Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF
Originally Posted by Red Line Entry
Currently, 3.3% of the RAF is BAME (source at Linky), whereas across the UK population, 14% are BAME. So the fact is WE DO SELECT BY APPEARANCE
Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
I'm afraid that is a gross over-simplification of the argument. Just because 14% of the UK population is BAME, does not mean that the selection is done on appearance. I do not know the statistics for BAME aptitude scores, but I do know that aptitude score distribution curves are very different between male and female. That suggests that either the aptitude tests are sexist, or there is a physiological difference between the sexes. We should be selecting the best people for the job, and if that only means taking the best at [insert characteristic here], and that excludes other parts of the population, then so be it.
”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.
put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
Originally Posted by [email protected]
With the right amount of swagger and testosterone, the words don't even have to leave your mouth - people just know you are part of the two-winged master race
But...back on topic...
Did you just assume that all of the two-winged master race have testosterone?
Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
or the aptitude was designed for 18-21 year old males as the “norm”, a long time ago and haven’t been upgraded…
”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.
put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.
put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
Originally Posted by PA28_CFI
Please tell us how a battery of tests designed to measure hand-eye coordination, spatial orientation, mental reasoning, prioritisation of tasks etc can be designed 'purely for 18-21 year old males'?
Would you add a few cultural awareness questions into the mix, you know, to make it really relevant to aviation?
We are all ears....
Would you add a few cultural awareness questions into the mix, you know, to make it really relevant to aviation?
We are all ears....
Aside from the inevitable Pilot bias, I wonder what the Test Battery would be for ATC? Talk to 6+ people at once whilst keeping track of all their responses, via RT and Landline, whilst keeping visual perception of where 4+ of them are located and the spacial risks they may be facing?
I loved my job!
I loved my job!
MPN11 - I think the tests cover all bases and, depending on your score, you will be offered anything from pilot to PI. They are very different to what I and others went through 40 years ago.
I have flown SAROps with male, female and TG pilots and trained pilot students of white, Asian, African and Arab descent - it doesn't matter a toss what colour, creed, religion or sexual preference a pilot is, if they can do the job they have a right to be in the air.
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Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY
Anyone stop to consider that BAME is statistically under represented as pilots because:
a) They don't want to be pilots.
b) Family and cultural pressures steer them to more "respectable" occupations like doctors, solicitors, accountants or surgeons.
a) They don't want to be pilots.
b) Family and cultural pressures steer them to more "respectable" occupations like doctors, solicitors, accountants or surgeons.
But it is not about "they" plural, it is about "he" or "she" as individuals.
Unless a particular individual has been mysteriously affected by personal systematic exclusion, you have no case.
Unless a particular individual has been mysteriously affected by personal systematic exclusion, you have no case.
Aside from the inevitable Pilot bias, I wonder what the Test Battery would be for ATC? Talk to 6+ people at once whilst keeping track of all their responses, via RT and Landline, whilst keeping visual perception of where 4+ of them are located and the spacial risks they may be facing?
It didn't quite work like that but there was a short visit and some time on a console (+ time in the bar) - it did improve the pass rate.
Originally Posted by MarcK
The argument that women "don't want to be pilots" (or doctors, or lawyers, or...) is just so wrong as to be discriminatory. The perception that they "don't want to be" is largely based on systematic exclusion in the past, so one can point and say "see, there aren't many woman pilots".
BAME potential pilot: I really really want to be an RAF pilot and serve my country. I'm prepared to attack enemies of the state, even if that means dropping bombs on my ancestral home, BUT.....I don't think they'd welcome me, so I won't bother applying!
RAF HR Dept. (war fighting, not for the use of): Despite the fact we have in the region of 65 applications for every 1 pilot job, not enough are from the BAME community. This needs to change, so we'll send a non-white male to the Top Gun premiere!
BAME potential pilot: Wow! There was a non-white female pilot at the Top Gun premiere last night. That changes everything, the RAF must be an inclusive employer, I'll apply straight away.
RAF Recruiting Website: THIS ROLE IS CLOSED FOR APPLICATIONS!
Duty rumour on pilot forums: The RAF pilot role will be closed for applications for 2 years potentially.
BAME potential pilot: BUGGER!
RAF top brass: We might of played ourselves a little here!
RAF HR Dept. (war fighting, not for the use of): Despite the fact we have in the region of 65 applications for every 1 pilot job, not enough are from the BAME community. This needs to change, so we'll send a non-white male to the Top Gun premiere!
BAME potential pilot: Wow! There was a non-white female pilot at the Top Gun premiere last night. That changes everything, the RAF must be an inclusive employer, I'll apply straight away.
RAF Recruiting Website: THIS ROLE IS CLOSED FOR APPLICATIONS!
Duty rumour on pilot forums: The RAF pilot role will be closed for applications for 2 years potentially.
BAME potential pilot: BUGGER!
RAF top brass: We might of played ourselves a little here!
Quote:
A "real" pilot will tell you in their opening sentence ;-)
With the right amount of swagger and testosterone, the words don't even have to leave your mouth - people just know you are part of the two-winged master race
A "real" pilot will tell you in their opening sentence ;-)
With the right amount of swagger and testosterone, the words don't even have to leave your mouth - people just know you are part of the two-winged master race
Constantly deluding themselves, when they are just another weapon system to be used and directed by the true master race!
Cunning Artificer
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I once upset the pilots in the crew room by stating the obvious truth that the RAF was the only service that sent their officers off to fight and die for their country, while the ground staff went down the pub and drank all the beer.
Possibly not quite the case if Ivan had started chucking sunshine at us, of course.
Possibly not quite the case if Ivan had started chucking sunshine at us, of course.
