Undervalued Engineers?

[Rigga]

I knew of two Super Techs - one was fully engaged in doing all the land-away fixes and repairs and approved to do Nuke Certs on Bucc'. The other, as a wing commander, couldn't run a bath.

And as a B1 LAE you could do the Sqib jobs too!

As I had my A&C LWTR so early before leaving the RAF my FS used to farm me out to VASS to look after visiting a/c snags - Cobras with TRGB issues etc.

[Nolongerin]

Originally 213 Craft Apprentice then rebooted to 116. 3.5 yrs of Wendover Tech was enough for anyone.

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by Rigga

.......... In the 2010s there was a Navy tech in a Depth Hangar who split a heavily corroded plug off a connection to fix his continuity snag and then he tie-wrapped the plug back together. This was the mentality of First Line only experienced personnel in both the navy and RAF - what we used to call BDR techniques for all maintenance.

Blimey! Went through FAA Tiffy training '78 - '81 and, even as a Pinky/Fairy we did sheet metalwork, fitting & turning etc as well as all the usual in-Trade stuff such as wiring, practical faultfinding often down to component (resistor/valve/transistor level). How I wish I still had all my notes from back then - the inside of the ARC52 was a real work of art! And, looking back, I really enjoyed my Workshop time - which was used in anger quite a few times later on such as in support of the Falklands War or when doing a holdover at the JSGC Bicester even!

Fast-forward to the early '90's and we had a "Training Design" section to maintain the old courses (Tiffs and Line Mechanics) but, rather ominously, an even bigger "Training Re-design" section to produce a whole new suite of courses at both Mechanic-level and Tiff-level. Fortunately, I was only indirectly involved in that side but I think the content of the new courses led to some rather heated debates. Some of the changes were brought about by Repair Policy changes in the 90's such as, in the Av world, more and more cct boards which were simply not feasibly repairable at 2nd Line (or even further back at places like Sealand) - it was increasingly a "duff one in the bin and new one from stores" Repair Policy. But cost/training time was always under pressure too from the Beancounters...............

Of course, as several have noted, in the 2000's, IOS (Integrated Operational Support) contractorisation invaded our world which further reduced the need for Uniformed skills in Depth - again I was involved in that. And, as someone said earlier, this increasing lack of Senior Rates with Depth experience started to be reflected in the IPTs - the knowledge just evaporated as old Staff civvies retired but with no suitable "experienced" ex-Serving SRs to replace them. Indeed, my last experience was 2013-ish where I was a Contractor for BAE at Marham and we did have some Service personnel on the shop floor in Depth (3 & 4 Hangar) - but not that many. I never worked with any as they tended to work their own aircraft in the main but many of the Contractors were ex-Tornado SNCOs who were worth their weight in gold at times.

What it's like today I'm not sure any more - the FAA & RAF Recruitment Websites simply don't go into such detailed matters - I actually find them quite confusing with all their "Gloss"- an age thing maybe? However, all the above was predicted in our informal chats way back in the 90's. Most of us in Training Design/Redesign were ex-Tiffs or Mechs ourselves so we knew at 1st hand just what the Services and MoD were going to lose. All we could do was grumble into our pints in the bar........ and try and stop the real howlers from being imposed. All very sad really..................

[Rigga]

H&H, you have to think that some people were saying similar things when Aircraft Apprentices stopped being taught Coppersmithing and wire rigging too. (The end of the Walrus?). Training has to be changed at some point to move with developing technologies, but there will always be a need to pay attention to what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. What we used to call ‘airmanship’ (I’m not sure if that would be specialistship, now?) The lack of attention/awareness in changing a heavily corroded plug set is/was a deplorable instance of the mindset of some individuals that are/were allowed to work on aircraft.
Cosford trains those given to it, to whatever levels apparently required today…. i.e. for a digital fleet of non-conventionally controlled aircraft. Remember that many RAF maintenance staff never moved off the Tornado fleet - and most could not recognise an aileron when they actually saw one (true!). However, once out in the real world these newbies are then subjected to “We do it this way, here” by their mentors and superiors - and that traditional training is the “combat era” style of maintenance that has been going on for the last 30+ medal-generating years. The MAA tend not to recognise what goes on in spite of their regulations and engos are either oblivious to those practices or merely happy with their readiness states.

[NutLoose]

The courses just in front of myself did the last copper smithing at Saints, there was a display wall of the best of their work. We were one of the last piston courses and cover rotary, radial, sleeve valves, inline air cooled. Water cooled, prop swinging etc.

The basic metalwork etc during hacking and bashing was to give you the basics so in a war you could make or repair tools or equipment

[Rigga]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

The courses just in front of myself did the last copper smithing at Saints, there was a display wall of the best of their work. We were one of the last piston courses and cover rotary, radial, sleeve valves, inline air cooled. Water cooled, prop swinging etc.

The basic metalwork etc during hacking and bashing was to give you the basics so in a war you could make or repair tools or equipment

My course was the first Airframe Mech course, as St Athan closed and transferred, at Halton, 1975. We had only Appo stuff around us so we had no idea what we were to be taught. But we worked on Sea Vixens, Hunters, Provosts and Gnats and even we did a blade fold on a Whirlwind! Cosford now has Jags and Tornadoes - controlled by spoilers and elevons (surrounded by massive cushions) no basic aviation stuff to learn on (in my opinion). You even have to do an introductory course to get familiarised on "helicopters" as, I believe, they don't teach that at Cosford.

[Hot 'n' High]

TBH Rigga, I really was probably over-trained but it meant I could do stuff "out of Trade" for things like Corporate and, far more importantly, even today in D-I-Y there's not much that I balk at!!!!!! It also gave me a good all-round appreciation for "Engineering". At RNEC Manadon I even did pattern-making and casting - never used that I'll confess!!!! But a staff Chief Tech in the JSGC at Bicester (not sure if he was Sooty or a Rigger) was most surprised when I showed him that his lathe wasn't "a stinking pile of cr@p" ....... you just don't take 1mm+ cuts into steel when the raw bar was 1cm. He was most bemused that a Navy Av even knew what a lathe was ....... let alone was advising him on using one. To his credit he asked for a quick summary of pointers before I left after my 2-week "loaf-Ex" (a.m. glider maintenance - p.m. hoofing around in thermals in said gliders!!!!!)! I left him well happy with his lathe and milling machine!

WRT the new courses, of course if things were no longer repairable at even 3rd Line, why train for it? No-one had a problem with that tho many questions were asked regarding the Navy way of doing many repairs at sea without any back-up from ashore. So the first thing we hoped would happen was that "Ranging and Scaling" would place the right stores in the right places to effect "Repair by Replacement" Maintenance Policies at sea and how much that all cost. But the bigger concerns came, for example, when cuts were proposed for more general things such as "1st Line Servicing" training. All that means is that the Training Squadrons had to take a lower-quality product and ensure they were safe to service and do see-offs and see-ins on the live aircraft with live aircrew on board. The training load was effectively being transferred from Training School to the Squadron. Different cost-centre I guess (or is that me being cynical? Moi???????)!

The final thing I recalled being discussed with sadness over beers was the acknowledgement that Forces Engineering Training was really the Govt up-skilling the future Commercial (Manufacturing and Servicing) Engineers and Technicians for UK plc. Of course, UK Engineering plc is now a shadow of the '70's and 80's (with some amazing high-tech exceptions such as F1 motorsport!). Maybe it was all a Govt conspiracy to drive out Engineering from the UK and hence why bother to up-skill your future civvy workforce in the Armed Forces?

I'm just really grateful I got to have such a quality in-depth Engineering education - and had a great time too! Damn, I sound old!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Diff Tail Shim]

Originally Posted by Rigga

My course was the first Airframe Mech course, as St Athan closed and transferred, at Halton, 1975. We had only Appo stuff around us so we had no idea what we were to be taught. But we worked on Sea Vixens, Hunters, Provosts and Gnats and even we did a blade fold on a Whirlwind! Cosford now has Jags and Tornadoes - controlled by spoilers and elevons (surrounded by massive cushions) no basic aviation stuff to learn on (in my opinion). You even have to do an introductory course to get familiarised on "helicopters" as, I believe, they don't teach that at Cosford.

Tailerons for Tornado and Tailplanes for Jaguar. The Jaguars system had a speed controlled differental mixer to use tailplane halves as roll control. Diff Tail.. The Shim was at the bottom of the pogo stick that allowed pitch and roll commands to be transfered to the PFCUs. Worn shim allowed backlash to built up on the system and cause the neutrals to be out of limits on minor checks . Never heard the term Elevons used on those aircraft and Elevons are not all moving surfaces, but trailing edge surfaces used on Deltas like Concorde and Vulcans. Oral airframe basic airframe structures fail..

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Rigga

My course was the first Airframe Mech course, as St Athan closed and transferred, at Halton, 1975. We had only Appo stuff around us so we had no idea what we were to be taught. But we worked on Sea Vixens, Hunters, Provosts and Gnats and even we did a blade fold on a Whirlwind! Cosford now has Jags and Tornadoes - controlled by spoilers and elevons (surrounded by massive cushions) no basic aviation stuff to learn on (in my opinion). You even have to do an introductory course to get familiarised on "helicopters" as, I believe, they don't teach that at Cosford.

I went through saints in 76 on my engine mechs course, remember this, that was at Saints and is now at Cosford or was, still in service. These were taken 2019



Your bouncy castles for working at heights in the training environment



Things that made me think standards have slipped. Cowlings stacked on the floor without anything underneath them, made worse by being stacked next to empty racking



Pallets stacked on a pallet truck being used to fit pylons and stores on the “new” training aid Tornado.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Remember the JP at Halton in the new workshops (AFTS) 41 years ago!. As a basic aeroplane to start with, one has to start at the basics.

[BEagle]

Nice looking JP, but was it a gotcha for apprentoids to spot the wrong colour nav light?

[Rigga]

I never saw that JP - what a horrendous task that must’ve been!

Ive just remembered that I’ve only been to Cosford once, to shoot guns! Tern Hill and Shawbury were in Training Command - so I didn’t fire a gun for four years until Training Command was eventually absorbed into Strike!

I totally agree with your picture comments, Nutty, but are you applying civil standards to military practices? (especially about Panels on the floor and the [ab]use of pallets). Would we have done that in our time as we were taught ‘make do and mend’ by our seniors? (And yes, I do acknowledge these pics are (hopefully) at Cosford school and should all be done properly in any case).

Nice spot Beagle!

[Saintsman]

Do they still teach you how to use tools?

I remember spending a whole day learning how to use a screwdriver. The different types and sizes and then taking off and refitting panels for practice.

[papa_sierra]

I do hope those awful contraptions, pump screwdrivers, had been consigned to history by then.

[Geriaviator]

Another century, another place, but the Halton graduates of the 1930s proved masters of make and mend in the grim years that lay ahead. For example, they patched the leading edge and designed, fabricated and fitted a reinforcement plate to the mainspar in this Fairey Battle -- in temperatures of -10C in their makeshift airfield at Berry-au-Bac, France, May 1940. Note the civvy registration on the Coles crane, which my father recalled was requisitioned from a London company and taken to France with the BEF.

The mainplane was replaced, the 250lb bombs on the right reloaded, and the aircraft returned to service two days later but in vain, like most of the wretched Battles it was shot down on its second sortie. Maybe it's impossible to carry out such work on today's aircraft though perhaps the Ukrainian engineers would say otherwise.

[NutLoose]

Se

Originally Posted by papa_sierra

I do hope those awful contraptions, pump screwdrivers, had been consigned to history by then.

I still have one in the back of my tool box, never used lol.

[Nolongerin]

What about wire locking pliers? Were they a good thing or ‘cheating’ a bit?


thread drift - sorry

[DuncanDoenitz]

Originally Posted by papa_sierra

I do hope those awful contraptions, pump screwdrivers, had been consigned to history by then.

Funny how different organisations can have widely different views on what is an acceptable practice.

Towards the end of a 30-year career as an RAF technician I spent a few months seconded to an RN helicopter unit. The naval tool-store did not carry adjustable spanners (wrenches) as techies were expected to select a spanner of the correct size, and a misused adjustable could damage the nut/bolt. Standard means of removing panel-screws, however was pump-action screwdrivers.

Wanted to bring a vehicle into an RAF flight sergeaant's hangar? Had to be a diesel, due to the risk of sparks from the ignition system of a petrol/gasoline engine. But wait a minute, this is the 21st Century; petrol engines have electronic ignition, and diesels have particulate filter devices that periodically burn-off the residue?

And don't even start on the mobile phone situation .....

[tucumseh]

Originally Posted by DuncanDoenitz

Funny how different organisations can have widely different views on what is an acceptable practice.

Towards the end of a 30-year career as an RAF technician I spent a few months seconded to an RN helicopter unit. The naval tool-store did not carry adjustable spanners (wrenches) as techies were expected to select a spanner of the correct size, and a misused adjustable could damage the nut/bolt. Standard means of removing panel-screws, however was pump-action screwdrivers.

Wanted to bring a vehicle into an RAF flight sergeaant's hangar? Had to be a diesel, due to the risk of sparks from the ignition system of a petrol/gasoline engine. But wait a minute, this is the 21st Century; petrol engines have electronic ignition, and diesels have particulate filter devices that periodically burn-off the residue?

And don't even start on the mobile phone situation .....

Fully agree about adjustable spanners. An abomination, not issued in personal toolkits, and not in Loan Tool Stores. But neither were pump screwdrivers in any Navy workshop I was in. Accidentally damage an aircraft or equipment? Hold your hands up immediately, and few comebacks apart from a stern lecture and closer supervision. But damage them with the wrong tool or technique? 3-day suspension without pay and loss of craft allowance. Standards have definitely slipped, which is what happens when you put tools in charge of tools, delete training, and allow maintainers to use whatever they happen to have lying around. Flt Lt Sean Cunningham case in a nutshell.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Originally Posted by Nolongerin

What about wire locking pliers? Were they a good thing or ‘cheating’ a bit?


thread drift - sorry

Used reversable pliers today. Do a sweet job.