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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

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Discrimination and Prejudice alive and well in the RAF

Old 3rd May 2022, 19:43
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What utter horse poo. WE DO NOT SELECT BY APPEARANCE - selection is via 5 things:

1. Application and being inside the required selection criteria (educational quals, age and fitness).
2. Computer Based Aptitude Testing (CBAT) that looks to select the very best that will likely pass the early stages of flying training. Some females claim that the test is white male biased - little do they know that the head psychologist that sets and runs the CBAT batteries is a female from a mixed heritage. So that kind of sinks that criticism.
3. Leadership exercises - the good old hangar exercises and some group/solo exercises.
4. Interview - normally about 20 minutes or so. There are males and females doing that and also from varied backgrounds.
5. Medical - check of medical fitness and also anthropology (ie. Body measurement) to ensure they fit in the Service’s aircraft.

So, the claim that they are selected on appearance is totally bogus.

Why do I think that we get fewer applying that are not white and male? Firstly, much of the ethnic minority are still allied to the countries that they or their parents came from - so for some they are still building an allegiance to serve (which will come). For some, their foreign cultures feel incompatible to what we ask Service Pers to do. Some suffer from poor education due to wider culture issues in the UK and how multi-ethnic integration has been stifled by not mixing the population (which can be seen in areas that are very much ethnically dominated above the national average, or vice-versa where the white population are well over represented). Some of the recent conflicts have seen some caught between their religious beliefs and where those conflicts have been fought (and probably discouraged by their religious leaders).

Like all things, you can’t force this. If you set up the right environment then they will come - females and multi-ethnic backgrounds. But if you force it too hard, then you just run the risk of upsetting just about everyone and putting lots off! Finally, like LJ hinted at, you won’t see every Profession reflecting society, that is plain daft, just like we are unlikely to see it reflected in the staff for midwifery, ethnic restaurants or beauty treatment. There are some jobs that are more attractive to certain groups of people.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 19:57
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The RAF figures are low but overall at 10% doesn’t look too bad to me. Out of interest I wonder how many BAME members are actually eligible to apply?

In my limited time in the service (33 years) some of the worst examples of intolerance (the only ones I saw) were between BAME and BAME.

By the way Mrs deG is BAME and hates the term.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 20:17
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Yup, as for ‘no role models’ - plenty of examples like from WW1 then the first black Pilot was Sergeant William Robinson Clarke who flew RE8s on the Western Front in 1917. In WW2 then there were many famous Officer Aircrew like Philip Ulric Cross DFC, Cy Grant, Johnny Smythe, Emanuel Adjeniyi Thomas, David Abiodun Oguntoye, Arthur Wint (not only a Pilot but also a Gold Medal winner in the London Olympics) and Errol Walton Barrow - there were many more less famous. Then more recently you have Trevor Edwards, ex-RAF Regt and later combat ready Jaguar Pilot. On the Jag fleet there was also a Jag QWI from Asian heritage (seen in many a poster and news article). We have the women of the ATA, then the RAFVR women pilots that received their full RAF Wings in 1952/1953. Then the first female Air Quartermaster, the first full-time RAF Aircrew to get combat ready, was Pat Magill (nee Howard) in the late 1960s and then became the first female officer Air Loadmaster in 1974. Then we have the continual intake of females into the Flying Branches (now Aircrew Profession) since 1989 onwards - with ‘firsts’ (many incorrectly) claimed by the RAF in massive PR releases.

So the role models are out there if you choose to look for them.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 20:26
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PS. I should also add that many from multi-ethnic backgrounds do not have the residency or UK nationality requirements to hold the security clearances required too. Most aircraft types need DVs these days too - all Fast Jet and ISTAR types, and growing numbers of helos and transport aircraft. So that is another issue. Again, it will come, but having parents with non-UK passports or single-digit years of residency in the UK will stop many - as will criminal records should they be unfortunate to live in an area where such things are commonplace. Again, that is not for the Armed Forces to resolve as these are central Government policies that affect.

PPS. Just looked it up on the web. For a DV you should have resided in the United Kingdom for the 10 years immediately preceding your application but candidates with a minimum of 7 years will be considered. You must be a citizen of the United Kingdom since birth and must not hold (and must never have held) any other nationality or citizenship (including joint nationality) with the exception of dual British Irish citizens. So if you have parents that have registered you for dual citizenship as they hold foreign passports then that will cause recruitment issues.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:10
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The B word, quite right. My understanding of some of the problems in recruiting from those of sub- continent heritage is that the Armed forces are not seen as as a 'Respectable' occupation such as doctor, teacher, solicitor, dentist or commercial pilot. The forces are seen as a job for those who find other employment difficult. Consequently, those offspring are discouraged from joining. So, until the PR gurus can start showing joining the services as a respectable choice, the low recruitment from certain sections of society will remain low. Using positive Action is not the answer.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:20
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
At the bottom of this post is a team that selects itself because it wants to have the very best chance of winning. There are no ‘quotas’, no ‘must reflect the make up of society’ and no ‘woke agendas’. The Armed Forces are the same, especially in a war-fighting role like Aircrew, where we pick a team with the best chance of winning regardless of what they look like. Can we imagine how badly we would do if we selected our 100m team on the basis of appearance rather than performance? Thankfully we don’t and the teams look like this because they are represented by the best that can be found in the UK…

Well that's discrimination in action right there!! How come it's the lads carrying the lasses?
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:22
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Originally Posted by mopardave
Well that's discrimination in action right there!! How come it's the lads carrying the lasses?
Perhaps because the Lasses were flagging more than the lads?
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:32
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So the fact is WE DO SELECT BY APPEARANCE - because too many BAME individuals who would be great in the RAF do not apply in the first place.

Oh we do, do we? So how on earth can you "select" people who don't make themselves available for ........errrrrr, selection! By all means encourage the best to apply, regardless of race or gender but what a ridiculous statement to make!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:33
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Originally Posted by cynicalint
Perhaps because the Lasses were flagging more than the lads?
Ba boom..........'ere all week!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:36
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Christ you lot are thin skinned.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:36
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Originally Posted by cynicalint
Perhaps because the Lasses were flagging more than the lads?

and not all the right way up.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 21:42
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They do look the right way up to me, but most of the flags are wrong.. Possibly all.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:08
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
They do look the right way up to me, but most of the flags are wrong.. Possibly all.
Immaterial as one of the lads had been naughty with the steroids. All lost their silver medals.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:10
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Originally Posted by Cat Techie
Immaterial as one of the lads had been naughty with the steroids. All lost their silver medals.
He'll be popular!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:12
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Originally Posted by a_ross84
Christ you lot are thin skinned.
Errrrrrr, tongue was pressed firmly in cheek there mate!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:12
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D Reg always wanted to fly. Trevor E was a rock officer trainee that never thought about being a pilot until he was medically damaged by frost bite and it was try another path in the Mob. He had of course done IOT before his swap. Both above average as pilots and blokes.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:23
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Originally Posted by Marly Lite
Baldeep. Indeed. This is the racist sexist coddswallop those serving have to put up with. Did a whole day of listening to some idiot from High Wycombe the other day, implying that white males were the root of all evil, whilst letting loose that she had joined the airforce under fraudulent terms and was gaining a comission without undertaking any oficer training.
Not Sarah by any chance?

Jack
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Old 3rd May 2022, 22:46
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Originally Posted by a_ross84
Christ you lot are thin skinned.
If the joke has to be explained to you, then the thickness of skin is irrelevant!
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Old 4th May 2022, 00:41
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Putting one's image out there in the current environment is probably not a good idea. A potential enemy would have them taken out before they got through the base entry to fight a war.
Whoever gets the gig is welcome to it.
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Old 4th May 2022, 04:39
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To note, the anthropometric tests used to fit an aircraft are fundamentally anti-female, until every aircraft with an ejection seat is designed to fit the 5th centile female to the 95th centile male.

if you’re a 50th centile woman you’re unlikely to pass them.
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