Red Arrows Replacement............
Joined: May 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 316
Likes: 254
From: uk
the RAF fiddles while Rome burns !
NATO in disarray , the markets in chaos, the Ukraine War blasts on ,Israel / Palestine still at loggerheads and the old order being torn apart by the madman Trump - and the big worry for the ever diminishing RAF is the Red Arrows !
cool in a crisis or just ‘ plane ‘stupid ?
To stir up a discussion - I would replace them ,when the Hawks are eventually worn out, with a re-invented Blades team. Much cheaper, stays much closer to the crowd and just as impressive! ( with ex Arrows pilots ) but
probably not enough noise for our image conscious leaders !
if it has to be a jet why not the part British made Typhoon - could not a dozen Typhoons be spared the axe and extended for a few years ??
it would be a VERY impressive ,world beating team and could maybe even be used in a crisis with a few missiles bolted on !
NATO in disarray , the markets in chaos, the Ukraine War blasts on ,Israel / Palestine still at loggerheads and the old order being torn apart by the madman Trump - and the big worry for the ever diminishing RAF is the Red Arrows !
cool in a crisis or just ‘ plane ‘stupid ?
To stir up a discussion - I would replace them ,when the Hawks are eventually worn out, with a re-invented Blades team. Much cheaper, stays much closer to the crowd and just as impressive! ( with ex Arrows pilots ) but
probably not enough noise for our image conscious leaders !
if it has to be a jet why not the part British made Typhoon - could not a dozen Typhoons be spared the axe and extended for a few years ??
it would be a VERY impressive ,world beating team and could maybe even be used in a crisis with a few missiles bolted on !
Last edited by mahogany bob; 8th April 2025 at 05:51.
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 36,143
Likes: 5,739
From: Falling off the end of the thread
I agree, the T7 fits best, appropriate name actually: Red Hawk. In all likelihood it could be selected by the RAF as its advanced trainer without even considering the Reds.
For now the Red Arrows will probably soldier on with the Hawks. The obvious example of being the Snowbirds.
For now the Red Arrows will probably soldier on with the Hawks. The obvious example of being the Snowbirds.
Joined: Aug 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 1,829
Likes: 165
From: se england
If it was left to the Sun they would have Spitfires , which would till be world beating. But these are difficult times and one does have to ask if the Reds are really affordable now that we have become a second level country in most things . The French are still using Alpha jets aren't they -similar vintage to the Hawk. If they could be integrated with the training demands maybe cutting down the number of events might that financially??
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 409
Likes: 49
From: The 24th & a Half Century
Starkey, Tim Davies (a shareholder), Aeralis and their paymasters Barzan in that terrorist supporting #### hole of Qatar. It all sounds a bit desperate for something that doesn’t even exist! Two-years? Really 🤔 lead time on a F124 motor before Leonardo just order c70 yeah, blows that out the window 😂😂
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 453
Likes: 467
From: Jupiter
Find it hard to imagine that anyone asking ‘if they are affordable’ is genuine.
Britain is still a huge military power. Not in sheer numbers but in skill and capability. Of course a display team is affordable. It’s literally peanuts compared to service pensions, for example.
So much negativity here!
Britain is still a huge military power. Not in sheer numbers but in skill and capability. Of course a display team is affordable. It’s literally peanuts compared to service pensions, for example.
So much negativity here!
Joined: Dec 2015
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 875
Likes: 674
From: Budapest
They could always be replaced with some of these. Flown remotely from a high security base in Lincolnshire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VDsDT9qZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VDsDT9qZI
Joined: Apr 2008
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 836
Likes: 101
From: uk
Take a look at the thread Grey Ladies
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 708
Likes: 117
From: the far south
Of course the Red Arrows should go. We have a war to fight (or at least deter) and they just suck up money and personnel that could be used on other things. So should BBMF too!
The RAF's job is too fly and fight - everything else is ......
The trainer question is easy - order 25 346s tomorrow . Other options are either way overspeced (T-7 and KA-50) and Aeralis even if it was a good idea going to take too long to develop.
The longer we wait the more pain and cost it will take to get T2s to end of service
The RAF's job is too fly and fight - everything else is ......
The trainer question is easy - order 25 346s tomorrow . Other options are either way overspeced (T-7 and KA-50) and Aeralis even if it was a good idea going to take too long to develop.
The longer we wait the more pain and cost it will take to get T2s to end of service
Joined: Jul 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 50
Likes: 40
From: Land of the 'Long White Cloud'
Why use a trainer at all? Use a current frontline aircraft type and then when needed the elite group form a 'Wing' and off to war they go, all current and upto speed! It'll never catch on! Save money and training!
Joined: Dec 2020
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 1,582
Likes: 1,389
From: Over the rainbow
Of course the Red Arrows should go. We have a war to fight (or at least deter) and they just suck up money and personnel that could be used on other things. So should BBMF too!
The RAF's job is too fly and fight - everything else is ......
The trainer question is easy - order 25 346s tomorrow . Other options are either way overspeced (T-7 and KA-50) and Aeralis even if it was a good idea going to take too long to develop.
The longer we wait the more pain and cost it will take to get T2s to end of service
The RAF's job is too fly and fight - everything else is ......
The trainer question is easy - order 25 346s tomorrow . Other options are either way overspeced (T-7 and KA-50) and Aeralis even if it was a good idea going to take too long to develop.
The longer we wait the more pain and cost it will take to get T2s to end of service
Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: UK
The T-7 is more SAAB with a Boeing badge, the first 4 were conformed in Sweden before conformity-the US is requiring this more and more for military aircraft- and LRIP in the states. Still with the flight control issues I believe latest projection is 2027 for entry into service. Maybe as mentioned here we need a replacement for the Hawk immediately, we should look at the T-50 but not familiar with that aircraft myself. Or if Aeralis pull their finger out and they are who they claim to be then......
I'm seeing some Hawk suppliers really are taking advantage, one of my contacts has been trying to get an air starter overhauled for a foreign customer. It's taken 2 years and counting, the price and lead time astronomical, and Safran refuse to give approval to do it himself. The MOD use them.
I'm seeing some Hawk suppliers really are taking advantage, one of my contacts has been trying to get an air starter overhauled for a foreign customer. It's taken 2 years and counting, the price and lead time astronomical, and Safran refuse to give approval to do it himself. The MOD use them.
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 2,692
Likes: 1,532
From: Near the coast
BEagle
I’m sure you will know by now that I’m a big fan of the Hawk as a training jet and it worked brilliantly for everything the RAF had up to and including Typhoon (certainly in its early days). It’s still doing a good job now.
For the future though the Hawk would need such a redesign in terms of manoeuvrability and sensors (simulated or otherwise) that it would effectively become a new aircraft and it would be just as easy to start from scratch.
Remember that the Hawk IS a dead project so this is a moot point but it could do a good job with a significant avionics upgrade and skip the handling side of things.
The idea of an avionics enhancement has been talked about since the early days of the T2 and I can’t imagine it has progressed any further.
Basically, it’s done a great job, continues to do a good job but, if a replacement is being sought (which CAS says is the case) then there are many better options than a fresh design in terms of cost and timeline.
If money weren’t an object I’d love to see a fresh British design. But from what I’ve seen so far I’m afraid I firmly believe the Aeralis isn’t it, as much as I’d love it be.
BV
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 409
Likes: 49
From: The 24th & a Half Century
Sorry for the late reply.
I’m sure you will know by now that I’m a big fan of the Hawk as a training jet and it worked brilliantly for everything the RAF had up to and including Typhoon (certainly in its early days). It’s still doing a good job now.
For the future though the Hawk would need such a redesign in terms of manoeuvrability and sensors (simulated or otherwise) that it would effectively become a new aircraft and it would be just as easy to start from scratch.
Remember that the Hawk IS a dead project so this is a moot point but it could do a good job with a significant avionics upgrade and skip the handling side of things.
The idea of an avionics enhancement has been talked about since the early days of the T2 and I can’t imagine it has progressed any further.
Basically, it’s done a great job, continues to do a good job but, if a replacement is being sought (which CAS says is the case) then there are many better options than a fresh design in terms of cost and timeline.
If money weren’t an object I’d love to see a fresh British design. But from what I’ve seen so far I’m afraid I firmly believe the Aeralis isn’t it, as much as I’d love it be.
BV
I’m sure you will know by now that I’m a big fan of the Hawk as a training jet and it worked brilliantly for everything the RAF had up to and including Typhoon (certainly in its early days). It’s still doing a good job now.
For the future though the Hawk would need such a redesign in terms of manoeuvrability and sensors (simulated or otherwise) that it would effectively become a new aircraft and it would be just as easy to start from scratch.
Remember that the Hawk IS a dead project so this is a moot point but it could do a good job with a significant avionics upgrade and skip the handling side of things.
The idea of an avionics enhancement has been talked about since the early days of the T2 and I can’t imagine it has progressed any further.
Basically, it’s done a great job, continues to do a good job but, if a replacement is being sought (which CAS says is the case) then there are many better options than a fresh design in terms of cost and timeline.
If money weren’t an object I’d love to see a fresh British design. But from what I’ve seen so far I’m afraid I firmly believe the Aeralis isn’t it, as much as I’d love it be.
BV
