Undervalued Engineers?
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Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Some interesting reflective comments about training have emerged.
In my case, (213entry) we spent about 12 weeks filing aluminium blocks to size, basic rivet nailing, and, the delights of bend radii, making top hat sections. About 2/3 weeks were given to general engineering workshops plus basic electrics...wisely, were weren't allowed near any welding. Thence to skin repairs on Javelin wings, which are / were built like the proverbial. Thence to basic airframes, Piston Provosts !....modules, then advanced airframes and my first encounter with the infamous Hunter u/c spigot (and the string used to tension the bag tanks !). Discussions with others over the years suggested we were overtrained in some respects.
Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects. As for hacking and bashing, much more basic now, but still requires a test job at the end. With regard to BDR, as I've said, we did some initial development on 431, albeit we hadn't a clue as to what for, and how / why, as our "dynamic leader", living proof OASC was fallible, didn't actually bother to brief us...which may have helped. Ironically, on my second holiday in Germany, a BDR "empire" had emerged.
The "right tool for the job" was continuously stressed....pump screw drivers, almost banned !....adjustable spanners ?...erm, expediency comes to mind...wire locking pliers ?....should be recycled into scrap !
Changes to training could be "problematic" when encountering the "we've always done it this way ! " mentality. Notably when the AMM's were required to emulate the Sistine chapel painting a patch !....this got binned, by me, when a civvie at Marham ostensibly raised H n S issues about the substances used. Also, the litmus test. A waste of time / resources as they had all done the pink and blue test at school, plus, the acid / alkali effect on skin....far quicker, and practical, to take two former test jobs, place acid on one and alkali on the other, wait a few mins...and watch what happens. Easy, plus it saved money by reducing the number of times the water collector tank had to be emptied.
H n H....I can think of a couple of names at Bicester who would have fitted your description.
Incidentally, the black Jags shown came from Cranditz when the baby Eng.O's relocated. The crash mats could have been superfluous really, as a "fall from height" may have knocked some sense into some I subsequently encountered.
In my case, (213entry) we spent about 12 weeks filing aluminium blocks to size, basic rivet nailing, and, the delights of bend radii, making top hat sections. About 2/3 weeks were given to general engineering workshops plus basic electrics...wisely, were weren't allowed near any welding. Thence to skin repairs on Javelin wings, which are / were built like the proverbial. Thence to basic airframes, Piston Provosts !....modules, then advanced airframes and my first encounter with the infamous Hunter u/c spigot (and the string used to tension the bag tanks !). Discussions with others over the years suggested we were overtrained in some respects.
Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects. As for hacking and bashing, much more basic now, but still requires a test job at the end. With regard to BDR, as I've said, we did some initial development on 431, albeit we hadn't a clue as to what for, and how / why, as our "dynamic leader", living proof OASC was fallible, didn't actually bother to brief us...which may have helped. Ironically, on my second holiday in Germany, a BDR "empire" had emerged.
The "right tool for the job" was continuously stressed....pump screw drivers, almost banned !....adjustable spanners ?...erm, expediency comes to mind...wire locking pliers ?....should be recycled into scrap !
Changes to training could be "problematic" when encountering the "we've always done it this way ! " mentality. Notably when the AMM's were required to emulate the Sistine chapel painting a patch !....this got binned, by me, when a civvie at Marham ostensibly raised H n S issues about the substances used. Also, the litmus test. A waste of time / resources as they had all done the pink and blue test at school, plus, the acid / alkali effect on skin....far quicker, and practical, to take two former test jobs, place acid on one and alkali on the other, wait a few mins...and watch what happens. Easy, plus it saved money by reducing the number of times the water collector tank had to be emptied.
H n H....I can think of a couple of names at Bicester who would have fitted your description.
Incidentally, the black Jags shown came from Cranditz when the baby Eng.O's relocated. The crash mats could have been superfluous really, as a "fall from height" may have knocked some sense into some I subsequently encountered.
Joined: Jul 2022
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
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From: Down Sarf
Some interesting reflective comments about training have emerged.
In my case, (213entry) we spent about 12 weeks filing aluminium blocks to size, basic rivet nailing, and, the delights of bend radii, making top hat sections. About 2/3 weeks were given to general engineering workshops plus basic electrics...wisely, were weren't allowed near any welding. Thence to skin repairs on Javelin wings, which are / were built like the proverbial. Thence to basic airframes, Piston Provosts !....modules, then advanced airframes and my first encounter with the infamous Hunter u/c spigot (and the string used to tension the bag tanks !). Discussions with others over the years suggested we were overtrained in some respects.
Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects. As for hacking and bashing, much more basic now, but still requires a test job at the end. With regard to BDR, as I've said, we did some initial development on 431, albeit we hadn't a clue as to what for, and how / why, as our "dynamic leader", living proof OASC was fallible, didn't actually bother to brief us...which may have helped. Ironically, on my second holiday in Germany, a BDR "empire" had emerged.
The "right tool for the job" was continuously stressed....pump screw drivers, almost banned !....adjustable spanners ?...erm, expediency comes to mind...wire locking pliers ?....should be recycled into scrap !
Changes to training could be "problematic" when encountering the "we've always done it this way ! " mentality. Notably when the AMM's were required to emulate the Sistine chapel painting a patch !....this got binned, by me, when a civvie at Marham ostensibly raised H n S issues about the substances used. Also, the litmus test. A waste of time / resources as they had all done the pink and blue test at school, plus, the acid / alkali effect on skin....far quicker, and practical, to take two former test jobs, place acid on one and alkali on the other, wait a few mins...and watch what happens. Easy, plus it saved money by reducing the number of times the water collector tank had to be emptied.
H n H....I can think of a couple of names at Bicester who would have fitted your description.
Incidentally, the black Jags shown came from Cranditz when the baby Eng.O's relocated. The crash mats could have been superfluous really, as a "fall from height" may have knocked some sense into some I subsequently encountered.
In my case, (213entry) we spent about 12 weeks filing aluminium blocks to size, basic rivet nailing, and, the delights of bend radii, making top hat sections. About 2/3 weeks were given to general engineering workshops plus basic electrics...wisely, were weren't allowed near any welding. Thence to skin repairs on Javelin wings, which are / were built like the proverbial. Thence to basic airframes, Piston Provosts !....modules, then advanced airframes and my first encounter with the infamous Hunter u/c spigot (and the string used to tension the bag tanks !). Discussions with others over the years suggested we were overtrained in some respects.
Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects. As for hacking and bashing, much more basic now, but still requires a test job at the end. With regard to BDR, as I've said, we did some initial development on 431, albeit we hadn't a clue as to what for, and how / why, as our "dynamic leader", living proof OASC was fallible, didn't actually bother to brief us...which may have helped. Ironically, on my second holiday in Germany, a BDR "empire" had emerged.
The "right tool for the job" was continuously stressed....pump screw drivers, almost banned !....adjustable spanners ?...erm, expediency comes to mind...wire locking pliers ?....should be recycled into scrap !
Changes to training could be "problematic" when encountering the "we've always done it this way ! " mentality. Notably when the AMM's were required to emulate the Sistine chapel painting a patch !....this got binned, by me, when a civvie at Marham ostensibly raised H n S issues about the substances used. Also, the litmus test. A waste of time / resources as they had all done the pink and blue test at school, plus, the acid / alkali effect on skin....far quicker, and practical, to take two former test jobs, place acid on one and alkali on the other, wait a few mins...and watch what happens. Easy, plus it saved money by reducing the number of times the water collector tank had to be emptied.
H n H....I can think of a couple of names at Bicester who would have fitted your description.
Incidentally, the black Jags shown came from Cranditz when the baby Eng.O's relocated. The crash mats could have been superfluous really, as a "fall from height" may have knocked some sense into some I subsequently encountered.
Thought police antagonist
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
OK, wire locking pliers are useful but, only when doing long accessible lengths.....other than that, hands and pliers, to tension and form the end, are more than adequate. I've watched people struggle to get wire locking pliers into confined spaces, so dependent had they become on using them.
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Down Sarf
OK, wire locking pliers are useful but, only when doing long accessible lengths.....other than that, hands and pliers, to tension and form the end, are more than adequate. I've watched people struggle to get wire locking pliers into confined spaces, so dependent had they become on using them.
Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 11th February 2025 at 18:58.
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Westnoreastsouth
Also depends on which aircraft you are trying to wirelock 
I was always happy to use whichever technique would work on whatever I was locking - so I was happy to manually wirelock when necessary,also happy to use wirelocking pliers when I could - also sometimes used the wire spinners (twisters) when short of space.
On Harriers there were areas where one had to single lock (ie not twisted strands) due to lack of space/access - whatever technique that was necessary would be used
I was always happy to use whichever technique would work on whatever I was locking - so I was happy to manually wirelock when necessary,also happy to use wirelocking pliers when I could - also sometimes used the wire spinners (twisters) when short of space.
On Harriers there were areas where one had to single lock (ie not twisted strands) due to lack of space/access - whatever technique that was necessary would be used
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Not all adjustable’s are built the same, I do own one of these.
https://aircraftengineersstore.com/s...id-adjustable/
Rarely gets used, but it does come in handy once in a while.
https://aircraftengineersstore.com/s...id-adjustable/
Rarely gets used, but it does come in handy once in a while.
Joined: Jul 2022
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
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From: Down Sarf
Not all adjustable’s are built the same, I do own one of these.
https://aircraftengineersstore.com/s...id-adjustable/
Rarely gets used, but it does come in handy once in a while.
https://aircraftengineersstore.com/s...id-adjustable/
Rarely gets used, but it does come in handy once in a while.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 857
From: Here 'n' there!
I got the impression it was mainly that they'd never been instructed properly and/or used the kit for ages back in the mainstream RAF - but that was just my take on it. It all came back to them very quickly and I left them happy! I had a great 2 weeks there - fondly remembered to this day 35+ years down the line. Cue Sk going T/U in Norway with a sick Donk one weekend. Sqdn AEO called out to sort it. No "S" ECUs in the Engines Workshop or Main Stores so he duly called out the Engines Workshops team to get one repaired and "S" for collection by Herc first thing on Monday. Team worked all weekend and duly delivered a repaired engine to the Sqdn handing it to the Sqdn SMR (Senior Maintenance Rating) who had only just arrived at work after the weekend. SMR really puzzled - "Thanks guys, so what was up with the spare we always keep in the Sqdn hangar in case of just such an event?". Puzzled looks all round. Seems the AEO had "forgotten" that, probably 30 ft from his office was a fully "S" engine all bagged up ready to go once it had been "handed" depending on which position it was going to be fitted to. Oh, he made Admiral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
I'll let others give their views on H 'n' H - dons tin helmet and hunkers down for incoming embarrassing stories!!!! 
And I definitely didn't make Admiral - or anywhere near! Now, there must be a moral to that story...... somewhere ............. Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 12th February 2025 at 09:23.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Engineering officer decided to go with the boys out to Dulles Washington to do an engine change on a VC10, we kept getting excuses, problem with this, problem with that, then a private call ( he paid) to the line at Brize from the US, could you please put the engine lifting kit on the next Dulles flight, while we continue to stall.
He had managed to arrange everything needed to do the engine change, but forgot the lifting kit. Hence his phantom problems being sent in on the daily state.
He had managed to arrange everything needed to do the engine change, but forgot the lifting kit. Hence his phantom problems being sent in on the daily state.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Anglia
K&C said:
"Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects."
Well, the subject person probably was told that at some point but with the majority of training aircraft in the 90s being 'unconventionally controlled' and, as previously mentioned, spending his career to that date on the Tornado fleet, when a Hawk parked overnight in our team slot he genuinely queried why one 'flap' was pointing down and the other one pointing up...A few of us looked at him twice and then I took him back to those controls surface basics.
When I left the RAF pump screwdrivers were still to be found - in Stores - used for opening wooden transport crates the necessary.
.
"Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects."
Well, the subject person probably was told that at some point but with the majority of training aircraft in the 90s being 'unconventionally controlled' and, as previously mentioned, spending his career to that date on the Tornado fleet, when a Hawk parked overnight in our team slot he genuinely queried why one 'flap' was pointing down and the other one pointing up...A few of us looked at him twice and then I took him back to those controls surface basics.
When I left the RAF pump screwdrivers were still to be found - in Stores - used for opening wooden transport crates the necessary.
.
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Down Sarf
K&C said:
"Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects."
Well, the subject person probably was told that at some point but with the majority of training aircraft in the 90s being 'unconventionally controlled' and, as previously mentioned, spending his career to that date on the Tornado fleet, when a Hawk parked overnight in our team slot he genuinely queried why one 'flap' was pointing down and the other one pointing up...A few of us looked at him twice and then I took him back to those controls surface basics.
When I left the RAF pump screwdrivers were still to be found - in Stores - used for opening wooden transport crates the necessary.
.
"Rigga....surprised to hear you've met some who didn't know what an aileron was because they were certainly taught the theory of flight...and relevant control surfaces / effects."
Well, the subject person probably was told that at some point but with the majority of training aircraft in the 90s being 'unconventionally controlled' and, as previously mentioned, spending his career to that date on the Tornado fleet, when a Hawk parked overnight in our team slot he genuinely queried why one 'flap' was pointing down and the other one pointing up...A few of us looked at him twice and then I took him back to those controls surface basics.
When I left the RAF pump screwdrivers were still to be found - in Stores - used for opening wooden transport crates the necessary.
.
I used a cordless screw gun on my aircraft yesterday. Nice piece of kit and the first time I have used our new addition to our line station tool board.. Actually cordless drills are almost mandatory pieces of kit used in Civvy base maintenance.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Southampton
Pump screwdrivers were certainly useful when removing and refitting the interior soundproofing on Sea Kings when they had their routine PX24 spray. Used to take ages otherwise.
Otherwise they were perfect for damaging aircraft skin…
Otherwise they were perfect for damaging aircraft skin…
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Only thing they were any bloody good for was opening STC's. Reminds me of flying out to Turkey from Lyneham with a load of spares, tool kits and a Jaguar engine door in its STC. The bloody movers (bag chucklers) decided that a thin plywood shod STC was a prefect place to stick hundreds of kilogrammes of baggage on top of it. That the STC could not support. Stores at Colt were livid when they got the STC back from Turkey and it arrived back to us to be conditioned. My comment was "You should have seen the ****e they put on top of it!
I used a cordless screw gun on my aircraft yesterday. Nice piece of kit and the first time I have used our new addition to our line station tool board.. Actually cordless drills are almost mandatory pieces of kit used in Civvy base maintenance.
I used a cordless screw gun on my aircraft yesterday. Nice piece of kit and the first time I have used our new addition to our line station tool board.. Actually cordless drills are almost mandatory pieces of kit used in Civvy base maintenance.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Wales
My aversion to pump screwdrivers came about when one of our lads took his eye out with one. He was removing a Vulcan elevon seal (elevon off the aircraft) which was positioned on trestles such that the screw heads were underneath the leading edge and he was sitting and using the pump screwdriver upwards. It slipped !!
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Westnoreastsouth
The awful Pump screwdrivers were banned from use on aircraft by the mid 1970's (cannot remember exactly when) - as well as the dangers of them slipping off the screw heads they would have put heavy 'push' loads on any anchor nuts.
Joined: Jul 2024
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From: Devon
Comparing the tooling in use during my period in the RAF the snap on/facom kits in use today are light years ahead, the kits issued on 71MU must have been made up just after the WW1 armistice, massive 6X rivet guns from shipyards, 2BA open enders that were enormous and ancient files, how much time was wasted trying to work with this junk is anyone's guess, the red box tool kits available today reduce job times and are actually made for aircraft use and not building dreadnoughts.
Thought police antagonist
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
The 431 kit was even worse. A sort of box on wheels, which fitted into the boot of an Austin 1800 to give you an idea of the size, it was a "collection" of various tools, some "adapted" for past jobs, others, well past their use by date.
It was embarrassing, to say the least, when we went to other nations bases.
The Danes allocated us, and the Cat 3 Bucc, minus one outer wing, a hangar usually used to house a couple of Chipmunks at Karup. There, on the wall, was a shadow board, all "Snap On" with every tool you could wish for.
The Germans thought it was hilarious...as one drily commented, " ah, scrap ? "
It was embarrassing, to say the least, when we went to other nations bases.
The Danes allocated us, and the Cat 3 Bucc, minus one outer wing, a hangar usually used to house a couple of Chipmunks at Karup. There, on the wall, was a shadow board, all "Snap On" with every tool you could wish for.
The Germans thought it was hilarious...as one drily commented, " ah, scrap ? "
Joined: Jul 2024
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From: Devon
When 103MU was struck off in 1975 the tool store held items stored from the early 1920s when the MU was called X Depot in Egypt, we had to load up lighters to dump all this junk off shore, Audax rigging boards and beautifully made brass things in mahogany boxes were all chucked overboard.
One of the main tasks on the MU was to drill holes in things, all alloy, manganese steel, brass and extrusions, the standard RAF windy drill could only be selected ON or OFF, ON gave a very high RPM and this could only be reduced by kinking the airline to restrict air supply, absolute rubbish. I later bought a lovely pistol grip windy which was perfect for all jobs and offered complete control, used it for years and it cost about fifty quid in the early 80s, how this would have improved the job time and quality of the job on the MUs.
One of the main tasks on the MU was to drill holes in things, all alloy, manganese steel, brass and extrusions, the standard RAF windy drill could only be selected ON or OFF, ON gave a very high RPM and this could only be reduced by kinking the airline to restrict air supply, absolute rubbish. I later bought a lovely pistol grip windy which was perfect for all jobs and offered complete control, used it for years and it cost about fifty quid in the early 80s, how this would have improved the job time and quality of the job on the MUs.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
When the first Chinooks arrived, each came with a snap on toolbox filled with all the tools you may have needed, they were promptly removed to God knows where along with the centre row of seats, never to be seen again.