only 'encouragement'.
I'd agree with those who'd neither encourage or discourage. Mine followed me around for twenty years or so; one had a brief taste of it, left early, and now regrets it. Theirs, like mine, was a personal choice, and there were many pointers to enable them to decide.
I don't subscribe to the Beagle view that 'it's not like wot it was in my time' (apologies if I've misinterpreted). I well remember in my early JP years, sitting on barstools in messes various, being bored witless having to listen to the wrinklies drone on about their 'good times'. I then became a wrinkly and probably dished out my own equally boring versions of the good times! Life goes on - and from Trenchard's times to those of today's RAF, a lot has changed (obviously), but I also suspect that some things - both good and bad - haven't. And it's a probability that those 'some things' represent the real core of the RAF.
After 27 years in the FJ environment, I left - simply to have a bash at something else before I expired - and saw many other sides of life in UK and overseas business, and in other air forces. I can assure all those who talk of brown-nosing, secondary duties, suffering youthful pain-in-the-bum bosses etc etc, that life outside offers a basketful of the same. And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade.
For me, I'd do it all again - changes and all. That would be my only 'encouragement'.
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Smartman,
Whilst I have no wish to argue the pros and cons with you, I am aware of one ex-R.A.F. Corporal, who attempted on numerous occasions, to gain a flying commission in the RAF and who failed out of hand (for reasons unknown to him).
He is now a senior captain with one of the largest U.S. carriers (about to retire, in fact).
Where does that place your quote "And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade".
Whilst I have no wish to argue the pros and cons with you, I am aware of one ex-R.A.F. Corporal, who attempted on numerous occasions, to gain a flying commission in the RAF and who failed out of hand (for reasons unknown to him).
He is now a senior captain with one of the largest U.S. carriers (about to retire, in fact).
Where does that place your quote "And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade".
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Luke
Well done to him!!
My point still applies - he didn't make the grade (for whatever reason), for which I'm sorry. He clearly should take pride if he beats his chest about it. I wasn't trying to imply anything sinister in my remarks, simply suggesting that there will be those who could cut the mustard but unfortunately weren't recognised - and those who couldn't cut it; all for whatever reason. But, as in all walks of life, there'll be those few who didn't hack the grade through personal failure, make it elsewhere, and then beat their chests in order to throw scorn on their first employer.
Enough! Let's have another beer ----------------
Well done to him!!
My point still applies - he didn't make the grade (for whatever reason), for which I'm sorry. He clearly should take pride if he beats his chest about it. I wasn't trying to imply anything sinister in my remarks, simply suggesting that there will be those who could cut the mustard but unfortunately weren't recognised - and those who couldn't cut it; all for whatever reason. But, as in all walks of life, there'll be those few who didn't hack the grade through personal failure, make it elsewhere, and then beat their chests in order to throw scorn on their first employer.
Enough! Let's have another beer ----------------
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I do understand where you are coming from Smartman. However my point was that, yes, there are those who genuinely wouldn't make it in any walk of life (steady on there, Luke!). But there are still some of us, who for political, or other reasons, not to do with our ability or aptitude, were discounted by the Services and still made it (whatever that means) in civvy street.
Mine's double brandy - five star, please!
Mine's double brandy - five star, please!
What I meant was that I would indeed join the mob I joined all those years ago. But in its current form it does not offer the same appeal to me now as it did then; were I to have the same chance today, personally I'd probably embark upon a different career. As it is I've got 158 days left until my exit date; sorry, but a ground tour simply doesn't have sufficient appeal to retain me at this late stage.
Good luck to all those who do join, however; TypHoon is amazing as will be F35. Most of the 'heavies' are due to be replaced within a decade - as are most rotaries. Enjoy.....
Good luck to all those who do join, however; TypHoon is amazing as will be F35. Most of the 'heavies' are due to be replaced within a decade - as are most rotaries. Enjoy.....
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Thud
I like your attitude and I wish you every success in the second best flying institution. But why don't you transfer to its superior - the RAF looks like it could do with a dash of your kind of spirit right now.
I like your attitude and I wish you every success in the second best flying institution. But why don't you transfer to its superior - the RAF looks like it could do with a dash of your kind of spirit right now.