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Il Frecce Tricolore-Ejection at Turin 16 Sept 2023

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Il Frecce Tricolore-Ejection at Turin 16 Sept 2023

Old 17th Sep 2023, 16:21
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A very long time ago now I flew first the dual Vampire then Macchi MB326H when EFATOs Engine Failure After Take Off actions were practiced a lot - less so in the Macchi. A diagram about the Vampire EFATO was posted on another thread IIRC. This Macchi diagram is from the 1973 RAAF Flight Manual but it shows 'Forced Landing' with the LOW KEY position. Earlier others have indicated some variables for EFATO.


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Old 17th Sep 2023, 18:43
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Probably not a popular question, but was the car parked or travelling ? Is there ( or would it be normal to have ) a prohibited parking zone at the end of a arunway ?
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 19:40
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
Probably not a popular question, but was the car parked or travelling ? Is there ( or would it be normal to have ) a prohibited parking zone at the end of a arunway ?
Local reports say the family were travelling home.

No traffic control or parking restrictions - Google shows a better spotting location used by the locals roughly abeam the runway midpoint.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
Probably not a popular question, but was the car parked or travelling ? Is there ( or would it be normal to have ) a prohibited parking zone at the end of a arunway ?
Most airports and airbases in my experience do. However in my experience a lot of spotters ignore them and park there anyway. In this incident the picture up thread and one video shows a view blocking fence, and it looks like thereís no parking spaces in this particular undershoot. It may well be wrong place, wrong time here, rather than standing in the naughty field.

Re bird strikes as various people have said above, there is no guarantee against them or what effect they may have. Good wildlife management practices can reduce birdstrike or wildlife incidents but theyíll never be eradicated. In my experience some Italian airports have had less than optimal policies and practices, but I have no knowledge of this particular location.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 19:49
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Is it because the aircraft in question is Italian that we are allowing more latitude for people to spout absolute horsesh1t?!

BV
Well said, its still flowing.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 21:48
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The video linked in the very first post was shot from the road running along the eastern and then northern edge of the airfield (the same road the victims were driving along).
Agreed, and that is the ubiquitous video we are seeing in all the media.
The video I was referring to in my post was a second, less circulated video from a different angle showing the takeoff roll, rotation and subsequent impact.Coincidentally this second video appears to have been taken from the spot you mention in your post.
Unfortunately I am not yet able to post a link to this video, however, it's out there.

Originally Posted by jumpseater
Good wildlife management practices can reduce birdstrike or wildlife incidents ........but I have no knowledge of this particular location.
"At the airport, as evidenced by the report, specific practices and dissuasion systems have been adopted, such as the use of cars with two-tone sirens, but also 22 trained falcons, in permanent residency, and two border collie dogs used to ward off wildlife in general." (Source:SkyTG24)

Last edited by Vatanen; 18th Sep 2023 at 15:05. Reason: Amended to account for post # change
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 22:27
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As I mentioned immediately above, how do people suggest that similar incidents could be minimised in the future: mine would be that national teams use turbo-prop trainers in place of turbo-jet ones because, I think, they would be less vulnerable to severe birdstrike effects?

And, I would suggest, using such planes would be more representative of how modern airforces operate because a large number of them now use turbo-prop advanced trainers in place of the pure jet ones that they used to use for some advanced training courses for both cost and effectiveness reasons.

However, that's just my thoughts on the subject - what are yours?
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 22:53
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Originally Posted by jeallen01
As I mentioned immediately above, how do people suggest that similar incidents could be minimised in the future: mine would be that national teams use turbo-prop trainers in place of turbo-jet ones because, I think, they would be less vulnerable to severe birdstrike effects?

And, I would suggest, using such planes would be more representative of how modern airforces operate because a large number of them now use turbo-prop advanced trainers in place of the pure jet ones that they used to use for some advanced training courses for both cost and effectiveness reasons.

However, that's just my thoughts on the subject - what are yours?
?


Last time I asked any, birds don't care if the plane is in a demo formation or a single ship, airliner or military. they just responded with... well, not much. Do you recommend the airlines also change over to turbo props? Sully might agree with you on that score, or the guys at Chiampino in the Ryan B73NG years back, or the Nimrod out of Kinloss. Adding ammo and stuff to a PC9 or 21 may well replace an air superiority fighter aircraft, so the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels can reduce their risks to the public. Need a new name though, like "squealing chicklets".

Military demonstration teams are a show case of the capability and resources of a nation, and is intended to send a message to the potential pool of recruits, and to other nations in equal measure. The problem here wasn't one of economy or efficiency, it was of an aircraft, any axial compressor turbo machinery occupying same space-time block with local fauna.

P.S.: turbo props with axial compressors can have bad days with birds too... a number of C-130, P-3 engine failures were directly due to bird ingestion.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 04:10
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Except for variant differences (avionics/engines) the Macchi Flight Manuals appear to hold very similar information but I did not get into the weeds too much. The MB-339C Flight Manual excerpt below has some very interesting advice about "bird goblin'" Then sage advice about attempting to land a dead engine Macchi. An RAN Macchi MB326H ate a sea eagle just after takeoff at NAS Nowra with the aircraft dual - dumping the practice bombs and minigun to make a good turnback dead stick landing to very hot brakes at runway end c.1982 but I don't have all the details. https://www.docdroid.com/dhIKIRH/aer...ght-manual-pdf (6.8Mb)


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Old 18th Sep 2023, 04:32
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Same diagram in the MB-339A Flight Manual (except it is in Italian) as this one below from the MB-339c Flight Manual. "MB-339PAN
Variant for Frecce Tricolori aerobatic team, adding smoke generator but removing tip tanks; 21 newly built or converted from MB-339A"

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Old 18th Sep 2023, 08:50
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JEAllen

Originally Posted by jeallen01
As I mentioned immediately above, how do people suggest that similar incidents could be minimised in the future: mine would be that national teams use turbo-prop trainers in place of turbo-jet ones because, I think, they would be less vulnerable to severe birdstrike effects?

And, I would suggest, using such planes would be more representative of how modern airforces operate because a large number of them now use turbo-prop advanced trainers in place of the pure jet ones that they used to use for some advanced training courses for both cost and effectiveness reasons.

However, that's just my thoughts on the subject - what are yours?
My thoughts are thus. If you can use a jet, use a jet. Turboprop display teams just donít look as good and donít wow the crowd in the same way.

We are off down a rabbit hole of assuming this accident was a result of a bird strike. Letís not assume that just yet.

As for turboprop vs jets for bird resistance, I remain unconvinced that a carbon fibre propeller offers more protection than a small pair of air intakes. I say that as someone who, until last year, flew single engine jet trainers and now flies a single engine turboprop trainer. Sure the lower speed means smaller dents but I wouldnít necessarily assume the turboprop would fair any better.

I will reiterate that we still donít know if a bird was responsible for this accident so it might be a slightly moot point.

BV
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 09:02
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Originally Posted by jeallen01
As I mentioned immediately above, how do people suggest that similar incidents could be minimised in the future: mine would be that national teams use turbo-prop trainers in place of turbo-jet ones because, I think, they would be less vulnerable to severe birdstrike effects?

And, I would suggest, using such planes would be more representative of how modern airforces operate because a large number of them now use turbo-prop advanced trainers in place of the pure jet ones that they used to use for some advanced training courses for both cost and effectiveness reasons.

However, that's just my thoughts on the subject - what are yours?
If by similar incidents you mean a take off or low level birdstrike, then air force and airline operating procedures already recognise the risks and mitigate as far as is practicable. Design and certification criteria are also an integral element.

If you are specifically referring to the cars being impacted by the abandoned aircraft, then that is an even rarer occurrence and due to the range of situations and subsequent consequences I fail to see how every possibility could be covered.

This event appears to be an absolutely tragic accident. Short of reverting to a stone age caveman existance, mankind (at risk now of upsetting more people) will continue to experience occasional unfortunate events as a result of the way we now live.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 10:29
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MB 339 to be replaced

"In the near future, aircraft replacement is expected in the modernization cycle of the Frecce Tricolori fleet."
This was announced by Colonel Paolo Rubino, Commander of the Frecce tricolori, on Rai Fvg, answering a question on the age of the planes used by the aerobatic team."
(Source: ANSA news agency)


"The Aermacchi M-345 is a turbofan-powered military trainer aircraft designed and produced by the Italian defense conglomerate Leonardo S.p.A.

It is a development of the SIAI-Marchetti S.211. On 29 December 2016, the M-345 performed its maiden flight; one month later, the first order for the type was placed by the Italian Air Force. The first production-standard M-345 was flown from Venegono Superiore in December 2018; at this point, service entry with the Italian Air Force was anticipated to occur during 2020.

During January 2017, Italy placed an initial order for five M-345s for the Italian Air Force (IAF). The service has a requirement for up to 45 aircraft to replace Aermacchi MB-339s used in both the basic training role and by the Frecce Tricolori aerobatic team.
In June 2019, Italy placed a follow-on order for an additional 13 M-345s, bringing the total up to 18.

In May 2020, the M-345 achieved its initial military certification.During January 2021, the IAF inducted its first pair of M-345 trainers; the type will replace the MB-339A as the service's second and third phases of its pilot training programme."
(Source: Wikipedia)
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 11:56
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
Same diagram in the MB-339A Flight Manual (except it is in Italian) as this one below from the MB-339c Flight Manual. "MB-339PAN
Variant for Frecce Tricolori aerobatic team, adding smoke generator but removing tip tanks; 21 newly built or converted from MB-339A"
Stretch the legs out forward of the seat? Isn't that counter intuitive? Most ejection sequences pull your feet under the seat to prevent you leaving them behind.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 12:31
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Stretch the legs out forward of the seat?
Must do - else seat is moving fast when it connects with your thighs...

Most ejection sequences pull your feet under the seat to prevent you leaving them behind.
Exactly - by now your thighs are firmly on the seat and only accelerating at the seat's "safe" rate.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 12:35
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Munnst

Stretching your legs out avoids a gap between your thigh and the seat. Otherwise the seat would accelerate into your thigh and snap your femur. Stretch out your legs and let the acceleration and leg restraints pull your lower legs in as you move up the rail.

Counterintuitive I agree but very necessary.

BV

Last edited by Bob Viking; 18th Sep 2023 at 12:49.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 12:48
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Originally Posted by munnst
Stretch the legs out forward of the seat? Isn't that counter intuitive? Most ejection sequences pull your feet under the seat to prevent you leaving them behind.
The seat does indeed have automatic leg restraints.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 13:39
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Has placing a grille on the intake of single engine jets ever been an option? A grille that can withstand a pidgeon at takeoff speeds would not have to be that heavy, and at higher speeds, the plane should have enough speed and altitude to remain controllable for some time.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 14:12
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Originally Posted by BRE
Has placing a grille on the intake of single engine jets ever been an option? A grille that can withstand a pidgeon at takeoff speeds would not have to be that heavy, and at higher speeds, the plane should have enough speed and altitude to remain controllable for some time.
Apart from its weight and effect on engine performance​​​​​​, it is likely that such a grill would get broken by the impact of birds, adding yet more debris to the problem. P.S. What's a pidgeon?


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Old 18th Sep 2023, 14:17
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Originally Posted by BRE
Has placing a grille on the intake of single engine jets ever been an option? A grille that can withstand a pidgeon at takeoff speeds would not have to be that heavy, and at higher speeds, the plane should have enough speed and altitude to remain controllable for some time.
A grille providing sufficient resistance would actually cause quite significant restriction and disturbance to the airflow. If damaged in flight it also has the potential to be further hardware fed to the engine, which is not configured to act as a waste disposal unit.
I am aware of at least one instance where a ground running grille hadn't been adequately maintained/ inspected and ended up destroying the engine it was supposed to protect. Another variation of 617' Squadron's demonstration that throttling intake airflow with something is never going to work out well.....

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