Ukraine War Thread Part 2
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On top of that the demonstration of US weaponry in Ukraine is driving US weapons sales to other Countries such as Poland who is spending multi multi billions in the US buying new Weapons that is sustaining US arms manufacturers and increasing the US workforce as they increase to cope with demand that is also pumping currency into the US economy in sales and support……
Last edited by Chock Puller; 3rd Jun 2023 at 22:32. Reason: Personal Foul.
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More looting in Russian towns in the Belogrod region, in towns not captured, but by locals themselves and possibly the Russian military.. if the military are involved then that helps for the independence cause, nothing like being robbed and looted by your own side to turn a public against you.
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This will be the shot down Storm Shadows Russia was talking about, the remains appear to have fallen on and destroyed the two warehouses that they were targeting, that was lucky wasn’t it 
Nutty,
All that being said one must also remember it is the American Taxpayer that is coughing up the Dosh for those expenditures and the Current Budget is something like Two Triillon Dollars in the Red (or some astronomical figure depending upon which version you believe) but it is a huge deficit each year that has to be financed by Federal Government Debt which is an added cost on that spending.
How about all of the UK's spending on Ukraine.....ya'll reaping the benefits of that in the same ways you say the American People are doing?
That goes for every Nation forking over money, arms, etc.
How's the UK current budget doing?
Asking how long the many Nations assisting Ukraine can afford to continue to do so is a legitimate question.
We saw during Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan Wars....the longer they drag on....the more popular support falls and that translates into pressure upon politicians to consider their own exposure and then funding becomes a problem.
Ukraine is a long way from Iowa and after over two decades of War and all that cost.....maintaining support for Ukraine is going to see the same trials and tribulations over time I am betting.
I am just pointing out reality....at some point every War comes to an end.....the question is what kind of an end.....and the longer it lasts the worst the ending will probably be.
Look back to the Korean War and how that wound up....remember it was called a "Police Action" before it was called a War and ended in an Armistice just as did WWI, the War to end all Wars that one was right?
WWII morphed into the Cold War.
My money is on Ukraine.....and if they get enough support and the rest of the World figures out how to put sanctions on Russia that work....and don't harm the rest of us.....we hopefully shall see the Russians utterly whipped.
All that being said one must also remember it is the American Taxpayer that is coughing up the Dosh for those expenditures and the Current Budget is something like Two Triillon Dollars in the Red (or some astronomical figure depending upon which version you believe) but it is a huge deficit each year that has to be financed by Federal Government Debt which is an added cost on that spending.
How about all of the UK's spending on Ukraine.....ya'll reaping the benefits of that in the same ways you say the American People are doing?
That goes for every Nation forking over money, arms, etc.
How's the UK current budget doing?
Asking how long the many Nations assisting Ukraine can afford to continue to do so is a legitimate question.
We saw during Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan Wars....the longer they drag on....the more popular support falls and that translates into pressure upon politicians to consider their own exposure and then funding becomes a problem.
Ukraine is a long way from Iowa and after over two decades of War and all that cost.....maintaining support for Ukraine is going to see the same trials and tribulations over time I am betting.
I am just pointing out reality....at some point every War comes to an end.....the question is what kind of an end.....and the longer it lasts the worst the ending will probably be.
Look back to the Korean War and how that wound up....remember it was called a "Police Action" before it was called a War and ended in an Armistice just as did WWI, the War to end all Wars that one was right?
WWII morphed into the Cold War.
My money is on Ukraine.....and if they get enough support and the rest of the World figures out how to put sanctions on Russia that work....and don't harm the rest of us.....we hopefully shall see the Russians utterly whipped.
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Russian hubris remains an existential threat to Ukraine. That has not decreased, in fact at every potential point to rationally reconsider the justification of the aggression, Russia has doubled down. A cease fire in place is an invitation for round 3 of this show once Putin has rearmed his remnants and added fresh bodies to the next fray. Chechnya showed a roadmap of what Pax Russiana looks like, and it isn't pretty.
Am not a fan of the domino theory, but Putin has made explicit threats against NATO states, some of those from 1949 and some more recent ones, seems NATO is not going away any time soon. The baltic states and Finland are already common borders with Russia, the objection that Russia has to NATO membership of Ukraine. Seems inconsistent. Ukraine had not conducted any strikes into Russian territory by any known means since Russia lost 8000 men invading in 2014 against the minimal capability Ukrainian defence forces, that was around... 10% of their offensive force deployed. Following the 2014 event, Russia embarked on an "improvement" program that went backwards at every turn, yet, the manner of governance made Putin supremely confident that the next time he could teach Ukraine a lesson, and that takes us to today. Fast learners, Russia is not. Persistence, Russia gets high marks on though, they finally achieved a "win" of sorts in Chechnya through the treachery of one of the defending groups, now best mates of Putin, well known on Tik-Tok.
The probability of collapse of the RF increases daily, and the recent development of Russian military shelling their own cities, pillaging and plundering their own population while ostensibly "defending" Russia from disaffected Russians bent on developing a revolution against Putin and his cronies seems to be "deja-vu all over again", of 1917. Perhaps, DDG will get his answer. is possible, and far enough out of ordinary to be the sort of ending that occurs.
Ukraine has woken up NATO countries and the rest of the world to the point that peace only occurs when there is preparedness to defend your own country and those that you deem to be friends or important to the interests of your country. Ukraine is the one losing boots in the field, the rest of the world is cycling tax dollars into economic activity while starting to realise that they have to expend more on defence in the way of ready stocks of munitions, while taking the learning points from Russias aggression and the change to tactics that have been exhibited by the Ukrainians.
Calling time out as the tax expenditures inside each supporting country are not popular will guarantee that the next war will occur sooner than not, China has a time line problem and permitting donor frustration to arise, which always has a risk of blaming the recipient of the donations for "having to be needy", may give rise to the conditions required for the next disaster, China having a go at Taiwan. The longer that is fended off, the less likely that is to occur, China's demographics are starting to bite in the background. Delays in the invasion of Taiwan increase the ability to implement lessons learned from the Ukrainian defence against an overwhelming aggressor, for Taiwan and those countries that have intent to defend Taiwan from naked aggression.
Human history doesn't give much confidence that aggression is suddenly going to be removed from our neighbours or ourselves, and at present, the least number of boots lost comes from supporting the countries that are attacked from aggressors, until the aggressor is obliged to return to their own cage.
The pain of the tax payer is only in very small part from the support of the defenders in this war. There is more harm to international trade from sanctions that have had an effect, (it is a delayed response) and to the effect of a pandemic that was far more catastrophic economically to our world. Ukraine didn't impose sanctions, that was our (reasonable) response, and Trump never called the CoViD-19 virus the "Ukraine" virus, it was "China". Pandemic response was loopy then and remains so now, but maybe the inherent risks of a globally mobile population where there has always been a high probability of emergent communicable diseases is better understood today than before. Quarantine does function, but is disruptive, and as the first signal is so often missed, it results in a disruption. Rapid detection and contact tracing may help avoid a repeat of the own goal that we had for the last 3 years. Climate change is impacting our economy directly and by the cost of change. It could have been a positive, and yet it has mainly been a cost burden as it is human nature to have graft 'n corruption of initiatives, someone would be selling fake or plundered lifejackets at the biblical flood.
The greatest risk of US troops & taxpayers being in a hot war arise from donation fatigue to those that are prepared to fight the aggressor nation that happens to be up at this time.
IMHO.
Am not a fan of the domino theory, but Putin has made explicit threats against NATO states, some of those from 1949 and some more recent ones, seems NATO is not going away any time soon. The baltic states and Finland are already common borders with Russia, the objection that Russia has to NATO membership of Ukraine. Seems inconsistent. Ukraine had not conducted any strikes into Russian territory by any known means since Russia lost 8000 men invading in 2014 against the minimal capability Ukrainian defence forces, that was around... 10% of their offensive force deployed. Following the 2014 event, Russia embarked on an "improvement" program that went backwards at every turn, yet, the manner of governance made Putin supremely confident that the next time he could teach Ukraine a lesson, and that takes us to today. Fast learners, Russia is not. Persistence, Russia gets high marks on though, they finally achieved a "win" of sorts in Chechnya through the treachery of one of the defending groups, now best mates of Putin, well known on Tik-Tok.
The probability of collapse of the RF increases daily, and the recent development of Russian military shelling their own cities, pillaging and plundering their own population while ostensibly "defending" Russia from disaffected Russians bent on developing a revolution against Putin and his cronies seems to be "deja-vu all over again", of 1917. Perhaps, DDG will get his answer. is possible, and far enough out of ordinary to be the sort of ending that occurs.
Ukraine has woken up NATO countries and the rest of the world to the point that peace only occurs when there is preparedness to defend your own country and those that you deem to be friends or important to the interests of your country. Ukraine is the one losing boots in the field, the rest of the world is cycling tax dollars into economic activity while starting to realise that they have to expend more on defence in the way of ready stocks of munitions, while taking the learning points from Russias aggression and the change to tactics that have been exhibited by the Ukrainians.
Calling time out as the tax expenditures inside each supporting country are not popular will guarantee that the next war will occur sooner than not, China has a time line problem and permitting donor frustration to arise, which always has a risk of blaming the recipient of the donations for "having to be needy", may give rise to the conditions required for the next disaster, China having a go at Taiwan. The longer that is fended off, the less likely that is to occur, China's demographics are starting to bite in the background. Delays in the invasion of Taiwan increase the ability to implement lessons learned from the Ukrainian defence against an overwhelming aggressor, for Taiwan and those countries that have intent to defend Taiwan from naked aggression.
Human history doesn't give much confidence that aggression is suddenly going to be removed from our neighbours or ourselves, and at present, the least number of boots lost comes from supporting the countries that are attacked from aggressors, until the aggressor is obliged to return to their own cage.
The pain of the tax payer is only in very small part from the support of the defenders in this war. There is more harm to international trade from sanctions that have had an effect, (it is a delayed response) and to the effect of a pandemic that was far more catastrophic economically to our world. Ukraine didn't impose sanctions, that was our (reasonable) response, and Trump never called the CoViD-19 virus the "Ukraine" virus, it was "China". Pandemic response was loopy then and remains so now, but maybe the inherent risks of a globally mobile population where there has always been a high probability of emergent communicable diseases is better understood today than before. Quarantine does function, but is disruptive, and as the first signal is so often missed, it results in a disruption. Rapid detection and contact tracing may help avoid a repeat of the own goal that we had for the last 3 years. Climate change is impacting our economy directly and by the cost of change. It could have been a positive, and yet it has mainly been a cost burden as it is human nature to have graft 'n corruption of initiatives, someone would be selling fake or plundered lifejackets at the biblical flood.
The greatest risk of US troops & taxpayers being in a hot war arise from donation fatigue to those that are prepared to fight the aggressor nation that happens to be up at this time.
IMHO.
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...and in Vietnam there was a draft, so unless the drafting government can provide a clear and understandable reason for drafting, there's no reason to expect support to do anything other than fall
as for calling the Korean war a "police action" I didn't know that, but I read once that Vietnam was called an "armed conflict" and not a "war" because only Congress can approve entering a war, so calling it something else was a legislative loophole. Whether or not that's true I don't know. I guess I need to read up a little history there
War is horrific, sickening and costly. But as wars go, the free world - primarily USA and Western Europe in this case - have less downside and more upside in supporting Ukraine beat the Russians (a genuine existential security threat) than any other post WW2 conflict - certainly including the "war on terror" which was pretty much all downside and served only to make the underlying problems worse at huge cost in lives and treasure. The dollar cost of this war, whilst considerable, is a drop in the bucket in terms of the debt and instability built up over decades of irresponsible, inneffective and counterproductive leveraging and financialisation in the broader economy, and as SASless points out is in may ways a better investment in domestic economic productive capacity than most of the other things that governments and central banks have tried. In terms of lives lost, that is utterly, abominably tragic, but at this stage that is Ukraine's cost, and thus surely their choice.
There is no path forward for the current Russian regime in the civilised world. The free world has ultimately and uncomfortably realised this. What Russia will be in the future is anyone's guess, but the future of central and Eastern Europe has been and will continue to be determined by those countries themselves, in collaboration with their allies, and that is precisely in the interests of America and the rest of the free world.
There is no path forward for the current Russian regime in the civilised world. The free world has ultimately and uncomfortably realised this. What Russia will be in the future is anyone's guess, but the future of central and Eastern Europe has been and will continue to be determined by those countries themselves, in collaboration with their allies, and that is precisely in the interests of America and the rest of the free world.
I have seen from multiple sources who are well connected and who should know. Most of the armamemts supplied to the Ukranians, especially by the US such as 155mm artilery shells and missles are old stock that would have been sent for destruction in the near future anyway, a process that is quite expensive. So the USA has actually save a bucket load of money in disposal costs as the Ukraininans have done it for them.
It also seems that the Ukranians have proscecuted the war in a meticulous and highly nuanced and sophisticated manner. Could this be that the Ukraininans are the best military students in history and have learned incredibly fast since 2014. It seems they may be getting very close advice and help from other forces at a tactical and strategic level. Could this be the ultimate case of working from home by the US and NATO military?
It also seems that the Ukranians have proscecuted the war in a meticulous and highly nuanced and sophisticated manner. Could this be that the Ukraininans are the best military students in history and have learned incredibly fast since 2014. It seems they may be getting very close advice and help from other forces at a tactical and strategic level. Could this be the ultimate case of working from home by the US and NATO military?
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SASless I understand that, but some people do not seem to understand that when a country says they are spending XYZ billions on Ukraine the majority is spent in the donor country and not actually in Ukraine. In doing so it stimulates the economy by increasing home production and tax’s paid on them.
I cannot see Russia winning when the west are finally sending in the latest armour etc while Russia appears to be trying to generate the likes off
I cannot see Russia winning when the west are finally sending in the latest armour etc while Russia appears to be trying to generate the likes off
...as for calling the Korean war a "police action" I didn't know that, but I read once that Vietnam was called an "armed conflict" and not a "war" because only Congress can approve entering a war, so calling it something else was a legislative loophole. Whether or not that's true I don't know. I guess I need to read up a little history there
As long as the UN accepts the corruption of the charter by refusing to apply the last sentence of Article 27(3), we will continue to aide and abet aggressor nations, on any and all sides by breaking the one shop that was supposed to be a solution to the problem in the first place. It remains irrational that countries that no longer attempt empire building or colonial exploitation deliberately refuse to be fettered by adhering to the spirit and intent of the charter, while bemoaning the other side for their aggression. It is further proof that Fermi's Paradox should have included planet earth in the geographic domain to find intelligent life, there is precious little adult supervision by our lords and masters, and we keep voting for these billy goats.
"But where is everybody?"
Drakes equation would give #DIV/0! if planet earth is included in the equation,
, the fraction of habitable planets whereon intelligent life actually appears would be zero;
Spoiler
is the number of technologically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy, and 
, the rate of formation of stars in the galaxy;
, the fraction of those stars with planetary systems;
, the number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for organic life;
, the fraction of those suitable planets whereon organic life actually appears;
, the fraction of civilizations that reach the technological level whereby detectable signals may be dispatched; and
, the length of time that those civilizations dispatch their signals.UNSC Resolution 84 (1950)
Spoiler
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Solovyov could be onto something here, instead of Russia, Ukraine should give all Russian towns and. village’s across the border 6 hours to evacuate before they will be shelled… the mass panic that causes with what else has been going on across the border will be priceless, cause maximum panic and fleeing from a simple lie as to what will happen.
From the New York Times today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/03/w...-car-bomb.html
A car bomb killed at least one person on Friday night in Russian-occupied southern Ukraine, according to Ukrainian and Russian officials, highlighting the war’s reach far beyond the front lines as Ukrainian partisans aim to undermine their occupiers.
The blast occurred in Mykhailivka, a town in Ukraine’s Zaporizhzhia region. The vehicle targeted was carrying “four supporters of the Kremlin,” said Ivan Fedorov, the Ukrainian mayor in exile of the Russian-occupied city of Melitopol, about 30 miles south, on the Telegram messaging app.
Vladimir Rogov, a Russian occupation official in the Zaporizhzhia region, confirmed the attack in a Telegram post, saying the bomb killed a “local businessman” named Sergei Didovoduk and injured two others. On Saturday, he said that the authorities had opened an investigation.
The attack comes as Ukrainian forces are preparing for a highly anticipated counteroffensive that analysts believe will take place in southern Ukraine. Kyiv’s troops will probably aim to sever the land routes that connect Russia to Crimea, which Moscow illegally annexed in 2014, according to analysts and Western officials.
The blast occurred in Mykhailivka, a town in Ukraine’s Zaporizhzhia region. The vehicle targeted was carrying “four supporters of the Kremlin,” said Ivan Fedorov, the Ukrainian mayor in exile of the Russian-occupied city of Melitopol, about 30 miles south, on the Telegram messaging app.
Vladimir Rogov, a Russian occupation official in the Zaporizhzhia region, confirmed the attack in a Telegram post, saying the bomb killed a “local businessman” named Sergei Didovoduk and injured two others. On Saturday, he said that the authorities had opened an investigation.
The attack comes as Ukrainian forces are preparing for a highly anticipated counteroffensive that analysts believe will take place in southern Ukraine. Kyiv’s troops will probably aim to sever the land routes that connect Russia to Crimea, which Moscow illegally annexed in 2014, according to analysts and Western officials.
Daily dose of vatnik propaganda.
How nice to receive a car in exchange for a husband. Especially a nice japanese car from confiscated stocks to which you can't get any spares or maintenance.
How nice to receive a car in exchange for a husband. Especially a nice japanese car from confiscated stocks to which you can't get any spares or maintenance.
Russians using apparently white phosphorus against their OWN city.
Tells all there is to know about Russians.
Tells all there is to know about Russians.
More footage of Russian artillery shelling their own city. Geolocated.
Imagine waking up in your bed being shelled by your local artillery brigade with incendiary ammo.
Imagine waking up in your bed being shelled by your local artillery brigade with incendiary ammo.
Russians using apparently white phosphorus against their OWN city.
Tells all there is to know about Russians.
https://twitter.com/igorsushko/statu...95209762963456
Tells all there is to know about Russians.
https://twitter.com/igorsushko/statu...95209762963456
Putin sending in Wagners mercenaries would be the icing on the cake, they sure won hearts and minds in the east so far but to be fair, the Russian regular forces did their fair share of murders and rapes of the citizens in the purportedly annexed regions of Ukraine, to what would be Russian loving locals.
Last edited by fdr; 4th Jun 2023 at 06:17.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Russia launched a wave of air attacks on Ukraine early on Sunday, with air defence systems repelling all missiles and drones on their approach to Kyiv, the city’s military officials said.
“According to preliminary information, not a single air target reached the capital,” Serhiy Popko, the head of the military administration, posted online early on Sunday. “Air defence destroyed everything that was heading towards the city already at their distant approaches.”
Reuters witnesses reported hearing several blasts in the Kyiv region, but not in the city, from what sounded like air defence systems hitting targets.
Local officials have now reported a total of 36 missiles and drones were shot down in and around the city.
There were unverified Ukrainian social media reports of blasts heard in Kryvyi Rih in southern Ukraine, near the central city of Kropyvnitskyi, and in the north-eastern region of Sumy. There was no immediate official information about the reports.
“According to preliminary information, not a single air target reached the capital,” Serhiy Popko, the head of the military administration, posted online early on Sunday. “Air defence destroyed everything that was heading towards the city already at their distant approaches.”
Reuters witnesses reported hearing several blasts in the Kyiv region, but not in the city, from what sounded like air defence systems hitting targets.
Local officials have now reported a total of 36 missiles and drones were shot down in and around the city.
There were unverified Ukrainian social media reports of blasts heard in Kryvyi Rih in southern Ukraine, near the central city of Kropyvnitskyi, and in the north-eastern region of Sumy. There was no immediate official information about the reports.
Last edited by ORAC; 4th Jun 2023 at 06:22.