Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Il Frecce Tricolore-Ejection at Turin 16 Sept 2023

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Il Frecce Tricolore-Ejection at Turin 16 Sept 2023

Old 16th Sep 2023, 22:32
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,904
Received 351 Likes on 124 Posts
SO much utter nonsense posted on this thread!

Aircraft suffered a loss of thrust at a critical time; pilot ejected. Sadly the aircraft subsequently struck a car with fatal consequences.

BEagle is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2023, 22:36
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Received 14 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli
A few years back the Blue Angels lost an aircraft in Smyrna, Tennessee while practicing for the upcoming airshow. Smyrna airport is pretty much surrounded by built up areas.
The difference is that the pilot of that aircraft chose to stay in the jet so he could point it where it would do the least damage. Just sayin'.....
RIP Capt Kuss
The loss of a pilot is a tragic event so my sympathy’s to his loved ones but the accident report into the Smyrna crash does not really reflect your statement.
ASRAAMTOO is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 02:48
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,564
Received 42 Likes on 21 Posts
A Snowbird aircraft had a birdstrike, Western Tanager, departing Kamloops towards a residential area. The passenger did not survive ejection and the pilot was seriously injured. I believe the ejection seats were replaced.

Globe and Mail
​​​​
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 03:44
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 6,059
Received 559 Likes on 261 Posts
aircraft involved do need to be suitable for the likely conditions - and that must include possible bird strikes
No aircraft is immune to engine failure caused by a bird strike, occurs to airliners often enough.
megan is online now  
The following 3 users liked this post by megan:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 06:37
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,990
Received 313 Likes on 160 Posts
Originally Posted by alfaman
Not sure of the relevance: as I understand it, the team were not displaying, they were departing to display elsewhere..
Temporarily operating from Torino/Caselle because the nearby Torino/Agnelli was to be the venue for today's display to mark the 100th anniversary of the Italian AF (which will not now happen).
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 07:10
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chedburgh, Bury St.Edmunds
Age: 81
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 9 Posts
Nutloose. Apparently the car involved was a SMART. Not one of the two in shot. Meant no offence earlier. Regards, John.
JEM60 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 09:01
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: Europe
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Aftermath:
A quick look at Google Maps confirms this as being the north end of the runway at Turin airport (TRN-LIMF).As seen in the photo, the aircraft after having impacted the car, came to rest at the edge of the field, stopping only 450 feet (roughly 140 metres) short of a group of houses.Tragic as this is, makes one wonder how very different the outcome could have been.
Aplologies as I cannot post urls/images yet.
Turin airport will remain closed until 24.00 of September 17.
Vatanen is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 09:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: England
Posts: 666
Received 374 Likes on 175 Posts
Staying with an aircraft is all very commendable but I suggest maybe just a fanciful idea. Once you get to the point it's time to eject most likely the aircraft is coming down in that spot whether you are in it or not.
Once you go below minimum control you are not going to influence that outcome. Best to pull the handle and hope for the best.
It's clear in this instance that the pilot lost the engine at the worst possible time. Low and slow. He had just few seconds to react and save himself. He could not predict the aircraft would hit the car even if he could see it. Most likely when he pulled the handle the road was clear.
Just one of those things.
DogTailRed2 is offline  
The following 5 users liked this post by DogTailRed2:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 09:46
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,551
Received 3,314 Likes on 1,379 Posts
Originally Posted by JEM60
Nutloose. Apparently the car involved was a SMART. Not one of the two in shot. Meant no offence earlier. Regards, John.
Thank you
NutLoose is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 10:14
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 253
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO
The only potential relevance of this being a display team is that it MAY have involved a formation take off. If so then they MAY have lined up further down the runway and potentially used less than full power for take off, thus moving the crash site position. To my eye the aircraft looked way too low energy to have got airbourne then joined up to fly through. Had that been the case then a zoom climb to force landing attempt or at least a higher ejection would probably have ensued.

RWY 36 TODA is 3750 m. In this case, I wouldn‘t during normal operations expect a light jet to crash through the fence at the far end. In other words, I wonder whether one could/should put a question mark on an airshow-style take-off (all of the aircraft seem to very low) from an airport during normal operations, where corresponding precautions have not been taken (such as stopping traffic on the crossing road).
EDMJ is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 10:40
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,395
Received 695 Likes on 204 Posts
Double standards

Is it because the aircraft in question is Italian that we are allowing more latitude for people to spout absolute horsesh1t?!

Every single engine jet in history has had a ‘dead zone’ on every take off it has ever done (unless taking off from a ludicrously long runway). There will be a period where an engine failure will leave ejection as the only option. Not enough runway to land back on, and not enough energy to make it back to an alternate landing surface.

If, as the video suggests, this was an engine failure at low altitude (bird strike seems a very likely reason) there was absolutely nothing the pilot could do. If he’d stayed with the aircraft he would be another fatality. He couldn’t have steered it anywhere.

If we are looking to blame the age and type of aircraft then you probably need to scrap every Hawk and F16 (and most training aircraft) in the world as well.

This accident is simply a case of desperately bad luck and timing with a tragic outcome.

BV
Bob Viking is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 10:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: Europe
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EDMJ
RWY 36 TODA is 3750 m. In this case, I wouldn‘t during normal operations expect a light jet to crash through the fence at the far end. In other words, I wonder whether one could/should put a question mark on an airshow-style take-off (all of the aircraft seem to very low) from an airport during normal operations, where corresponding precautions have not been taken (such as stopping traffic on the crossing road).
It was indeed a formation takeoff.Another video has surfaced and it seems to be shot from the east side of the runway, most probably from the spotting point (or slightly north of it) which can also be found on Google Maps.
Vatanen is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 10:50
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 864
Received 65 Likes on 28 Posts
Originally Posted by munnst
Staying with an aircraft is all very commendable but I suggest maybe just a fanciful idea. Once you get to the point it's time to eject most likely the aircraft is coming down in that spot whether you are in it or not.
Once you go below minimum control you are not going to influence that outcome. Best to pull the handle and hope for the best.
It's clear in this instance that the pilot lost the engine at the worst possible time. Low and slow. He had just few seconds to react and save himself. He could not predict the aircraft would hit the car even if he could see it. Most likely when he pulled the handle the road was clear.
Just one of those things.
No point in having seats fitted if you are not going to use them.

Sadly, it was just one of those things.
Saintsman is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Saintsman:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 11:24
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Terribly tragic accident - heartfelt condolences to the parents and family of the poor child who was killed in the ensuing accident...and my thoughts go to the team as well...they must be feeling absolutely terrible...nobody's fault..."fate is the hunter"...
barryt is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 11:34
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EDLB
Posts: 370
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
From loss of power to impact there are about 12 seconds. What do you think you can manage beside ejecting, which was probably the only check list line item for this case.
EDLB is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 12:24
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: England
Posts: 666
Received 374 Likes on 175 Posts
Be interesting to understand what sort of bird caused the failure. You would think a jet engine could withstand say a Pidgeon impact. Are the engines really that frail?
DogTailRed2 is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 13:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,385
Received 386 Likes on 223 Posts
Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli
A few years back the Blue Angels lost an aircraft in Smyrna, Tennessee while practicing for the upcoming airshow. Smyrna airport is pretty much surrounded by built up areas.
The difference is that the pilot of that aircraft chose to stay in the jet so he could point it where it would do the least damage. Just sayin'.....
RIP Capt Kuss
Garbage! He screwed up the manouevre and ejected too late, none of which has anything to do with the incident in question
212man is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by 212man:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 14:08
  #38 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,985
Received 926 Likes on 271 Posts
Originally Posted by EDMJ
RWY 36 TODA is 3750 m. In this case, I wouldn‘t during normal operations expect a light jet to crash through the fence at the far end. In other words, I wonder whether one could/should put a question mark on an airshow-style take-off (all of the aircraft seem to very low) from an airport during normal operations, where corresponding precautions have not been taken (such as stopping traffic on the crossing road).
?

Pretty sure that birds are more likely to get out of the way of a flock of jets than just one, if anything, but they still get strikes. Birds forget to give way to jumbo jets, so just not sure that there is much to debate about added birdstrike risk from a formation takeoff. These guys had a fair amount of energy already, but not sufficient to allow a turn back, and there was no great choices remaining. The decision speed for an turn back is dependent on the runway geometry (the minimum height loss/energy loss to reposition to a runway). A 180, would have a decision speed somewhere near 180 kts with a low drag index. It can be possible to do the turn below that, but not much less for a straight winged jet like a 326, 339, SMR, SOKO, L-28, IS-2, S-211 etc. The L-39 will need a bit higher speed, a Fouga, a little less. Even with routine practice, it is a high risk event.

Traffic stoplights might be a response, but there can be a fair spread laterally on the trajectory of an abandoned aircraft or an aircraft that needs to be abandoned. Consider the Red Arrows ATB practice out of Valley, where it didn't work out but the wreckage missed all 3rd parties. Being near any airport comes with a slightly elevated risk.
fdr is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2023, 14:15
  #39 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,985
Received 926 Likes on 271 Posts
Originally Posted by munnst
Be interesting to understand what sort of bird caused the failure. You would think a jet engine could withstand say a Pidgeon impact. Are the engines really that frail?
The engines are not frail, but they are intolerant of taking a mass down the core. Any damage to a blade will cascade downstream, and the blades are running anything up to 20K plus for small N1's, and 30K for the N1. The blades have high radial loads on them, many are running root loads well over 20 tons, with the tip running mach 1.6 or more. Hitting a bird on one of these engines will curl the blade forward normally, and that will twist the blade to a higher AOA, and higher out of plane forces which help the blade tear itself up.

If a bird is a problem on a fan blade or compressor and is considered to be "frail.... ", try catching a piece of 80gm plain paper with a tail rotor blade of a Robbie.
fdr is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Sep 2023, 14:32
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,990
Received 313 Likes on 160 Posts
Originally Posted by Vatanen
It was indeed a formation takeoff.Another video has surfaced and it seems to be shot from the east side of the runway, most probably from the spotting point (or slightly north of it) which can also be found on Google Maps.
The video linked in the very first post was shot from the road running along the eastern and then northern edge of the airfield (the same road the victims were driving along).
DaveReidUK is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.