Red Arrows Replacement............
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
Likes: 368
From: Wildest Surrey
No good for aerobatics or cross country stuff but at least it would get more cadets airborne especially if the RAF re-opened some of their closed airfields; it's ridiculous having only one air cadet gliding site in the whole of the south east of England with Odiham, Abingdon, Halton, Bovingdon, Hendon, Henlow, Wethersfield, Manston, even Tangmere and West Malling all gone.
Even the airfield where I operated most recently, Fairoaks, has a history of gliding with No 167 GS being formed there in 1944 and disbanded in 1948 having used Cadet TX1s.
Last edited by chevvron; 2nd May 2025 at 18:35.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,466
Likes: 188
From: 11 GROUP
Best way to be used to being alone in the cockpit is in a single seater, worked ok for the Luftwaffe, none of this namby pamby dual nonsense, the instructor can light the fuse, wish them good luck and then hold the wing level : very economical on staff levels which is just as well as there are very few left. Of course to make it even more economical, teams of Cadets could build the machines from kits on parade nights. As the attrition rate will be a challenge we will have to up the recruitment program, but at least it will get them out in the fresh air away from using mobile phones and computer screens.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 543
From: Lost again...
My vote for the Red Arrows replacement:
I'd like a Royal Air Force flying training programme that can turn out suitably trained pilots in a relevant time-scale using appropriate aircraft that are reliable, safe to fly and available in sufficient numbers please!
I'd like a Royal Air Force flying training programme that can turn out suitably trained pilots in a relevant time-scale using appropriate aircraft that are reliable, safe to fly and available in sufficient numbers please!
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
Likes: 368
From: Wildest Surrey
They operated Robinson R22s which they treated as 'disposable'. Inside their hangar was a stack of packing cases, each of which contained an R22 ready assembled so that if one of their aircraft got 'broken', they would simply get a fresh one out of a packing case and use it; what they did with the 'old' ones I don't know..
Guest
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 427
Likes: 83
From: Bed
They should try www.stavatti.com
not sure if it’s a joke outfit but definitely odd and bidding for the T45 USN replacement
not sure if it’s a joke outfit but definitely odd and bidding for the T45 USN replacement
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 804
Likes: 96
From: UK
They should try www.stavatti.com
not sure if it’s a joke outfit but definitely odd and bidding for the T45 USN replacement
not sure if it’s a joke outfit but definitely odd and bidding for the T45 USN replacement
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 365
Likes: 98
From: Norfolk
How about not replacing them? Use the money on the front line instead. I doubt very much that the ‘good for recruiting’ and ‘promotes British industry’ excuses/reasons hold true any more. I’m certain that if a straw poll of currently-serving personnel was held, hardly any would say they joined because of watching the Red Arrows at an airshow. As for British industry, buying something non-British kind of blows that out of the water.
Last edited by snapper41; 7th May 2025 at 10:22.
Joined: Oct 2018
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,249
Likes: 1,658
From: Ferrara
They are useful in keeping up the (false) impression that we still have a significant airforce to Joe Public.
The fact we'd be hard pressed to get 9 F-35's over London this week is covered up by using 9 elderly, but beautifully flown, Hawks
The fact we'd be hard pressed to get 9 F-35's over London this week is covered up by using 9 elderly, but beautifully flown, Hawks
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 2,692
Likes: 1,532
From: Near the coast
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 129
From: Here
How about not replacing them? Use the money on the front line instead. I doubt very much that the ‘good for recruiting’ and ‘promotes British industry’ excuses/reasons hold true any more. I’m certain that if a straw poll of currently-serving personnel was held, hardly any would say they joined because of watching the Red Arrows at an airshow. As for British industry, buying something non-British kind of blows that out of the water.
Having said that, I think their goose was cooked when the decision was made to continue with the T1 and not order any T2 Hawks as replacement. It will just take a brave politician to actually scrap them.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
Likes: 368
From: Wildest Surrey
Joined: Oct 2018
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,249
Likes: 1,658
From: Ferrara
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 365
Likes: 98
From: Norfolk
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 160
From: Next to Ross and Demelza
Haters can hate as much as they like, but the Red Arrows are the RAF's only real PR tool nowadays, particularly with the demise of military SAR. How many British residents even see a military aircraft these days? How many people realise the BBMF is an RAF unit? Apart from the flypast over London how many people even know we have an air force?
And if you take the Red Arrows our of the picture then those figures will get even smaller.
And if you take the Red Arrows our of the picture then those figures will get even smaller.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 543
From: Lost again...
Haters can hate as much as they like, but the Red Arrows are the RAF's only real PR tool nowadays, particularly with the demise of military SAR. How many British residents even see a military aircraft these days? How many people realise the BBMF is an RAF unit? Apart from the flypast over London how many people even know we have an air force?
And if you take the Red Arrows our of the picture then those figures will get even smaller.
And if you take the Red Arrows our of the picture then those figures will get even smaller.
A CAS that says to the politicians - Never mind your PR I can't afford to spend that much of my budget on vintage aeroplanes and people who should be preparing for the war you're about to get us into would get my vote.
I'm not a hater - much to the contrary, several of my most cherished memories are of "the reds". But get real. Ten(plus) pilots, dozens of support personnel and millions of pounds when our flying training system is utterly screwed. Really!?!?!
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 543
From: Lost again...
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 365
From: uk
I suspect another subtlety at play is that, according to MoD rules, the associated risks are being borne personally by the Secretary of State. Whether they actually are or not hasn't been revealed. This is directly linked to assurances given to the North Wales Coroner that the Hawk T.1 would be modified to make it ALARP. Now that it's within 5 years of the OSD, many will be trying to break that promise, in particular the Treasury.
The squadron seems to be recovering from its much publicised woes, and I'd hate to see them go. But the numbers won't look good to beancounters, now that RAFAT are bearing the vast majority of the cost of keeping the T.1/1A in service. (And we already know much of the basic work isn't being done). They were easier to justify when part of a much larger fleet. And while I wouldn't claim to know much about such things, my guess is the decision to move them out of 22 (Trg) Group a few years ago left 1 Group with a major headache on priorities. Officially/logically it's the front line fleets, but unofficially there's huge pressure for RAFAT to fly. Perhaps time for them to be wholly funded by public donation. After all, albeit on a smaller scale, this is the only reason a certain Army unit can fulfill one of its primary roles. Perhaps Little Donny can step in, in exchange for the Open at Turnberry.
