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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

Old 5th May 2022, 12:24
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red Line Entry View Post
Currently, 3.3% of the RAF is BAME (source at Linky), whereas across the UK population, 14% are BAME. So the fact is WE DO SELECT BY APPEARANCE
I'm afraid that is a gross over-simplification of the argument. Just because 14% of the UK population is BAME, does not mean that the selection is done on appearance. I do not know the statistics for BAME aptitude scores, but I do know that aptitude score distribution curves are very different between male and female. That suggests that either the aptitude tests are sexist, or there is a physiological difference between the sexes. We should be selecting the best people for the job, and if that only means taking the best at [insert characteristic here], and that excludes other parts of the population, then so be it.
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Old 5th May 2022, 13:24
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew View Post
I'm afraid that is a gross over-simplification of the argument. Just because 14% of the UK population is BAME, does not mean that the selection is done on appearance. I do not know the statistics for BAME aptitude scores, but I do know that aptitude score distribution curves are very different between male and female. That suggests that either the aptitude tests are sexist, or there is a physiological difference between the sexes. We should be selecting the best people for the job, and if that only means taking the best at [insert characteristic here], and that excludes other parts of the population, then so be it.
or the aptitude was designed for 18-21 year old males as the “norm”, a long time ago and haven’t been upgraded…

”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.

put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
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Old 5th May 2022, 13:43
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
With the right amount of swagger and testosterone, the words don't even have to leave your mouth - people just know you are part of the two-winged master race


But...back on topic...

Did you just assume that all of the two-winged master race have testosterone?

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Old 5th May 2022, 13:53
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Did you just assume that all of the two-winged master race have testosterone?
Yes, it's just the levels that vary from the cockpit to the box-office
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Old 5th May 2022, 15:11
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
or the aptitude was designed for 18-21 year old males as the “norm”, a long time ago and haven’t been upgraded…

”best” is generally subjective, and absolutely subject to conservative bias, sunk cost fallacies, and cultural barriers to change.

put it this way, if F-35 were the only basis for selection, the test would be different to selection for GR7/FA2…
Incorrect. The aptitude tests are regularly reviewed and updated. They are also aircraft agnostic, so your last statement is incorrect. These are your prejudices that are showing.
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Old 5th May 2022, 16:06
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PA28_CFI View Post
Please tell us how a battery of tests designed to measure hand-eye coordination, spatial orientation, mental reasoning, prioritisation of tasks etc can be designed 'purely for 18-21 year old males'?

Would you add a few cultural awareness questions into the mix, you know, to make it really relevant to aviation?

We are all ears....
Possibly they are the ones who have done a lot of practicing of those skills thanks to other biases before they arrived?
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Old 5th May 2022, 16:08
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the comms should have started with People.
I can see both points of view here. In the big scheme of things here, who cares.

Good night.

FK10
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Old 5th May 2022, 16:11
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Aside from the inevitable Pilot bias, I wonder what the Test Battery would be for ATC? Talk to 6+ people at once whilst keeping track of all their responses, via RT and Landline, whilst keeping visual perception of where 4+ of them are located and the spacial risks they may be facing?

I loved my job!
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Old 5th May 2022, 17:03
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MPN11 - I think the tests cover all bases and, depending on your score, you will be offered anything from pilot to PI. They are very different to what I and others went through 40 years ago.
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Old 5th May 2022, 17:05
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I have flown SAROps with male, female and TG pilots and trained pilot students of white, Asian, African and Arab descent - it doesn't matter a toss what colour, creed, religion or sexual preference a pilot is, if they can do the job they have a right to be in the air.
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Old 5th May 2022, 19:28
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Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY View Post
Anyone stop to consider that BAME is statistically under represented as pilots because:

a) They don't want to be pilots.
b) Family and cultural pressures steer them to more "respectable" occupations like doctors, solicitors, accountants or surgeons.
The argument that women "don't want to be pilots" (or doctors, or lawyers, or...) is just so wrong as to be discriminatory. The perception that they "don't want to be" is largely based on systematic exclusion in the past, so one can point and say "see, there aren't many woman pilots".
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Old 5th May 2022, 19:37
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But it is not about "they" plural, it is about "he" or "she" as individuals.
Unless a particular individual has been mysteriously affected by personal systematic exclusion, you have no case.
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Old 5th May 2022, 19:45
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Aside from the inevitable Pilot bias, I wonder what the Test Battery would be for ATC? Talk to 6+ people at once whilst keeping track of all their responses, via RT and Landline, whilst keeping visual perception of where 4+ of them are located and the spacial risks they may be facing?
In the early 90s there was a problem with the aptitude tests for Fighter controllers (specifically what are now called Weapons Controllers) OC SFC at Boulmer said that he just needed them in the bar for a night or 2 and he would be able to grade them.

It didn't quite work like that but there was a short visit and some time on a console (+ time in the bar) - it did improve the pass rate.
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Old 5th May 2022, 20:15
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What a damned shame that Tom Cruise’ Maverick is so bliddy white and so bliddy male!

Tone deaf or what?

Last edited by Tandemrotor; 5th May 2022 at 20:29.
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:24
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MarcK View Post
The argument that women "don't want to be pilots" (or doctors, or lawyers, or...) is just so wrong as to be discriminatory. The perception that they "don't want to be" is largely based on systematic exclusion in the past, so one can point and say "see, there aren't many woman pilots".
Evidence? What has happened to the numbers of females applying for pilot positions in egalitarian societies?
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:46
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On this topic, Dilbert is doing diversity this week........













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Old 6th May 2022, 09:19
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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BAME potential pilot: I really really want to be an RAF pilot and serve my country. I'm prepared to attack enemies of the state, even if that means dropping bombs on my ancestral home, BUT.....I don't think they'd welcome me, so I won't bother applying!

RAF HR Dept. (war fighting, not for the use of): Despite the fact we have in the region of 65 applications for every 1 pilot job, not enough are from the BAME community. This needs to change, so we'll send a non-white male to the Top Gun premiere!

BAME potential pilot: Wow! There was a non-white female pilot at the Top Gun premiere last night. That changes everything, the RAF must be an inclusive employer, I'll apply straight away.

RAF Recruiting Website: THIS ROLE IS CLOSED FOR APPLICATIONS!

Duty rumour on pilot forums: The RAF pilot role will be closed for applications for 2 years potentially.

BAME potential pilot: BUGGER!

RAF top brass: We might of played ourselves a little here!

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Old 6th May 2022, 09:47
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
A "real" pilot will tell you in their opening sentence ;-)
With the right amount of swagger and testosterone, the words don't even have to leave your mouth - people just know you are part of the two-winged master race
Constantly deluding themselves, when they are just another weapon system to be used and directed by the true master race!
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Old 6th May 2022, 10:41
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Constantly deluding themselves, when they are just another weapon system to be used and directed by the true master race!
but the ladies/gents/insert non binary status as required, love a good looking weapon
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Old 6th May 2022, 19:13
  #100 (permalink)  
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I once upset the pilots in the crew room by stating the obvious truth that the RAF was the only service that sent their officers off to fight and die for their country, while the ground staff went down the pub and drank all the beer.

Possibly not quite the case if Ivan had started chucking sunshine at us, of course.
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