Ukraine War Thread Part 2
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French SCALP-EG* cruise-missiles promised
From the DT
France will follow Britain’s lead by supplying Ukraine with longer-range missiles days after the UK’s Storm Shadow munitions were used to devastating effect against Russian forces behind the front line. Emmanuel Macron, the French president, has confirmed: “We have decided to send over and above that, new munitions, new missiles that have a range that allows Ukraine to resist and to lead this (upcoming) counteroffensive.”
No numbers, no time-line, however if they give a decent number, that should really free-up the Ukrainians in their targeting possibilities
Zelensky has had a very productive visit to D/F/GB. Maybe the Pope gave him a holy bone to wish him God Speed to his just and virtuous enterprise
*SCALP-EG = French-built Storm Shadow
France will follow Britain’s lead by supplying Ukraine with longer-range missiles days after the UK’s Storm Shadow munitions were used to devastating effect against Russian forces behind the front line. Emmanuel Macron, the French president, has confirmed: “We have decided to send over and above that, new munitions, new missiles that have a range that allows Ukraine to resist and to lead this (upcoming) counteroffensive.”
No numbers, no time-line, however if they give a decent number, that should really free-up the Ukrainians in their targeting possibilities
Zelensky has had a very productive visit to D/F/GB. Maybe the Pope gave him a holy bone to wish him God Speed to his just and virtuous enterprise
*SCALP-EG = French-built Storm Shadow
Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 16th May 2023 at 13:38.
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Fortunately I am not RC, or excommunication would be the mildest punishment on offer.
Back to the Special Military Operation.
Whether that event is to be welcomed or not rather depends on what comes next. When Lukashenko 'retires' or dies where does the country go? Is there a nominated successor with a strong enough powerbase to maintain dictatorial control? Does it quietly accept direct rule from Moscow with any troublemakers dealt with in the customary fashion? Or could public opposition be a trigger for serious unrest with the people looking enviously westward? With Putin's authority seemingly draining away over the Ukraine debacle none of this seems clear at all.
IM
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I do wonder if they have asked the Ukrainian Embassy to remove their flag as well? Surely an Embassy grounds are the responsibilty of the country and not China, dictating what can and can't be done in those grounds is getting into dodgy territory.
What I found
What I found
The best place to find answers to the above stories, and the question overall, is with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961.
Within this convention, Articles 21-25 have to do with embassies, though more specifically diplomatic missions as a whole.
Article 21
1. The receiving State shall either facilitate the acquisition on its territory, in accordance with its laws, by the sending State of premises necessary for its mission or assist the latter in obtaining accommodation in some other way.
2. It shall also, where necessary, assist missions in obtaining suitable accommodation for their members.
Article 22
1. The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.
2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.
3. The premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of transport of the mission shall be immune from search, requisition, attachment or execution.
Article 23
1. The sending State and the head of the mission shall be exempt from all national, regional or municipal dues and taxes in respect of the premises of the mission, whether owned or leased, other than such as represent payment for specific services rendered.
2. The exemption from taxation referred to in this article shall not apply to such dues and taxes payable under the law of the receiving State by persons contracting with the sending State or the head of the mission.
Article 24
The archives and documents of the mission shall be inviolable at any time and wherever they may be.
Article 25
The receiving State shall accord full facilities for the performance of the functions of the mission.
Above, you will notice I bolded a few phrases, all in Article 22, which have to do with mission sovereignty. Let’s break it down:
1. The premises of a mission shall be inviolable
Nobody can enter the mission without permission- this includes the host country
2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity
If you visit the U.S. Embassy, especially in more dangerous parts of the world, you will see the mission’s exterior guarded by local nationals. The inside will have a marine detachment, but the outside will be local police or military.
In my experience, the words “protect… mission against any damage and to prevent any disturbance of peace… or impairment of its dignity” have been interpreted differently depending on the situation.
Within this convention, Articles 21-25 have to do with embassies, though more specifically diplomatic missions as a whole.
Article 21
1. The receiving State shall either facilitate the acquisition on its territory, in accordance with its laws, by the sending State of premises necessary for its mission or assist the latter in obtaining accommodation in some other way.
2. It shall also, where necessary, assist missions in obtaining suitable accommodation for their members.
Article 22
1. The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.
2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.
3. The premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of transport of the mission shall be immune from search, requisition, attachment or execution.
Article 23
1. The sending State and the head of the mission shall be exempt from all national, regional or municipal dues and taxes in respect of the premises of the mission, whether owned or leased, other than such as represent payment for specific services rendered.
2. The exemption from taxation referred to in this article shall not apply to such dues and taxes payable under the law of the receiving State by persons contracting with the sending State or the head of the mission.
Article 24
The archives and documents of the mission shall be inviolable at any time and wherever they may be.
Article 25
The receiving State shall accord full facilities for the performance of the functions of the mission.
Above, you will notice I bolded a few phrases, all in Article 22, which have to do with mission sovereignty. Let’s break it down:
1. The premises of a mission shall be inviolable
Nobody can enter the mission without permission- this includes the host country
2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity
If you visit the U.S. Embassy, especially in more dangerous parts of the world, you will see the mission’s exterior guarded by local nationals. The inside will have a marine detachment, but the outside will be local police or military.
In my experience, the words “protect… mission against any damage and to prevent any disturbance of peace… or impairment of its dignity” have been interpreted differently depending on the situation.
I refer you to Russia, Ukraine, and possible unpleasantries for the view from Moscow as to the next steps in the formation of the Union State. IM
But it's all just theatre.
IM
Fair points indeed, but I believe Belarus may prove to be the exception. And I am convinced that Moscow is trying to make sure of that. The Union State idea has been knocking around for a long long time, and a change at the top in Minsk might be just the catalyst needed to make it happen. And an ideal success story for VVP at which point he can bow out gracefully having anointed his successor. Much as BNE did at the turn of the Millenium. But it's all just theatre. IM
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Second recorded loss of a Spartan, surprisingly there are so few considering the numbers and their use at the front.
I have only put the link in quotes as there are sadly really badly burnt bodies in the rear, as usual BEWARE.
I have only put the link in quotes as there are sadly really badly burnt bodies in the rear, as usual BEWARE.
Fair points indeed, but I believe Belarus may prove to be the exception. And I am convinced that Moscow is trying to make sure of that. The Union State idea has been knocking around for a long long time, and a change at the top in Minsk might be just the catalyst needed to make it happen. And an ideal success story for VVP at which point he can bow out gracefully having anointed his successor. Much as BNE did at the turn of the Millenium.
But it's all just theatre.
IM
But it's all just theatre.
IM
I doubt that Belarus collapsing would have any significant impact. That's just going on recent history. My personal view is that we in the west put too much store in people wanting democracy. Many former Soviet states struggled to become democratic (not least Ukraine). Easy to suppose that opposition to a government equals a desire to become a true democracy. Many Russians and Belorussians may oppose their leader but that doesn't mean they want democracy.
The same was true in the Warsaw pact states. I know this first hand as my wife is East German. If you and your parents have grown up not knowing what democracy is then it may not be something seen to be of value. Many Russians I've known seemed content with their lot. The impression I have always had is that they value strength and power in a leader far more than democracy.
The same was true in the Warsaw pact states. I know this first hand as my wife is East German. If you and your parents have grown up not knowing what democracy is then it may not be something seen to be of value. Many Russians I've known seemed content with their lot. The impression I have always had is that they value strength and power in a leader far more than democracy.
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That is very much my experience in dealing with Russians who have immigrated. And those are the ones who have left ! I would add Russians in the last century have gone through a level of deprevation that no one in the west can relate to. They have grown up with stories from the grandparents etc. With that perspective they see things as not that bad and it has been many times worse.
Last edited by 20driver; 17th May 2023 at 01:29. Reason: spelling
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Russia may indeed have damaged a Patriot system.
Fair points indeed, but I believe Belarus may prove to be the exception. And I am convinced that Moscow is trying to make sure of that. The Union State idea has been knocking around for a long long time, and a change at the top in Minsk might be just the catalyst needed to make it happen. And an ideal success story for VVP at which point he can bow out gracefully having anointed his successor. Much as BNE did at the turn of the Millenium. IM
The unlawful leader of Belarus is the one that permitted the criminal actions of the incumbent of the Kremlin to be carried out from the territory of Belarus. When this thing gets to the wash up stage, Belarus owes Ukraine for the actions of their dictator. The tolerance of Ukraine towards the antics of the Belarus dictator is amazing, they had every right under international law to respond to the aggression being permitted by Belarus, and chose not to.
On other matters, while in the old days we used to expend a great deal of effort to get BDA and intel, today, we just have to go to social media... cuts both ways, the war crimes get covered, and may never see closure, and we give the attacker info on the effectiveness of their tactics... all in all, not a good deal for the ham in the sandwich.
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I doubt that Belarus collapsing would have any significant impact. That's just going on recent history. My personal view is that we in the west put too much store in people wanting democracy. Many former Soviet states struggled to become democratic (not least Ukraine). Easy to suppose that opposition to a government equals a desire to become a true democracy. Many Russians and Belorussians may oppose their leader but that doesn't mean they want democracy.
The same was true in the Warsaw pact states. I know this first hand as my wife is East German. If you and your parents have grown up not knowing what democracy is then it may not be something seen to be of value. Many Russians I've known seemed content with their lot. The impression I have always had is that they value strength and power in a leader far more than democracy.
The same was true in the Warsaw pact states. I know this first hand as my wife is East German. If you and your parents have grown up not knowing what democracy is then it may not be something seen to be of value. Many Russians I've known seemed content with their lot. The impression I have always had is that they value strength and power in a leader far more than democracy.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
He also goes on about nuking England again and feeling sorry for Scotland - but he doesn’t worry about radiation because of his age…
Propagandists on Vladimir Solovyov's show bemoaned Russia's internal divisions and the lack of young people, which consequently led to older people serving on the frontlines. Solovyov claimed that Russians in their 60s are in tremendous physical shape.
Propagandists on Vladimir Solovyov's show bemoaned Russia's internal divisions and the lack of young people, which consequently led to older people serving on the frontlines. Solovyov claimed that Russians in their 60s are in tremendous physical shape.
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These people want putting up against a wall... or jailing for a very long time then expelling from the country.